Your religion or your livelihood.....

[juddling]

story

 

I almost don't even know where to begin with this story. If your religion forbids you from selling pork products,alcohol, etc. then don't sell them. If your business takes a hit then YOU have a decision to make. either get into another line of business or break your religious 'law'. Sticking your hand out for state money....my money...your money.....Illinois money should not even be considered an option. Especially when the state has no money to pay for things it should be paying for.

 

[StrangeSox]

This is a legitimate problem regardless of whatever religious motive this particular group has:

 

Nashashibi and other activists are backing a bill to create an Illinois Fresh Food Fund, a proposed grant or loan program that would support grocers in neighborhoods that lack easy access to healthy foods. According to the bill, more than half a million Chicagoans — mostly African-American — live in underserved neighborhoods when it comes to proper nutrition.

 

Often a 7/11-type store is the "grocery store" in poorer areas and it's filled with garbage food.

 

But, yeah, not sure where Illinois is going to get the money for that.

[mr_genius]

But, yeah, not sure where Illinois is going to get the money for that.

 

just raise taxes! weee!

[Texsox]

I see the need, but the state can't pay for everything.

[CrimsonWeltall]

story

 

I almost don't even know where to begin with this story. If your religion forbids you from selling pork products,alcohol, etc. then don't sell them. If your business takes a hit then YOU have a decision to make. either get into another line of business or break your religious 'law'. Sticking your hand out for state money....my money...your money.....Illinois money should not even be considered an option. Especially when the state has no money to pay for things it should be paying for.

 

The purpose of the bill is to get help get healthy produce in areas that don't have it. It wasn't made for this guy and people like him. The fact that it helps him with his personal internal dilemma is just a Human Interest Story angle.

[Balta1701]

I see the need, but the state can't pay for everything.

The remarkable thing is...if a "fresh fruits and vegetables program" actually worked, it would save a lot more money than it cost, because after a few years you'd start slashing away at health care costs and increasing productivity.

[StrangeSox]

The remarkable thing is...if a "fresh fruits and vegetables program" actually worked, it would save a lot more money than it cost, because after a few years you'd start slashing away at health care costs and increasing productivity.

 

Maybe. The areas where this is truly a problem probably have low rates of people who can actually afford medical care.

[mr_genius]

The remarkable thing is...if a "fresh fruits and vegetables program" actually worked, it would save a lot more money than it cost, because after a few years you'd start slashing away at health care costs and increasing productivity.

 

For it to work, people would need to actually buy and eat the fresh fruits and vegetables. If there was a demand for this, vendors would have started selling it long ago. I've been in low income neighborhoods, usually with a large Mexican population, that has tons of fresh fruit and vegetable stores. If the locals buy the stuff, people will sell it.

 

Edited June 23, 2010 by mr_genius

[Rex Kickass]

For it to work, people would need to actually buy and eat the fresh fruits and vegetables. If there was a demand for this, vendors would have started selling it long ago. I've been in low income neighborhoods, usually with a large Mexican population, that has tons of fresh fruit and vegetable stores. If the locals buy the stuff, people will sell it.

 

 

The price of produce in urban, lower income areas is shockingly high in comparison to other parts of the urban area, and the quality can be disappointing at best. Best example? Brooklyn v Queens.

[EvilMonkey]

The price of produce in urban, lower income areas is shockingly high in comparison to other parts of the urban area, and the quality can be disappointing at best. Best example? Brooklyn v Queens.

Think of the cost of rent, or to purchase the space, for a Jewel or Meijer-type store. of course it is going to be more. That, plus the added security so they won't be robbed out of business all contribute to higher prices. And as mentioned above, the people have to BUY it.

[StrangeSox]

You don't need a big-box supermarket to sell non-crap food.

[BigSqwert]

You don't need a big-box supermarket to sell non-crap food.

 

Exactly. Something like a Stanley's on North and Elston would be just fine.

[mr_genius]

The price of produce in urban, lower income areas is shockingly high in comparison to other parts of the urban area, and the quality can be disappointing at best. Best example? Brooklyn v Queens.

