The history of the Soxtalk Whipping Boy

[Kalapse]

you know, were'nt people more pissed at ozzie in 2006 for playing mack in CF? I probably could misremember a lot of posts from 4 years ago, but it's like hating...i guess vizquel...they were great if you played them as the super utility bench guy, but not when you play them every day, especially mack in his worst position probably, you expose why they are utility guys.

 

SOXTALK OVERLOVED GUYS: SEE ROSS GLOAD

All I remember from 2006 is defending Mackowiak tooth and nail. It was bulls*** that Ozzie kept trotting him out there, I felt horrible for Rob.

[justBLAZE]

This year? Williams by a landslide, Linebrink and Kotsay a distant third.

[SoxAce]

This year? Williams by a landslide, Linebrink and Kotsay a distant third.

 

Yea. Randy Williams and it isn't even close for me. Teahen though gets ripped constantly (even when he doesn't play) and I am still stunned by it. Reminds me of the Swisher hate that I'll never understand. (not talking defense, which I can understand) Pierre is my whipping boy, and I rip him alot (and would still rip him) but now I can't because I said I wouldn't till the ASB after he broke up Lilly's no hitter. (that one thread about a new lead-off hitter is killing me to not post in BTW.. )

Edited June 30, 2010 by SoxAce

[iamshack]

Yea. Randy Williams and it isn't even close for me. Teahen though gets ripped constantly (even when he doesn't play) and I am still stunned by it. Reminds me of the Swisher hate that I'll never understand. (not talking defense, which I can understand) Pierre is my whipping boy, and I rip him alot (and would still rip him) but now I can't because I said I wouldn't till the ASB after he broke up Tilly's no hitter. (that one thread about a new lead-off hitter is killing me to not post in BTW.. )

Well, I kind of understand "whipping boy" to mean a guy that gets an unnecessary amount of criticism for some hard to articulate reason. Kind of how I say Kotsay gets a disproportionate amount of s*** for what he actually is responsible for.

 

And if that is the case, I have to say Mark Kotsay. The guy didn't campaign to get this many at bats. He didn't freaking promise that he would perform to some ridiculous level. He doesn't brag about his talents like Andruw. He is a great clubhouse guy. He is a professional. He does anything we ask him to do.

 

So he is old and he sort of sucks. It's not his fault his manager keeps penciling him in the damn lineup.

 

 

[GoodAsGould]

Really I guess the 3 nominees have to be Kotsay, Teahen, and Randy Williams since most people are still hoping for Beckham to pan out. The way I see it is Randy Williams has too little impact and if all goes right will be gone in a few days so have to take him out and Teahen with his injury makes the clear winner Kotsay who is an automatic double play with a runner on 1st.

[lostfan]

All I remember from 2006 is defending Mackowiak tooth and nail. It was bulls*** that Ozzie kept trotting him out there, I felt horrible for Rob.

I was actually sad to see him go. I'd get pissed off when he'd play CF, it was obvious he couldn't do it and that was where he was worst on the field. Might as well put Konerko out there. But Ozzie kept putting him out there, again and again. And again. And again.

Edited June 30, 2010 by lostfan

[whitesoxfan101]

'05 was definitely Jizzcan IMO, '07 was Erstad as well. I think Linebrink deserves some sort of lifetime achievement award, although I think you could argue he's the '08 overall winner as well. His struggles, which mounted as the season went on, as well as the realization that his contract was absolutely awful (although many realized that from the moment he signed it) did him no favors. Recently, whoever is Ozzie's pet usually seems to get the title (Erstad in '07, Wise last year, Kotsay this year).

Edited June 30, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[lostfan]

If there is Pods hate on this board (not talking 2009 when he was actually good) then it's a correction to the excessive ballwashing and unrealistic expectations.

[iamshack]

If there is Pods hate on this board (not talking 2009 when he was actually good) then it's a correction to the excessive ballwashing and unrealistic expectations.

I know this is ridiculous, but I mentioned this in the game thread and I'll mention it again here.

 

There seems to be some irrational jealousy against guys on this team with hot wives

[whitesoxfan101]

Soxtalk whipping boy is a title only taken on by those universally hated. People like Scott Linebrink, Andy Gonzalez, Jizzcan (I don't think I've refered to Luis Vizcaino by his real name since I first saw that nickname), Darin Erstad, DeWayne Wise, Mark Kotsay, people like that (I wasn't here pre '05, so I can't speak to those players).

