Putz for Closer

[witesoxfan]

Jenks has only pitched 33 innings before the 9th inning in his entire career. Either he would get pissed and pitch terribly from here on out, or he'd accept a demotion with grace and try to earn his 9th inning duties back. I don't think it would be a huge deal to atleast see what he can bring in earlier innings and in the meantime, allow Putz to close out games. As some have mentioned, the 7th and 8th innings are just as important and can be just as adrenaline filled as the 9th inning.

[Milkman delivers]

I don't think anyone here would call Jenks an elite closer. I think he is an adequate closer, and that's the only role he can play on this team.

 

I doubt Putz would perform at quite that insane of a clip in the 9th inning exclusively. Another point is that typically the 9th inning is set up to go through the heart of the order, whereas typically the 7th inning is going through the bottom of the order.

 

I can think of one.

[lostfan]

Please respond to Greg Hibbard's post indicating just how not-so-bad Bobby has been this season.

Why? You didn't respond to the splits I posted earlier which looked pretty terrible (except June which was beyond awesome, but the others may as well have been from Randy Williams). I am not saying Bobby sucks... I'm saying he has spent more time being bad than being good this season and this outing wasn't any kind of isolated occurrence. At all.

 

Oh, and if Bobby comes in and gives up runs but the offense bails him out, that doesn't mean Bobby (or any reliever) "didn't hurt the team." Potentially, he could have, it just means he got lucky.

Edited July 20, 2010 by lostfan

[jenksycat]

Why? You didn't respond to the splits I posted earlier which looked pretty terrible (except June which was beyond awesome, but the others may as well have been from Randy Williams). I am not saying Bobby sucks... I'm saying he has spent more time being bad than being good this season and this outing wasn't any kind of isolated occurrence. At all.

 

Oh, and if Bobby comes in and gives up runs but the offense bails him out, that doesn't mean Bobby (or any reliever) "didn't hurt the team." Potentially, he could have, it just means he got lucky.

 

So was more than half this team. Why wasn't there a mass calling for us to dump everyone?

[lostfan]

So was more than half this team. Why wasn't there a mass calling for us to dump everyone?

There pretty much was...?

 

What are you saying exactly? Are you trying to point out inconsistency in something I've said?

Edited July 21, 2010 by lostfan

[jenksycat]

There pretty much was...?

 

What are you saying exactly? Are you trying to point out inconsistency in something I've said?

 

No, just the inconsistency of the board. Jenks has been ragged on more than anyone who deserves to be on the team in the first place (not Kotsay, Williams, etc) yet in pure closer numbers hasn't been nearly that bad. Yeah he's making to much money and he's not the same as he once was, but the ridiculous amount of hate he has gotten is pretty f***ing pathetic.

[Milkman delivers]

No, just the inconsistency of the board. Jenks has been ragged on more than anyone who deserves to be on the team in the first place (not Kotsay, Williams, etc) yet in pure closer numbers hasn't been nearly that bad. Yeah he's making to much money and he's not the same as he once was, but the ridiculous amount of hate he has gotten is pretty f***ing pathetic.

 

What's pathetic is his ERA...and WHIP.

[Quin]

No, just the inconsistency of the board. Jenks has been ragged on more than anyone who deserves to be on the team in the first place (not Kotsay, Williams, etc) yet in pure closer numbers hasn't been nearly that bad. Yeah he's making to much money and he's not the same as he once was, but the ridiculous amount of hate he has gotten is pretty f***ing pathetic.

 

No, those guys were/are both hated far more.

 

The difference is, Bobby sometimes forgets what pitcher he used to be and doesn't throw the curve or 4-seam.

[jenksycat]

No, those guys were/are both hated far more.

 

That would be why I excluded them...

[jenksycat]

What's pathetic is his ERA...and WHIP.

 

Good thing those don't matter for a closer. He pitches so few innings that one bad outing inflates all those stats. All I care about is 20/22

[greg775]

e's not the same as he once was, but the ridiculous amount of hate he has gotten is pretty f***ing pathetic.

 

I hate it as well. It's the nature of being a closer and being chubby/fat.

People don't like Bobby. I do.

I think he's been excellent and was glad to see him do well tonight. He threw strikes for the most part and our third baseman and shortstop were great behind him.

[Milkman delivers]

Good thing those don't matter for a closer. He pitches so few innings that one bad outing inflates all those stats. All I care about is 20/22

 

[Real]

Congrats to Putz for setting the all-time consecutive scoreless innings streak in Sox History

[Greg Hibbard]

Good thing those don't matter for a closer. He pitches so few innings that one bad outing inflates all those stats. All I care about is 20/22

 

This is an oversimplification, but I agree with the sentiment.

 

The last thing I would look at for a closer is ERA. It's such a misleading statistic for a reliever on so many levels, and its dysfunctional nature when applied to those situations is exacerbated when looking at closers.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how giving up a certain number of walks/hits in an appearance should categorically be applied identically in every situation a closer is placed in. When someone can do that, I'll accept WHIP as a reasonable statistic for closers.

 

I'd like for someone to invent a statistic called "quality appearance":

 

1) with a 1 run lead, 0 walks, hits and runs.

2) with a 2 run lead, not more than 1 walk/hit

3) with a 3 run lead, not more than 2 walks/hits and/or not more than 1 run

 

can we all at least agree that closing is extremely situational?

Edited July 21, 2010 by Greg Hibbard

[whitesoxfan101]

Good thing those don't matter for a closer. He pitches so few innings that one bad outing inflates all those stats. All I care about is 20/22

 

Ummm excuse me? The fact that Jenks has such a poor ERA and WHIP yet has been so succesful in save percentage just shows there is a cause for alarm since really, he's long overdue to blow a few games in a short period of time. You can't just choose when to give up runs and baserunners.

