Adam Dunn Trade rumor thread

[Vance Law]

Im sorry but there is just no way anyone expected that Thome would turn back the clock.

 

He didn't need to put up a 1.000 OPS. He didn't need to turn back the clock to be clearly, significantly better than Kotsay. He could turn forward the clock, Thome at 50 years old is better than Kotsay today.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Vance Law

[Soxbadger]

Its my opinion that the Sox were some what in a money bind last season after getting Rios/Peavy and completely flopping on the field. Worried about bad attendance to start this season (which happened), the White Sox were going on the cheap with free agents, feeling that they added Rios/Peavy.

 

Id love if the Sox had unlimited resources, but I just think they were at the top of what they could spend.

 

The real mistake was adding Pierre and his salary even if it is only 3mil/5mil the next 2 seasons.

 

Its obvious that they wanted to change the dynamic of the team from a slow plodding one dimensional offense, to something else. Whether or not that something else is good, who knows. But I was honestly tired of seeing slow guys stepping up to the plate and swinging for the fences every at bat.

[iamshack]

I was all for a Branyan/Gomes platoon

I do not recall that.

[fathom]

I do not recall that.

 

I'm the biggest J. Gomes fan around. I specifically remember talking about this platoon in that jimh thread.

[SoxFan562004]

Don't think it's been brought up but Thome also has the benefit of being in a solid lineup this year, getting pitches to hit. Dunn meanwhile you stay out of the zone on and take your chances with the next guy.

Willingham with his .903 OPS and 143 OPS+ or the guy in-front of Dunn with the .892 OPS and 138 OPS+ are very good.

[Kalapse]

Its my opinion that the Sox were some what in a money bind last season after getting Rios/Peavy and completely flopping on the field. Worried about bad attendance to start this season (which happened), the White Sox were going on the cheap with free agents, feeling that they added Rios/Peavy.

 

Id love if the Sox had unlimited resources, but I just think they were at the top of what they could spend.

 

The real mistake was adding Pierre and his salary even if it is only 3mil/5mil the next 2 seasons.

 

Its obvious that they wanted to change the dynamic of the team from a slow plodding one dimensional offense, to something else. Whether or not that something else is good, who knows. But I was honestly tired of seeing slow guys stepping up to the plate and swinging for the fences every at bat.

Then why did they offer Damon $6M in February?

[Soxbadger]

Its not Kotsay vs Thome.

 

They are not even similar arguments.

 

The decision on Thome was entirely independent of the decision on Kotsay.

 

They didnt think Thome had anything left, I honestly agreed with them. Maybe we were wrong, or maybe Thome has just been remarkably hot in limited at bats and will cool down. Who knows. But Kotsay was kept as back up 1b/of etc.

 

Thome cant back up any position. If we kept Kotsay, the Sox would have no 1b back up. Theyd have had to get a guy who could play 1b, unless you want to start getting creative and putting new guys out there.

 

Ive never even heard of a back up DH.

 

(edit)

 

Kalapse,

 

You know the answer as well as I do.

 

When the exact player that they want is available, the Sox often will stretch the budget. They felt that Damon was that player (high obp, etc) and was going to bring them exactly what they needed.

 

It wasnt like they had $6mil disposable cash, and if Damon didnt take it they were going to give it to some one else. That money was a 1 time exception.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Soxbadger

[iamshack]

Its my opinion that the Sox were some what in a money bind last season after getting Rios/Peavy and completely flopping on the field. Worried about bad attendance to start this season (which happened), the White Sox were going on the cheap with free agents, feeling that they added Rios/Peavy.

 

Id love if the Sox had unlimited resources, but I just think they were at the top of what they could spend.

 

The real mistake was adding Pierre and his salary even if it is only 3mil/5mil the next 2 seasons.

 

Its obvious that they wanted to change the dynamic of the team from a slow plodding one dimensional offense, to something else. Whether or not that something else is good, who knows. But I was honestly tired of seeing slow guys stepping up to the plate and swinging for the fences every at bat.

Thome would have signed for less money, before some of these other acquisitions.

 

That is no excuse.

[SoxFan562004]

Its my opinion that the Sox were some what in a money bind last season after getting Rios/Peavy and completely flopping on the field. Worried about bad attendance to start this season (which happened), the White Sox were going on the cheap with free agents, feeling that they added Rios/Peavy.

 

Id love if the Sox had unlimited resources, but I just think they were at the top of what they could spend.

 

The real mistake was adding Pierre and his salary even if it is only 3mil/5mil the next 2 seasons.

 

Its obvious that they wanted to change the dynamic of the team from a slow plodding one dimensional offense, to something else. Whether or not that something else is good, who knows. But I was honestly tired of seeing slow guys stepping up to the plate and swinging for the fences every at bat.

Thome would not have been a burden to this team financially, it was a management decision to not keep him due to his lack of flexibility and Mark Kotsay doing OK in a full time role at the end of last year,

[Kalapse]

Its not Kotsay vs Thome.

 

They are not even similar arguments.

 

The decision on Thome was entirely independent of the decision on Kotsay.