 

The only player I didn't feel earned the whipping boy status he actually ended up with was Jizzcan. He had a really catchy nickname, and a few blowups in 2005 (I recall a REALLY bad one early in the year), but he actually wasn't too bad for a guy pitching in the role he pitched in. He just got a lot of hate as basically the last guy in an otherwise amazing bullpen that year.

Edited June 30, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[iamshack]

Soxtalk whipping boy is a title only taken on by those universally hated. People like Scott Linebrink, Andy Gonzalez, Jizzcan (I don't think I've refered to Luis Vizcaino by his real name since I first saw that nickname), Darin Erstad, DeWayne Wise, Mark Kotsay, people like that (I wasn't here pre '05, so I can't speak to those players).

 

The only player I didn't feel earned the whipping boy status he actually ended up with was Jizzcan. He had a really catchy nickname, and a few blowups in 2005 (I recall a REALLY bad one early in the year), but he actually wasn't too bad for a guy pitching in the role he pitched in. He just got a lot of hate as basically the last guy in an otherwise amazing bullpen that year.

Vizcaino was actually quite solid for us for much of that season. Unfortunately, he had to take a few outings for the team (much like Tony Pena now) which blew up his numbers and skewed the hell out of them.

[whitesoxfan101]

Vizcaino was actually quite solid for us for much of that season. Unfortunately, he had to take a few outings for the team (much like Tony Pena now) which blew up his numbers and skewed the hell out of them.

 

Yeah, Pena this year and Vizcaino in '05 is a pretty good comparison. I guess Vizcaino just stood out as "bad" since the rest of the pen was basically ridiculous, although Marte had a mega high WHIP IIRC and was for sure falling off.

 

Speaking of whipping boys who probably didn't deserve it in our fanbase, Damaso Marte. He was absolutely awesome in 2002 and 2003, even 2004 was pretty good. But he just drove everybody nuts.

[Flash Tizzle]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...amp;mode=linear

 

Nothing unified Soxtalk more than the collective hatred of Billy Koch. What an awesome thread to read through.

 

That thread also reminded me of the old YNOT days on Soxtalk....

[stretchstretch]

2005: Chris Duhon

 

Illini fans will know what I'm talking about

[SoxAce]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...amp;mode=linear

 

Nothing unified Soxtalk more than the collective hatred of Billy Koch. What an awesome thread to read through.

 

That thread also reminded me of the old YNOT days on Soxtalk....

 

LMAO! Wow good times. Tizzle FTW! It is Koch by a landslide.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just goes to show what happens when closers can't get saves. Booby still gets saves and still gets a lot of grief.

[Balta1701]

I was actually sad to see him go. I'd get pissed off when he'd play CF, it was obvious he couldn't do it and that was where he was worst on the field. Might as well put Konerko out there. But Ozzie kept putting him out there, again and again. And again. And again.

I know it doesn't show up in the UZR numbers and such...But I'll go to my grave saying that if Mack didn't play CF from June 1 on, we'd have won that division.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...amp;mode=linear

 

Nothing unified Soxtalk more than the collective hatred of Billy Koch. What an awesome thread to read through.

 

That thread also reminded me of the old YNOT days on Soxtalk....

 

Hilarious.

 

Also funny seeing so many old names now banned haha.

[Milkman delivers]

Yeah, Pena this year and Vizcaino in '05 is a pretty good comparison. I guess Vizcaino just stood out as "bad" since the rest of the pen was basically ridiculous, although Marte had a mega high WHIP IIRC and was for sure falling off.

 

Speaking of whipping boys who probably didn't deserve it in our fanbase, Damaso Marte. He was absolutely awesome in 2002 and 2003, even 2004 was pretty good. But he just drove everybody nuts.

 

It would be a tough call to name a whipping boy for 2005. Timo, Vizcaino, and Marte were the top 3. Vizcaino did not deserve it.

 

I believe Marte did. It seemed that every time he came in with inherited runners, they all scored. And when he came in with the bases empty, he'd put a few guys on and one of the studs of that year (Cotts, Politte, or Hermanson) would come in and clean up his mess.

[witesoxfan]

I know it doesn't show up in the UZR numbers and such...But I'll go to my grave saying that if Mack didn't play CF from June 1 on, we'd have won that division.

