Putz for Closer

[T R U]

yawn.. who didn't see this thread coming?

[Quin]

yawn.. who didn't see this thread coming?

 

I didn't.

 

I expected "Thornton for Closer"

[greg775]

Look, after he has dominated for the past month, I think it is pretty ignorant for us all to b**** and moan at one bad outing over a pretty good sample size.

 

He did struggle in April, May, but the guy more often than not has been a pretty reliable closer. Overpaid, certainly, gone at the end of the year, probably.

 

Now that's a good thread post. I can't argue with that reasonable post.

 

Do you honestly expect our closer, whomever it may be, to save every game? I'm at the point I hope they replace Fat Bobby just so you all will be happy. But I'll never bury him. He's done a good job in helping us get back in the race.

Today was really unfortunate. He also was lights out before having to take time off for the family emergency.

I'd think after today it'll be closer by committee for a while again.

 

[Quin]

Now that's a good thread post. I can't argue with that reasonable post.

 

Do you honestly expect our closer, whomever it may be, to save every game? I'm at the point I hope they replace Fat Bobby just so you all will be happy. But I'll never bury him. He's done a good job in helping us get back in the race.

Today was really unfortunate. He also was lights out before having to take time off for the family emergency.

I'd think after today it'll be closer by committee for a while again.

 

Ok, I'll admit this thread was a knee-jerk reaction.

 

Bobby was very dominate for a while, but he's also had long stretches of horrible.

 

Maybe I should have titled this "Putz for Closer if we have a 2 or 3 run lead"

[greg775]

I kind of like closer by committee which requires a feel from the manager on who it should be that day.

I thought Oz had the feel today when he let Freddy pitch the sixth despite giving up double digit hits through five.

Thank god I had a commitment and could only watch the first seven innings. The ninth had to be sick.

It amazes me how this division has been the same story every year. The Twins won't ever go away and just have a s*** season.

Edited July 19, 2010 by greg775

[Quin]

I kind of like closer by committee which requires a feel from the manager on who it should be that day.

I thought Oz had the feel today when he let Freddy pitch the sixth despite giving up double digit hits through five.

Thank god I had a commitment and could only watch the first seven innings. The ninth had to be sick.

It amazes me how this division has been the same story every year. The Twins won't ever go away and just have a s*** season.

 

We agree on this.

[jenksycat]

Ok, I'll admit this thread was a knee-jerk reaction.

 

Bobby was very dominate for a while, but he's also had long stretches of horrible.

 

Maybe I should have titled this "Putz for Closer if we have a 2 or 3 run lead"

 

His stretch of horrible was shorter than the rest of the team. This place needs to calm the f*** down sometimes, he's not going to save every chance. He's not going to throw perfect innings 100% of the time, and neither is Putz, Thornton, Sergio, or Raaaaaaandy. Our bullpen has worked thus far and Bobby has been pretty damn solid for over a month up until now.

 

The twins won 1 game of this series and were given 2 more. Considering the run we had, its a much better feeling to make some stupid plays than getting blown out for 3 games.

[BearSox]

I'll admit, I've never been a huge fan of Bobby, but his post game comments were ridiculous today and just because of them, he should take a role as middle reliever for a while.

 

"I didn't have it," closer Bobby Jenks said after failing to retire any of the four batters he faced and ending a streak of 15 save conversions. "My cutter was coming back. My sinker wasn't sinking. The slider was big. I just didn't have my stuff."

 

So f***ing what Bobby? Not every pitcher is gonna have his good stuff everyday. This is just a p**** ass excuse by you and everyone knows that. You f***ing stunk today. And just because your stuff was flat doesn't mean you have to walk the first two batters. If you throw strikes, you will always have a shot.

 

There's just no need for players making lame ass, p**** excuses like this. Bobby, take a seat for a while.

[SoxAce]

I will still never understand why Bobby (and the sox brass) felt he needed to be a "true pitcher." He is a closer. This dude has like 6 god damn pitches in his arsenal, that most of the time, aren't needed. Most closers in the game have 2, maybe 3 solid/good/great pitches to get guys out with. (unless your name is Mariano, but he is a freak) He would have been perfectly fine (probably one of the best in the game) if he was still throwing 98+ with that 12 to 6 curve. And if he really wanted to add a third pitch, a change-up would be been more than good enough. You don't need a cutter, slider, sinker, etc.. in your arsenal as a closer. Mariano Rivera throws 1 pitch 9.5 out of 10 times and gets hitters out even when they know it's comming. Billy Wagner had a 99+ mph fastball he threw 8 out of 10 times and a slider. Trevor Hoffman, in his prime, had a 96+ mph fastball and one of the best change-ups this game has ever seen, and when he got old, he had a 85-87 mph fastball and one of the best change-ups this game has ever seen.