 

there is a massive produce store in Humbolt park in Chicago that is super cheap (it's been there a long time, well before gentrification). we don't need some big government program to sell vegetables in a neighborhood where there is no demand and no one is going to buy.

Edited June 23, 2010 by mr_genius

[Rex Kickass]

Think of the cost of rent, or to purchase the space, for a Jewel or Meijer-type store. of course it is going to be more. That, plus the added security so they won't be robbed out of business all contribute to higher prices. And as mentioned above, the people have to BUY it.

People do buy it. I know, I lived there.

 

I had the choice between a supermarket in my neighborhood which stank of rotting produce and sold basic produce in poor quality for high prices (which, btw, people bought constantly) or spending 45 minutes getting there by subway, or walking three miles to get to a supermarket that had a decent supply of produce in reasonably good quality and a reasonable price.

 

Truth is that in poorer neighborhoods in urban areas, food prices tend to be higher and the quality lower.

[Jenksismyhero]

People do buy it. I know, I lived there.

 

I had the choice between a supermarket in my neighborhood which stank of rotting produce and sold basic produce in poor quality for high prices (which, btw, people bought constantly) or spending 45 minutes getting there by subway, or walking three miles to get to a supermarket that had a decent supply of produce in reasonably good quality and a reasonable price.

 

Truth is that in poorer neighborhoods in urban areas, food prices tend to be higher and the quality lower.

 

Which is why those areas should allow Wal-mart to come in, but at least here in Chicago, they can't, because the unions suck.

[GoSox05]

Which is why those areas should allow Wal-mart to come in, but at least here in Chicago, they can't, because the unions suck.

 

I know right. I think 8.75 an hour is way too much. They should only make 3 bucks an hour.

[StrangeSox]

Which is why those areas should allow Wal-mart to come in, but at least here in Chicago, they can't, because the unions suck.

 

Yes, Walmart is the answer to the problems of impoverished areas. LOL.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes, Walmart is the answer to the problems of impoverished areas. LOL.

 

If you had heard the 9th ward alderman this morning on the radio I bet you'd change your mind. His ward has the biggest "food desert" in the city, 40% unemployment, the most crime in the city, the worst health in the city, ZERO hope. You have a huge company offering to pay MORE than minimum wage for jobs (1 BILLION to the city). They've signed a neighborhood benefit agreements (requiring them to hire locals) and they've signed a public works agreements (promised to use unions to build the stores).

 

There's not a single argument against them at this point. It's politics, and the poorest of poor in the city are being hurt by it.

[Rex Kickass]

If you had heard the 9th ward alderman this morning on the radio I bet you'd change your mind. His ward has the biggest "food desert" in the city, 40% unemployment, the most crime in the city, the worst health in the city, ZERO hope. You have a huge company offering to pay MORE than minimum wage for jobs (1 BILLION to the city). They've signed a neighborhood benefit agreements (requiring them to hire locals) and they've signed a public works agreements (promised to use unions to build the stores).

 

There's not a single argument against them at this point. It's politics, and the poorest of poor in the city are being hurt by it.

 

Walmart doesn't put themselves in those neighborhoods. Trenton, where I live now, has some of the worst neighborhoods and some of the poorest neighborhoods in the state. They also have an Urban Enterprise Zone which cuts sales tax in half and plenty of areas to make something like that happen.

 

So where is the Walmart? In Lawrenceville, 15 minutes by car away in a city where a lot of people rely on a poor bus system for transportation. It's funny, this isn't exclusive to Walmart either. Seemingly every supermarket in my city sits literally just across the city limits in a neighboring municipality.

 

If Chicago asked Walmart to come in - do you think they'd open shop in the 9th ward? My money would be on "not a chance."

[StrangeSox]

If you had heard the 9th ward alderman this morning on the radio I bet you'd change your mind. His ward has the biggest "food desert" in the city, 40% unemployment, the most crime in the city, the worst health in the city, ZERO hope. You have a huge company offering to pay MORE than minimum wage for jobs (1 BILLION to the city). They've signed a neighborhood benefit agreements (requiring them to hire locals) and they've signed a public works agreements (promised to use unions to build the stores).