 

They didnt think Thome had anything left, I honestly agreed with them. Maybe we were wrong, or maybe Thome has just been remarkably hot in limited at bats and will cool down. Who knows. But Kotsay was kept as back up 1b/of etc.

 

Thome cant back up any position. If we kept Kotsay, the Sox would have no 1b back up. Theyd have had to get a guy who could play 1b, unless you want to start getting creative and putting new guys out there.

 

Ive never even heard of a back up DH.

Andruw Jones and Mark Teahen play 1B

[SoxFan562004]

Its not Kotsay vs Thome.

 

They are not even similar arguments.

 

The decision on Thome was entirely independent of the decision on Kotsay.

 

They didnt think Thome had anything left, I honestly agreed with them. Maybe we were wrong, or maybe Thome has just been remarkably hot in limited at bats and will cool down. Who knows. But Kotsay was kept as back up 1b/of etc.

 

Thome cant back up any position. If we kept Kotsay, the Sox would have no 1b back up. Theyd have had to get a guy who could play 1b, unless you want to start getting creative and putting new guys out there.

 

Ive never even heard of a back up DH.

I have zero problem with Kotsay being on the White Sox, the problem with is the role they are expecting him to fill. He is a solid back-up and PH, not an everyday player

[ThunderBolt]

Thome is signed to the same contract as Mark Kotsay. There’s no financial argument to be made here.

[Kalapse]

I'm the biggest J. Gomes fan around. I specifically remember talking about this platoon in that jimh thread.

Sorry, that's exactly what I meant before, but you stated it a lot better than I did. It's the cast of characters we're looking to play at the DH, and not the actual rotating DH idea. If we were using Branyan and Gomes as our rotation DH, I would be extremely happy with that.

You're welcome.

[iamshack]

I'm the biggest J. Gomes fan around. I specifically remember talking about this platoon in that jimh thread.

Oh alright...I avoided that entire fiasco because I had no clue who he was.

 

I do recall you talking about Gomes about 3 weeks ago.

[Soxbadger]

Youre taking my arguments out of context.

 

The money argument was for Kalapse and why the Sox did not get a suitable DH replacement.

 

The argument for Thome was that the Sox thought he was done and didnt have roster space for a back up DH who cant play any position.

 

(Edit)

 

If you can find one post where I said the Sox didnt sign Thome for financial reasons, feel free. But ive said they didnt sign him because he looked horrible and didnt play any field positions, it wasnt about money.

 

The reason the Sox didnt sign another DH (THAT IS OUTSIDE OF THOME FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO CANT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND) is due to financial constraints.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Soxbadger

[Kalapse]

didnt have roster space for a back up DH who cant play any position.

Except they did. The guy who they signed to platoon with Kotsay plays all the same positions.

[Princess Dye]

Great argumentation soxbadger, you should be a lawyer or something

[SoxFan562004]

Youre taking my arguments out of context.

 

The money argument was for Kalapse and why the Sox did not get a suitable DH replacement.

 

The argument for Thome was that the Sox thought he was done and didnt have roster space for a back up DH who cant play any position.

 

(Edit)

 

If you can find one post where I said the Sox didnt sign Thome for financial reasons, feel free. But ive said they didnt sign him because he looked horrible and didnt play any field positions, it wasnt about money.

 

The reason the Sox didnt sign another DH (THAT IS OUTSIDE OF THOME FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO CANT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND) is due to financial constraints.

it depends if you believe JR or not, he said the team had extra money, before the season and said it last week again, if they feel the right player is there. So basically the money is there according to JR, it has to be the right player for the team, and apparently that wasn't there in the offseason but could be between now and July 31st.

 

I know a lot of people here wanted Damon, and I put myself in that group, but he has an OPS+ of 102 right now SLG .391 and his best attribute of .365 OBP and Matsui has an OPS of .769. Granted those are better numbers than what Kotsay has put up this year, but it's not like those two would have a dramatic shift on this line-up up until this point of the year, an upgrade if they're in there? Yes, but nothing crazy.

 

I buy the scenario that the Sox had/have extra money to add a bat, looked at the landscape, determined nobody was worth it at this point and see if they can get a better impact bat in mid-season with a creative GM.

Edited June 30, 2010 by SoxFan562004

[fathom]

You're welcome.

 

Thank you!

[Soxbadger]

Kalapse,

 

Youll have to be more specific im not good with pronouns.

 

Do you mean Andruw Jones played the same positions as Kotsay?

 

Princess,

 

I may not be a lawyer but I slept at Holiday Inn Express one time!

 

Soxfan,

 

It seems that Jerry usually leaves a little in reserve for that special impact player. They didnt see anyone and thought it was a good business move to save the money for a rainy day. Who knows if they would have spent the money wisely.

 

But maybe the money they saved will allow us to trade for a bigger impact player than we otherwise would have.

[SoxFan562004]

Kalapse,

 

Youll have to be more specific im not good with pronouns.

 

Do you mean Andruw Jones played the same positions as Kotsay?