[jenksycat]

I'll admit, I've never been a huge fan of Bobby, but his post game comments were ridiculous today and just because of them, he should take a role as middle reliever for a while.

 

"I didn't have it," closer Bobby Jenks said after failing to retire any of the four batters he faced and ending a streak of 15 save conversions. "My cutter was coming back. My sinker wasn't sinking. The slider was big. I just didn't have my stuff."

 

So f***ing what Bobby? Not every pitcher is gonna have his good stuff everyday. This is just a p**** ass excuse by you and everyone knows that. You f***ing stunk today. And just because your stuff was flat doesn't mean you have to walk the first two batters. If you throw strikes, you will always have a shot.

 

There's just no need for players making lame ass, p**** excuses like this. Bobby, take a seat for a while.

 

hahahah, that is possibly the lamest "rant" I've ever heard about any player on this site.

 

Every pitcher in the history of the game uses that after a bad outing. All of them. Every single one. You know why? Cause its the f***ing truth. He just pitched about 5 weeks with 1 ER and a handful of hits. He's not Randy f***ing Williams.

 

And you've "never been a huge fan of bobby"? I'm sorry, but that makes you a piss poor fan.

[Quin]

I will still never understand why Bobby (and the sox brass) felt he needed to be a "true pitcher." He is a closer. This dude has like 6 god damn pitches in his arsenal, that most of the time, aren't needed. Most closers in the game have 2, maybe 3 solid/good/great pitches to get guys out with. (unless your name is Mariano, but he is a freak) He would have been perfectly fine (probably one of the best in the game) if he was still throwing 98+ with that 12 to 6 curve. And if he really wanted to add a third pitch, a change-up would be been more than good enough. You don't need a cutter, slider, sinker, etc.. in your arsenal as a closer. Mariano Rivera throws 1 pitch 9.5 out of 10 times and gets hitters out even when they know it's comming. Billy Wagner had a 99+ mph fastball he threw 8 out of 10 times and a slider. Trevor Hoffman, in his prime, had a 96+ mph fastball and one of the best change-ups this game has ever seen, and when he got old, he had a 85-87 mph fastball and one of the best change-ups this game has ever seen.

 

Ace (sorry, habit) has been the most reasonable poster post-loss, and everything he wrote here is truth.

 

[greg775]

"I didn't have it," closer Bobby Jenks said after failing to retire any of the four batters he faced and ending a streak of 15 save conversions. "My cutter was coming back. My sinker wasn't sinking. The slider was big. I just didn't have my stuff."

 

BearSox, have you lost your mind? This is cliche stuff like out of that baseball movie. He gave DULL COMMENTS. What's he supposed to say. "I apologize to all of Chicago. Forgive me fans. I blew it and I cost us the game!"

 

Take a valium. My god. Your reaction was insanity.

 

Man I'm thankful I'm incapable of hating Bobby. If he loses his job eventually, fine. People need to get a grip (they won't though so I can continue laughing at your guys' rants when we lose).

Edited July 19, 2010 by greg775

[BearSox]

hahahah, that is possibly the lamest "rant" I've ever heard about any player on this site.

 

Every pitcher in the history of the game uses that after a bad outing. All of them. Every single one. You know why? Cause its the f***ing truth. He just pitched about 5 weeks with 1 ER and a handful of hits. He's not Randy f***ing Williams.

And you've "never been a huge fan of bobby"? I'm sorry, but that makes you a piss poor fan.

No, some players will actually admit when they f*** up and not make excuses. And not having your good stuff is no excuse for walking the first two batters you faced. There ain't no need for BS. Either say "I f***ed up tonight and I'm going to go back to work and do everything I can to get better." Don't give some bulls*** excuse that any non-idiot baseball fan can see through.

 

And because I've never sucked Bobby dick like half this board, I'm a piss poor fan? Screw you, I live and die with this team. I'm sorry if I actually realized that Jenks has been a liability and should have been traded a couple years ago when he still had value. You don't give pitchers with sporadic stuff and huge injury risks the type of money Jenks is making. It's dumb.

 

By your logic, because I think Andruw Jones is a bum and has no business being on the team, I'm not a true fan. Well, you basically said Randy Williams sucks, your not a true fan!

