Ozzie, Gardenhire, or Leyland?

[SoxFan1]

As someone from Southeast Michigan, most of my friends are Tigers fans, and you are absolutely right. They HATE Leyland, and make some pretty persuasive arguments as to why. If you think Ozzie makes some headscratchers, just try watching Leyland for a full season.

 

That said, probably Gardenhire by a slim-ish margin

Ya, I go to school in Michigan and am there for 9 months out of the year surrounded by Tigers and Wings fans. Its horrible.

 

And what people blame Ozzie for doing with guys like Kotsay or Mackowiak or whatever, Tigers fans have been crying about this for years with Brandon Inge.

[chw42]

Ya, I go to school in Michigan and am there for 9 months out of the year surrounded by Tigers and Wings fans. Its horrible.

 

And what people blame Ozzie for doing with guys like Kotsay or Mackowiak or whatever, Tigers fans have been crying about this for years with Brandon Inge.

 

What's wrong with Brandon Inge? I know he can't hit, but his defense is pretty damn good.

[SoxFan1]

What's wrong with Brandon Inge? I know he can't hit, but his defense is pretty damn good.

Except it really isn't. He'll make some spectacular plays at 3rd, but he also makes some dumb mistakes and will botch routine plays.

[chw42]

Except it really isn't. He'll make some spectacular plays at 3rd, but he also makes some dumb mistakes and will botch routine plays.

 

Eh, I think this is the same thought process people had about Alexei. Overall, Inge is a good fielder. If sure handedness was the measure of good defense, Jeter would be one of the best defenders in baseball - he's clearly not.

Edited July 5, 2010 by chw42

[SoxFan1]

Eh, I think this is the same thought process people had about Alexei. Overall, Inge is a good fielder. If sure handedness was the measure of good defense, Jeter would be one of the best defenders in baseball - he's clearly not.

Except Inge really does suck. Like, a lot.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Except it really isn't. He'll make some spectacular plays at 3rd, but he also makes some dumb mistakes and will botch routine plays.

In other words he's human just like every player and every manager put under a microscope. All most fans do is gripe about players inadequacies . It's all well and good for message board fodder. I'd imagine if a player fielded and batted 1.000 we'd still hear about how he wears his hat wrong or how ugly he is or w/e else the sheep are bleating about that day.

[iamshack]

I'm sure if we watched as many Twins games and Tigers games as we do White Sox games, we would think their managers are idiotic too.

 

I think Gardenhire is probably the most technically and strategically sound, while Ozzie is probably the most fun to play for. Leyland is just an old cigarette-smoking curmudgeon.

[SoxAce]

Gardenhire, by alot.

[SoxFan1]

In other words he's human just like every player and every manager put under a microscope. All most fans do is gripe about players inadequacies . It's all well and good for message board fodder. I'd imagine if a player fielded and batted 1.000 we'd still hear about how he wears his hat wrong or how ugly he is or w/e else the sheep are bleating about that day.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. Inge is a pretty bad player that Leyland loves and plays all the time, similar to what Ozzie has done with certain guys. Thats all I'm saying.

[The Gooch]

I will answer this question on October 3rd

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

No, but these three are all really bad at something, not just bad.

See what you did there ? Why couldn't you say they all have strengths and weaknesses . Its quite possible that these guys have the players respect and can do a good job despite playing a hunch once in a while or going by the book and not having it work out the way you want it to turn out. They have 25 different people to manage with varying degrees of skill . There will always be situation where you have to use the ones at the end of the bench in a crucial situation. Every decision is not cut and dried. You can't use stats all the time to manage people, especially people from different cultures where the only thing they have in common is baseball . It's impossible to get the the results you want because there's so many things you have no control over. All it takes is for one guy to have a lousy day to screw up an otherwise great day or make you look like a fool.

Edited July 5, 2010 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. Inge is a pretty bad player that Leyland loves and plays all the time, similar to what Ozzie has done with certain guys. That's all I'm saying.

I'm just saying you play the hand your dealt . You'll never get dealt a winning hand every time so you play with what you got . But there will always be the jokers not in the deck saying you could've played that hand better.

[BigSqwert]

Guillen's teams seem to fade more often than not in the 2nd half.

[Texsox]

Look at guys who are fired a year or two after being named manager of the year. The modern manager has to blend to the players he has. What may work with one set of players is an epic failure with a different set. The days of a manager with a my way or the highway approach has been gone since Curt Flood.

[chw42]

Except Inge really does suck. Like, a lot.

 

The only thing he sucks at is hitting, and in his good years, he's not even that bad.

 

I haven't busted out the numbers on his fielding because I thought people knew Inge was actually a pretty good defender, but now I don't have much of a choice...

 

As a 3B, Brandon Inge has racked up a UZR of +34.7 at 3B, that's 5.9 runs saved per 150 games. Over the past 3 years, Inge is ranked 8th among all full-time 3B in UZR, only behind names like Longoria, Beltre, Zimmerman, Figgins, Rolen, and Feliz.

 

Over the past three years, Inge also ranks 6th among all 3B in Plus/Minus, only behind some of the names I listed above.

 

What's funny is that over the past three years, Inge is also the leader among all 3B in zone rating, which is the amount of balls the fielder can handle that are in his zone. So your Tigers fan friends aren't exactly right about him being terrible at routine plays.