 

That entire team took one giant step backwards in the second half. The offense went from an .829 OPS in the first half to a .778 in the second, the starter's ERA went from 4.60 to 4.71, and the relievers ERA went from 4.06 to 5.14. There are a lot of reasons that '06 team failed, and Mackowiak's defense in CF was just one of them.

[Balta1701]

That entire team took one giant step backwards in the second half. The offense went from an .829 OPS in the first half to a .778 in the second, the starter's ERA went from 4.60 to 4.71, and the relievers ERA went from 4.06 to 5.14. There are a lot of reasons that '06 team failed, and Mackowiak's defense in CF was just one of them.

I know all of that. But like I said, I'll go to my grave saying that if all we did was change 1 thing...if all we did was put Mackowiak on the bench and Anderson in CF from June 1 on, we'd have won that division. He cost us at least 1 run in every game he was out there, and usually his misplay wound up leading directly to a big inning, longer workload for the starter, and a loss.

[whitesoxfan101]

That entire team took one giant step backwards in the second half. The offense went from an .829 OPS in the first half to a .778 in the second, the starter's ERA went from 4.60 to 4.71, and the relievers ERA went from 4.06 to 5.14. There are a lot of reasons that '06 team failed, and Mackowiak's defense in CF was just one of them.

 

I agree with Balta that it could be reasonably argued that Mack's defense in CF cost us 5+ games (and thus a playoff spot) in 2006, even when you take the solid offensive year I believe he had into account (I'm just about positive his average and on base were both quite high). However, the bolded is the thing that really killed us the 2nd half of that year IMO. The offense did dropoff, and defense really hurt us, but I still think we could have ended up in the playoffs if not for our relievers dying. The '05 bullpen pixie dust picked a really bad time to run out for us.

Edited June 30, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[witesoxfan]

I agree with Balta that it could be reasonably argued that Mack's defense in CF cost us 5+ games (and thus a playoff spot) in 2006, even when you take the solid offensive year I believe he had into account (I'm just about positive his average and on base were both quite high). However, the bolded is the thing that really killed us the 2nd half of that year IMO. The offense did dropoff, and defense really hurt us, but I still think we could have ended up in the playoffs if not for our relievers dying. The '05 bullpen pixie dust picked a really bad time to run out for us.

 

The crazy thing was that Williams actually made 3 acquisitions to help that bullpen out, and all 3 were varying levels of adequate (Riske), good (Thornton), and great (MacDougal), and it was still just terrible. Jenks blew up in July and September of that year, the league finally realized that Neal Cotts only had 1 pitch, Cliff Politte had a worse season than Randy Williams is having now, Brandon McCarthy was not a middle reliever, Boone Logan was certainly not ready to be a relief pitcher for the Sox...it was ugly all-around.

 

In 2005, 4 White Sox starters finished with an ERA below 4.00 (and Freddy was the highest at 3.87)...in 2006, no White Sox starter had an ERA below 4.25, and Contreras was the best at 4.27 (and in his final 22 starts, he posted a 5.32 ERA). The magic had definitely worn off.

 

[Texsox]

I guess we're limiting this to players. I remember Kenny Williams holding a little press conference circa 2002 and most were hoping he was announcing his resignation. Instead he announced he just saved a bunch of money on his car insurance or some such nonsense. And I guess Jerry Manual is just too easy after he won Manager of the Year.

 

 

[Quin]

The crazy thing was that Williams actually made 3 acquisitions to help that bullpen out, and all 3 were varying levels of adequate (Riske), good (Thornton), and great (MacDougal), and it was still just terrible. Jenks blew up in July and September of that year, the league finally realized that Neal Cotts only had 1 pitch, Cliff Politte had a worse season than Randy Williams is having now, Brandon McCarthy was not a middle reliever, Boone Logan was certainly not ready to be a relief pitcher for the Sox...it was ugly all-around.

 

In 2005, 4 White Sox starters finished with an ERA below 4.00 (and Freddy was the highest at 3.87)...in 2006, no White Sox starter had an ERA below 4.25, and Contreras was the best at 4.27 (and in his final 22 starts, he posted a 5.32 ERA). The magic had definitely worn off.

 

In Kalapse's "Holy S***, Randy Williams is the 6th Worst Reliever of All Time" formula, Politte was 20th.

 

That just made me think of how incredibly bad Randy is, and he gets the nod because unlike Kotsay, he doesn't grind into double plays and isn't the most complete player on the team.