[Balta1701]

I will still never understand why Bobby (and the sox brass) felt he needed to be a "true pitcher." He is a closer. This dude has like 6 god damn pitches in his arsenal, that most of the time, aren't needed. Most closers in the game have 2, maybe 3 solid/good/great pitches to get guys out with. (unless your name is Mariano, but he is a freak) He would have been perfectly fine (probably one of the best in the game) if he was still throwing 98+ with that 12 to 6 curve. And if he really wanted to add a third pitch, a change-up would be been more than good enough. You don't need a cutter, slider, sinker, etc.. in your arsenal as a closer. Mariano Rivera throws 1 pitch 9.5 out of 10 times and gets hitters out even when they know it's comming. Billy Wagner had a 99+ mph fastball he threw 8 out of 10 times and a slider. Trevor Hoffman, in his prime, had a 96+ mph fastball and one of the best change-ups this game has ever seen, and when he got old, he had a 85-87 mph fastball and one of the best change-ups this game has ever seen.

I think there are 2 main reasons. First of all, I don't think his arm could take throwing 100 and the big curve ball. I think he probably had no choice but to back off, especially given his lack of interest in keeping in shape in the offseason. Most of us I'm sure can remember how at the start of 2006/2007 everyone was concerned about whether his velocity would come back when he'd start the season throwing as hard as he did yesterday (93ish). Remember, this is a guy who already has a screw in his elbow holding it together.

 

Second, I think that he never would have had the kind of control that Billy Wagner puts out there, especially as he kept being out of shape. If you walk the first 2 guys you face, it doesn't matter if you're throwing 99.

[Milkman delivers]

His stretch of horrible was shorter than the rest of the team. This place needs to calm the f*** down sometimes, he's not going to save every chance. He's not going to throw perfect innings 100% of the time, and neither is Putz, Thornton, Sergio, or Raaaaaaandy. Our bullpen has worked thus far and Bobby has been pretty damn solid for over a month up until now.

 

The twins won 1 game of this series and were given 2 more. Considering the run we had, its a much better feeling to make some stupid plays than getting blown out for 3 games.

 

Obviously, as his ERA is almost 5 and his WHIP is terrible.

[southsider2k5]

I'll admit, I've never been a huge fan of Bobby, but his post game comments were ridiculous today and just because of them, he should take a role as middle reliever for a while.

 

"I didn't have it," closer Bobby Jenks said after failing to retire any of the four batters he faced and ending a streak of 15 save conversions. "My cutter was coming back. My sinker wasn't sinking. The slider was big. I just didn't have my stuff."

 

So f***ing what Bobby? Not every pitcher is gonna have his good stuff everyday. This is just a p**** ass excuse by you and everyone knows that. You f***ing stunk today. And just because your stuff was flat doesn't mean you have to walk the first two batters. If you throw strikes, you will always have a shot.

 

There's just no need for players making lame ass, p**** excuses like this. Bobby, take a seat for a while.

 

 

hahahah, that is possibly the lamest "rant" I've ever heard about any player on this site.

 

Every pitcher in the history of the game uses that after a bad outing. All of them. Every single one. You know why? Cause its the f***ing truth. He just pitched about 5 weeks with 1 ER and a handful of hits. He's not Randy f***ing Williams.

 

And you've "never been a huge fan of bobby"? I'm sorry, but that makes you a piss poor fan.

 

I agree with the first half of the reply. It was a bad outing, he admitted, told us exactly why, and you still went off of the deep end. The ironic part is the lofty standards you expect from a post game interview at the guys locker who blew the game, and yet you show no common decency in your reply.

 

[Greg Hibbard]

If we define things this way:

 

1) Great game (A) - no walks, hits or runs

2) Good game (B) - 1-2 walks/hits, no runs.

3) Mediocre game ( C) - not more than 3 walks/hits, not more than 1 run, no BS/loss.

4) Bad game (D) - 3-4 walks/hits and 1-2 runs, or 3 walks/hits + 1 run + BS/loss.

5) Horrible game (F) - 3-4 or more walks/hits, more than 2 runs, or 2 runs with a BS/loss.

 

Bobby has had:

 

A - 11 outings, 7 saves

B - 15 outings, 11 saves

C - 4 outings, 2 saves (no losses, no blown saves)

D - 3 outings, 1 win (no losses, no blown saves)

F - 3 outings, 2 losses, 1 blown save (one of the appearances the white sox won anyway)

 

so he has had 6 bad outings this year in 37 appearances.

 

Those six bad outings:

 

1) April 24th vs Sea - the team wins anyway, 5-4, Jenks gets the Win. Doesn't hurt us.