 

There's not a single argument against them at this point. It's politics, and the poorest of poor in the city are being hurt by it.

 

Sure there's an argument against them. They don't really pay a livable wage and their purchasing practices drive all the decent-paying, lower-skilled jobs overseas. So they're stuck working crappy Walmart jobs for little pay and little or no benefits while being instructed on how to best maximize their federal and state subsidies. Walmart passes the buck on to the taxpayer*. They also sell a whole lot of crap with bad manufacturing practices and exhibit little to no care for how and where their products are produced, so long as they get them cheap, cheap, cheap!

 

*edit: and as rex points out, they rely on huge tax breaks to come in and build in the first place.

Edited June 23, 2010 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

Walmart doesn't put themselves in those neighborhoods. Trenton, where I live now, has some of the worst neighborhoods and some of the poorest neighborhoods in the state. They also have an Urban Enterprise Zone which cuts sales tax in half and plenty of areas to make something like that happen.

 

So where is the Walmart? In Lawrenceville, 15 minutes by car away in a city where a lot of people rely on a poor bus system for transportation. It's funny, this isn't exclusive to Walmart either. Seemingly every supermarket in my city sits literally just across the city limits in a neighboring municipality.

 

If Chicago asked Walmart to come in - do you think they'd open shop in the 9th ward? My money would be on "not a chance."

 

They've offered to build several dozen stores. I find it highly unlikely an alderman would be advocating for those stores so strongly if he wasn't going to get one in the ward he represents.

[Balta1701]

They've offered to build several dozen stores. I find it highly unlikely an alderman would be advocating for those stores so strongly if he wasn't going to get one in the ward he represents.

Are Alderman able to take in campaign contributions?

[Jenksismyhero]

Sure there's an argument against them. They don't really pay a livable wage and their purchasing practices drive all the decent-paying, lower-skilled jobs overseas. So they're stuck working crappy Walmart jobs for little pay and little or no benefits while being instructed on how to best maximize their federal and state subsidies. Walmart passes the buck on to the taxpayer*. They also sell a whole lot of crap with bad manufacturing practices and exhibit little to no care for how and where their products are produced, so long as they get them cheap, cheap, cheap!

 

*edit: and as rex points out, they rely on huge tax breaks to come in and build in the first place.

 

I consider an $8.75/hr job more liveable than $0.00/hr lack of a job. But maybe I'm crazy. And who cares if they get tax breaks? They'd bring in hundreds of millions of dollars a year in new tax revenue, not to mention the tens of thousands of jobs they'd create.

 

And they don't sell crap. That's such a false statement. They sell "crap" like every other store sells crap. It all comes from the same source.

[Rex Kickass]

They've offered to build several dozen stores. I find it highly unlikely an alderman would be advocating for those stores so strongly if he wasn't going to get one in the ward he represents.

 

So Wal-Mart has cut a backroom deal with the alderman? Good!

 

I don't necessarily think that a big box retailer like Walmart would be a bad thing for a lot of urban areas that need help attracting good access to food. I'm just saying that these big stores don't come in without a huge tax break... and the way I see it, if you can use the same money to help fortify existing small business and create more opportunities for residents in more neighborhoods rather than one big market in one neighborhood, I think that is the sounder policy move.

[StrangeSox]

I consider an $8.75/hr job more liveable than $0.00/hr lack of a job. But maybe I'm crazy. And who cares if they get tax breaks? They'd bring in hundreds of millions of dollars a year in new tax revenue, not to mention the tens of thousands of jobs they'd create.

 

It supports a perpetual cycle of poverty and shovels a lot of the cost burden onto the tax payer while Walmart rakes in big bucks. Why should they be receiving large tax breaks on both real estate tax and on paying their workers?

 

And they don't sell crap. That's such a false statement. They sell "crap" like every other store sells crap. It all comes from the same source.

 

A lot of stores sell crap with little regard for how or where it was manufactured. Walmart is one of them.