[fathom]

I'll be honest, I still didn't like what I saw from Jenks yesterday. Had plenty of chances to throw his curve, and didn't. He threw one awful slider, and the rest were fastballs. His one true plus pitch is his curve, and hopefully he rediscovers it soon.

Edited July 21, 2010 by fathom

[witesoxfan]

Good thing those don't matter for a closer. He pitches so few innings that one bad outing inflates all those stats. All I care about is 20/22

 

WHIP is actually a pretty good indicator of future success, and it's been a lot of his appearances that have inflated his WHIP (and ERA for that matter). 1.51 is not good. To suggest that they don't matter is a bit short-sighted and ignorant. Sure, all that matters is if he gets the save, but those with a bit of foresight who could look at his peripherals rather than just the raw numbers all saw a game like the final game of that Minnesota series coming from miles away.

 

EDIT: and Jenks is still technically 20 of 21 in save chances. Because he didn't give up the lead in the Minnesota game, he wasn't charged with a blown save. Santos was. BS's are a BS statistic.

Edited July 21, 2010 by witesoxfan

[jenksycat]

Ummm excuse me? The fact that Jenks has such a poor ERA and WHIP yet has been so succesful in save percentage just shows there is a cause for alarm since really, he's long overdue to blow a few games in a short period of time. You can't just choose when to give up runs and baserunners.

 

Hibbard explains my thoughts exactly. Why does what he did in a few bad games in April/May predict "he's overdue for a bunch of blown games" in July/August? That makes absolutely no sense. Did those stats also predict he would be one of the best in June/July, or does it only apply if its negative?

 

 

[Greg Hibbard]

WHIP is actually a pretty good indicator of future success, and it's been a lot of his appearances that have inflated his WHIP (and ERA for that matter). 1.51 is not good. To suggest that they don't matter is a bit short-sighted and ignorant. Sure, all that matters is if he gets the save, but those with a bit of foresight who could look at his peripherals rather than just the raw numbers all saw a game like the final game of that Minnesota series coming from miles away.

 

EDIT: and Jenks is still technically 20 of 21 in save chances. Because he didn't give up the lead in the Minnesota game, he wasn't charged with a blown save. Santos was. BS's are a BS statistic.

 

Wite, the problem with WHIP (and ERA) is that a closer can have one outing where he pitches 0.0, gives up 6 ER with 6 walks/hits, and then be totally effective for his next 13 outings, and still have a s***ty WHIP and a s***ty ERA. He has done his job 13/14 times, but his line looks totally s***ty.

 

Edited July 21, 2010 by Greg Hibbard

[iamshack]

Wite, the problem with WHIP (and ERA) is that a closer can have one outing where he pitches 0.0, gives up 6 ER with 6 walks/hits, and then be totally effective for his next 13 outings, and still have a s***ty WHIP and a s***ty ERA. He has done his job 13/14 times, but his line looks totally s***ty.

You're going to skew the crap out of every stat if you have incredibly bad performances once in a while. Are you arguing that blown saves is still a good statistic?

[Balta1701]

Wite, the problem with WHIP (and ERA) is that a closer can have one outing where he pitches 0.0, gives up 6 ER with 6 walks/hits, and then be totally effective for his next 13 outings, and still have a s***ty WHIP and a s***ty ERA. He has done his job 13/14 times, but his line looks totally s***ty.

Ok, fine, I'll bite...if Mariano had an outing like that and it was swamping his numbers the WHIP wouldn't tell us much.

 

Simple reply. Would you describe Bobby Jenks's WHIP and ERA numbers as inflated by "1 bad outing", "2 bad outings", or by "Consistently mediocre at best in April and May along with a terrible outing in July".

[jenksycat]

Ok, fine, I'll bite...if Mariano had an outing like that and it was swamping his numbers the WHIP wouldn't tell us much.

 

Simple reply. Would you describe Bobby Jenks's WHIP and ERA numbers as inflated by "1 bad outing", "2 bad outings", or by "Consistently mediocre at best in April and May along with a terrible outing in July".

 

Take out his 3 worst outings and his ERA drops by over 2

[witesoxfan]

Take out his 3 worst outings and his ERA drops by over 2

 

And if you take out Floyd's 3 worst appearances, I'm sure his ERA drops by 1 (or more). The fact of the matter is, you can't just *remove* those from his current totals.

[chw42]

Javier Vazquez could take one bad inning out of all of his starts and he'd be a Cy Young contender almost every year. The fact that people would bring up Jenks' bad outings just says that Jenks is wildly inconsistent and can't be relied on at all times.

Edited July 21, 2010 by chw42

[Greg Hibbard]

Ok, fine, I'll bite...if Mariano had an outing like that and it was swamping his numbers the WHIP wouldn't tell us much.

 

Simple reply. Would you describe Bobby Jenks's WHIP and ERA numbers as inflated by "1 bad outing", "2 bad outings", or by "Consistently mediocre at best in April and May along with a terrible outing in July".

 

I describe it as a guy who was pretty bad through May 11th and pretty good since.

 

I think Jenks is a passable closer.

 

I think it's worth pointing out that even using wite's stringent rubric (which basically puts an 8 run lead against the Angels where Bobby gives up a run in the "bad outing" category), Jenks has had 16/20 great appearances (1 hit/walk or nothing) since June 1. Of the four "bad" appearances, 1 was with an 8 run lead, and one was the 1.1 IP with 2 hits and a run against minny.