2) April 29th @ Tex - the team wins anyway, 7-5. Doesn't hurt us.

3) May 7th vs Tor - the team was losing already when he entered the game. Doesn't hurt us.

4) May 9th vs Tor - Bobby blows the game. Hurts us.

5) May 26th @ Cle - the team wins 5-4. Doesn't hurt us.

6) July 18th @ Min - Bobby blows the game. Hurts us.

 

In other words, Bobby Jenks has lost us two games in 37 appearances...31 he has made with the lead.

 

The team is 21-1 since May 11th when he enters the game with the lead.

 

Seems pretty good to me.

 

Including the four "mediocre" appearances:

 

1) Apr 7 vs Cle - entered the game losing.

2) Jun 12 vs Cubs - gave up 1 run, made it closer, got the save anyway.

3) Jul 5 vs LAA - entered the game winning 9-1, gave up one run.

4) Jul 18 @ Min - gave up 1 in that 8-7 win, got the save anyway.

 

I'd call the non-save 2 of those non-factors. The Minny and Cubs games were made sweatacular, but that's what closers do - they still ultimately save the games, and those were rival situations.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Greg Hibbard

[elrockinMT]

Bobby Jenks had a bad game. It happens. I am not sure at this point in time you would make a switch and have Putz close or not, but he sure can do that for certain. I would stick with Jenks, but I don't see the Sox paying the money some writers claim he can expect to sign for 2011. If he doesn't stay then the Sox shoud be looking at Putz as closer for next year and make a move to sign him to an extension.

[Chisoxfn]

I'll admit, I've never been a huge fan of Bobby, but his post game comments were ridiculous today and just because of them, he should take a role as middle reliever for a while.

 

"I didn't have it," closer Bobby Jenks said after failing to retire any of the four batters he faced and ending a streak of 15 save conversions. "My cutter was coming back. My sinker wasn't sinking. The slider was big. I just didn't have my stuff."

 

So f***ing what Bobby? Not every pitcher is gonna have his good stuff everyday. This is just a p**** ass excuse by you and everyone knows that. You f***ing stunk today. And just because your stuff was flat doesn't mean you have to walk the first two batters. If you throw strikes, you will always have a shot.

 

There's just no need for players making lame ass, p**** excuses like this. Bobby, take a seat for a while.

Seriously, coming clearly from someone who has never pitched. The guy was honest and you are berating him for it.

 

Take a back sit. Your comments are becoming more and more idiotic by the day.

[Balta1701]

Bobby Jenks had a bad game. It happens. I am not sure at this point in time you would make a switch and have Putz close or not, but he sure can do that for certain. I would stick with Jenks, but I don't see the Sox paying the money some writers claim he can expect to sign for 2011. If he doesn't stay then the Sox shoud be looking at Putz as closer for next year and make a move to sign him to an extension.

Frankly, I don't see anyone giving Bobby good money next season. He might well make less than we're paying Putz right now, based on his performance this year. Relievers with WHIP over 1.5 who can't pitch outside the closer's role aren't exactly going to be in huge demand.

 

I don't think Putz would have any interest in signing an extension right now, and I can't imagine the Sox would be able to do so. If he keeps up this performance the whole season, I could easily see someone going out and signing him for 3/$30 to be their closer.

[chw42]

Bobby didn't even get a blown save for yesterday. You have to actually be in the game when you give up the lead to get a blown save. So in reality, Santos got the blown save yesterday while Jenks got the loss. What a crappy stat the save is.

[chw42]

And you'd be f***ing with Jenks' mind if you took him out of the closer's role. He'd be like dead weight on this team if you start pitching him as a middle reliever or a setup man.

[qwerty]

I'll admit, I've never been a huge fan of Bobby, but his post game comments were ridiculous today and just because of them, he should take a role as middle reliever for a while.

 

"I didn't have it," closer Bobby Jenks said after failing to retire any of the four batters he faced and ending a streak of 15 save conversions. "My cutter was coming back. My sinker wasn't sinking. The slider was big. I just didn't have my stuff."

 

So f***ing what Bobby? Not every pitcher is gonna have his good stuff everyday. This is just a p**** ass excuse by you and everyone knows that. You f***ing stunk today. And just because your stuff was flat doesn't mean you have to walk the first two batters. If you throw strikes, you will always have a shot.

 

There's just no need for players making lame ass, p**** excuses like this. Bobby, take a seat for a while.