 

 

[chw42]

See what you did there ? Why couldn't you say they all have strengths and weaknesses . Its quite possible that these guys have the players respect and can do a good job despite playing a hunch once in a while or going by the book and not having it work out the way you want it to turn out. They have 25 different people to manage with varying degrees of skill . There will always be situation where you have to use the ones at the end of the bench in a crucial situation. Every decision is not cut and dried. You can't use stats all the time to manage people, especially people from different cultures where the only thing they have in common is baseball . It's impossible to get the the results you want because there's so many things you have no control over. All it takes is for one guy to have a lousy day to screw up an otherwise great day or make you look like a fool.

 

The problem is that Ozzie plays hunches too much. His lineup making skills are bad, he doesn't have a good sense of what on base percentage means. Maybe it's because he never thought it was important as a player. He plays way too many matchups with his bullpen (Randy Williams is a great example). And he absolutely hates to play younger players (Viciedo, the whole thing with Beckham last year). It's not so much that I don't like Ozzie as an off the field manager, he's one of the better managers when it comes to that (and that has to do with the whole managing players part). It's because Ozzie is a terrible on the field manager and his perspective of what a good player is is very very outdated. His tactics are old and he makes this team play like it's in the NL. The problem is that we play in the AL and all the other teams are trying to maximize their run scoring while we're giving outs away.

[SoxFan1]

The only thing he sucks at is hitting, and in his good years, he's not even that bad.

 

I haven't busted out the numbers on his fielding because I thought people knew Inge was actually a pretty good defender, but now I don't have much of a choice...

 

As a 3B, Brandon Inge has racked up a UZR of +34.7 at 3B, that's 5.9 runs saved per 150 games. Over the past 3 years, Inge is ranked 8th among all full-time 3B in UZR, only behind names like Longoria, Beltre, Zimmerman, Figgins, Rolen, and Feliz.

 

Over the past three years, Inge also ranks 6th among all 3B in Plus/Minus, only behind some of the names I listed above.

 

What's funny is that over the past three years, Inge is also the leader among all 3B in zone rating, which is the amount of balls the fielder can handle that are in his zone. So your Tigers fan friends aren't exactly right about him being terrible at routine plays.

I don't tell them what to think. But I'll take the word of those who watch every game.

[caulfield12]

I wouldnt want Leyland.

 

I would be curious to see how both the Twins would respond to Guillen (and for how long) and how well the White Sox would respond to Gardenhire.

 

Personally, I think that we've overrated our own talent a bit sometimes and underrated the Twins...citing Gardy as the reason for their success. To many Twins' fans, it's STILL Tom Kelly's "system" and many in their fanbase are convinced Gardenhire isn't the man to lead them to playoff success. His historical lack of success is the thing that scares everyone up there, they're getting to be like Braves' fans, where they don't believe the team has what it takes to get out of the first round without Oswalt or Lee.

 

The two true pennant races, 2005 and 2008, the White Sox triumphed in the end....coin flip luck or Rick Hahn's son or whatever you want to call it.

 

2006, the White Sox pitching staff just faded and Jenks wasn't healthy, there's not much any manager could have done to hold off the Twins and Tigers.

 

Two times head-to-head, the Twins took out the Tigers, although DET obviously ended up in the World Series. So you can also say that you would rather have Guillen or Leyland in the playoffs than Gardenhire, hard not to argue that one.

 

When everyone (myself included) gave up on the White Sox in 2007 (coming into 08) and then again in 2010, Ozzie was able to steer the ship to calm waters....now you can say that the players did it on both occasions, but I feel there's a lot more to it than that.

 

2009, if you want to blame Ozzie, that team just never jelled or had any type of identity, and not having a healthy Peavy for most of the 2nd half...and I don't think any manager or hitting coach could have straightened out Rios last year or Beckham in 2010.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I don't tell them what to think. But I'll take the word of those who watch every game.

 

Brandon Inge is the Joe Crede of Detroit.

 

Neither were consistent All-Star players, but both were premium fielders with some pop...Crede has the "Mr. Clutch" moniker, Inge is one of the most versatile and athletic players in the league.

 

Inge isn't a BAD player by any stretch of the imagination, but he's far from consistent offensively and his salary is getting to be like Jenks', where he is no longer a clear bargain.

[Marty34]

Surprised by all the Gardenhire love seeing how he coughed up a lead big-time to Ozzie in '08.

[greg775]

Nobody said any of us could do a better job, that's you interpreting it that way. In your eyes, if Ozzie killed one of his players, it'd be okay because that player was obviously in the wrong and not performing.

 

Not really, but I really do think most every manager is disliked after every loss by his/her fanbase.

s***, if the Sox lose all a hater has to do is criticize that day's lineup and that hater is the winner of the argument.

How can you argue.

If the team wins, however, Oz rarely gets any credit.

A lot of people insist he gets little to no credit for 05.

The dumbest argument EVER is that he just rode the pitchers as they threw complete games.

Uh ... most managers wouldn't have even considered letting their pitchers go more than 7 or 8.

It's matchups time in the 8th inning in the World Series don't you know?

[Y2HH]

Of the three choices here, only one has won the world series from what I know, despite the other two having multiple playoff opportunities.

 

Therefore my decision is Ozzie.

[soxrwhite]

Overall I like both Gardenhire and Leyland. The question though was at "gut check" time who do you like best. I'll take the unortodox, frustrating Ozzie. His players seem to come through in a pinch.

[whitesoxfan101]

Gardenhire

 

Guillen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and then some....Leyland.

 

This post sums it up perfectly.