 

Princess,

 

I may not be a lawyer but I slept at Holiday Inn Express one time!

 

Soxfan,

 

It seems that Jerry usually leaves a little in reserve for that special impact player. They didnt see anyone and thought it was a good business move to save the money for a rainy day. Who knows if they would have spent the money wisely.

 

But maybe the money they saved will allow us to trade for a bigger impact player than we otherwise would have.

Exactly my point, I think it's kind of a smart way to go about it, especially considering bats tend to move around the deadline, as I posted before they might not be able to get a lefty, but I imagine KW can find a bat around a 102 or 106 OPS+ which is where Damon and Matsui are right now

[iamshack]

Youre taking my arguments out of context.

 

The money argument was for Kalapse and why the Sox did not get a suitable DH replacement.

 

The argument for Thome was that the Sox thought he was done and didnt have roster space for a back up DH who cant play any position.

 

(Edit)

 

If you can find one post where I said the Sox didnt sign Thome for financial reasons, feel free. But ive said they didnt sign him because he looked horrible and didnt play any field positions, it wasnt about money.

 

The reason the Sox didnt sign another DH (THAT IS OUTSIDE OF THOME FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO CANT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND) is due to financial constraints.

 

There is no "the Sox thought he was done" argument. Kenny and JR wanted him back. They tried and tried and tried to convince Ozzie. Ozzie claimed he would not play Thome enough and that he respected him too much to sit him on the bench 5 or 6 days a week.

 

I don't believe they even gave Jim a chance to accept whether he would sit on the bench for 5 or 6 days a week.

 

While you would like to separate the two decisions, 1) to not sign Jim Thome and 2) to not replace him with a viable option because they did not have the resources, you simply cannot. It is unconscionable to pass on an .864 OPS player for $2 million and then not replace him because you have no resources.

 

You simply cannot point to anything statistically significant in Jim's numbers last year to justify that decision.

Edited June 30, 2010 by iamshack

[SoxFan562004]

There is no "the Sox thought he was done" argument. Kenny and JR wanted him back. They tried and tried and tried to convince Ozzie. Ozzie claimed he would not play Thome enough and that he respected him too much to sit him on the bench 5 or 6 days a week.

 

I don't believe they even gave Jim a chance to accept whether he would sit on the bench for 5 or 6 days a week.

 

While you would like to separate the two decisions, 1) to not sign Jim Thome and 2) to not replace him with a viable option because they did not have the resources, you simply cannot. It is unconscionable to pass on an .864 OPS player for $2 million and then not replace him because you have no resources.

 

You simply cannot point to anything statistically significant whatsoever to justify that decision.

forget resources, there was realistically nobody they were going to find at that point to replace

[Soxbadger]

Ozzie, Sox, does it really matter who was the driving force behind the decision?

 

The end result is that the Sox management agreed with Ozzie's assessment at the end of the day. Jerry and Kenny could have signed Thome and forced Ozzie to play him.

 

Ozzie may have been the most vocal, but if his argument won, it means that the others agreed with him at the end of the day.

 

If anyone thought Thome would put up a consistent .864 he probably would have been back.

 

I just think Ozzie (who watched the guy every day) didnt think he had much left in the tank. You arent sitting a guy 5-6 days a week if hes performing. Its not like Kenny and Reinsdorf were saying "Oh hes going to be a 1.00+ ops player" and Ozzies response was "Well where can I find room for that in my line up."

 

The argument was more likely:

 

Kenny: Hey Thome may have a little juice left, he wants to come back cheap, lets do it.

 

Ozzie: Im not so sure about that. He was pretty brutal at the end of last year and looked like his bat is slow. If you sign him and I have him on my bench I wont have as much flexibility. If Konerko goes down, who will play 1b? Thome cant field, Im not so sure hes even worth a spot if he is free.

 

/end scene

 

In retrospect Thome was much better than ANY of them thought. But that is like saying "The Cubs should have never picked Prior 2nd because he would bust." Its easy to predict the past.

[SoxAce]

His bat looked slow, he looked like he was done. Its just really easy right now to second guess the decision.

 

Yet there was many of us calling to bring back Thome in January/February when we knew KW was not gonna go out and get another bat, but stick with the Kotsay/Jones platoon which many here knew was a bad idea. I even warned people about Jones hot start to go down because he did the same thing last year with Texas and wanted him traded when he was still hitting in the .270s (.900+ OPS, etc..) but of course didn't happen. And I'm sure the Twins and their scouts are also glad they didn't listen to you badge regarding Thome.

 

I just think Ozzie (who watched the guy every day) didnt think he had much left in the tank.

 

Yet the fans knew he was wrong, but of course we don't "know the game" cause we didn't play it in the big leagues..

 

This is the same guy who loved Wise especially considering his sample size in 08 (I think it was 08) to bring him back and bat him lead-off. Ozzie is not the best evaluator of talent, especially when you rather have a guy steal 50 bases than hit 50 homeruns. Don't worry though, plenty of blame needs to go to KW as well.

Edited June 30, 2010 by SoxAce