 

Believe it or not, there is such a thing as bad pitches in the strike zone. Strikes as you call them. They are thrown all day, every day, by the best of them. When a ball is hit out of the park... where is it generally thrown? In the strike zone. Gapper? Strike zone. Line shot sin... well you get the point (should). Yes, the walks sucked, first and foremost they were the reason they lost. But how about when he threw a pitch for strikes after those two batters? He got hit. He had ''none stuff'' as they say. He was equivalent to batting practice.

 

I will still never understand why Bobby (and the sox brass) felt he needed to be a "true pitcher." He is a closer. This dude has like 6 god damn pitches in his arsenal, that most of the time, aren't needed. Most closers in the game have 2, maybe 3 solid/good/great pitches to get guys out with. (unless your name is Mariano, but he is a freak) He would have been perfectly fine (probably one of the best in the game) if he was still throwing 98+ with that 12 to 6 curve. And if he really wanted to add a third pitch, a change-up would be been more than good enough. You don't need a cutter, slider, sinker, etc.. in your arsenal as a closer. Mariano Rivera throws 1 pitch 9.5 out of 10 times and gets hitters out even when they know it's comming. Billy Wagner had a 99+ mph fastball he threw 8 out of 10 times and a slider. Trevor Hoffman, in his prime, had a 96+ mph fastball and one of the best change-ups this game has ever seen, and when he got old, he had a 85-87 mph fastball and one of the best change-ups this game has ever seen.

 

On average it's been proven the more pitches thrown in an arsenal the less successful a pitcher will be... and it's more prevalent in relievers. Anymore than four pitches in an arsenal is generally considered overkill. It's just not a necessity to throw a 5-6 different types of pitches when several of them are below average. No one is getting fooled by pitches with limited movement and bad placement. Instead of having 2 plus pitches with 3-4 bad ones mixed it.... the better route to go is limit the variation of pitches you throw, and work on making your plus pitches, plus, plus. Once, (if) that ability is obtained, a pitchers show me pitches (whatever they may be) look all that more impressive when used properly.

 

Honestly though i cannot find the studies in my favorites which break down the very subject. If i come across them, which i am not gonna purposely look for them, i will post them. It does not appear to be a coincidence to me that this is jenks worst year, far and away, to date. The amount of changeups he has thrown thrown is higher (2.3 times extended) to go along with a 4.7% unknown percentage. The reason i do not feel his struggles are a coincidence... is because when a pitcher does not have a good feel for a certain pitch... it tends to carry over elsewhere, hence how erratic he has been the entire season. Anyone with the ability to see should be able to tell this has been the case with jenks this year. The change has hindered him mightily in my opinion.

 

 

 

No, some players will actually admit when they f*** up and not make excuses. And not having your good stuff is no excuse for walking the first two batters you faced. There ain't no need for BS. Either say "I f***ed up tonight and I'm going to go back to work and do everything I can to get better." Don't give some bulls*** excuse that any non-idiot baseball fan can see through.

 

Not having your good stuff is not an excuse for walking people? That seems like the only logical answer for walking people (unless you straight up got squeezed batter after batter... which was not the case). You don't walk two batters without recording an out if you have your stuff working for you. Jenks said what the whole world saw. He told it how it is. He hid no place. Jenks should not have to state something that should already be a given for every player... of course he wants to improve on his season and yesterdays game. It's a shame because it's doubtful you will even understand how far out the things you said are.

 

==============================================================================

 

 

Jenks has not killed us yet, yet that is. We are fortunate for that being the case thus far. With the way jenks has pitched this season, he very well may hit a patch in which he blows 3 of 4, or 4 of 6. He really has gotten that damn lucky. With this being said, if jenks loses that change almost entirely, i think he has the ability to still be a very important piece in the pen. If the sox are going to make the playoffs... and excel in them... we need him as vitally as anyone.

Edited July 19, 2010 by qwerty

[Balta1701]

And you'd be f***ing with Jenks' mind if you took him out of the closer's role. He'd be like dead weight on this team if you start pitching him as a middle reliever or a setup man.

It might well be that we need to F*** with his mind a little bit. Every time he gets comfortable in his role, we get a game like yesterday. When he was on the verge of having his job taken away from him in late May/early June, he genuinely stepped up.

[chw42]

It might well be that we need to F*** with his mind a little bit. Every time he gets comfortable in his role, we get a game like yesterday. When he was on the verge of having his job taken away from him in late May/early June, he genuinely stepped up.

 

I was more or less talking about what would happen if you took him out of the closer's role. Not if he was still in it. I have a feeling Bobby wouldn't be very good as a middle reliever or a setup man given his history in the 8th inning.