I want Ozzie and KW gone.

[bigruss]

Winning division titles mean absolutely nothing.

The goal is to get to the Series.

You have to win a division title or wildcard to make the Series, and 3 teams will be disappointed in each league playoffs eery year. Yes, the goal is to get to the Series, but the first goal is to get to the playoffs.

[bigruss]

Not getting Haren should not turn into a thread about blasting Ozzie and Kenny. Would it be nice to have Haren? Hell ya it would be great. Let me guess blast Kenny and Ozzie for a team going from 9 1/2 out to 1 game up in the divsion.

Did you read his post? It's not just about not getting Haren. It's about improving the franchise and team in general, and that maybe KW and Ozzie aren't the best people in charge to do that.

[DukeNukeEm]

This has been the most successful 5 years in franchise history. Really step back and think about that.

 

Not to mention its pretty silly to get on Kenny Williams for not making moves, the guy pulls the trigger more than any other GM in the game.

[chisox2334]

so kenny willams hasn't tried to improve this club?

[bobryansson]

Actually, I heard Rafael Rodriguez is hung like a horse.

The hilarity of this was overlooked in the angst.

[T R U]

so kenny willams hasn't tried to improve this club?

 

He has, but then he makes mistakes like the rotating DH thing because that's what Ozzie wants when I don't think there is any way that Kenny was 100% on board with that strategy.. he needs to make his own moves that he thinks will help the club the most, that's the main complaint I have about the OZ/KW regime..

[bigruss]

This has been the most successful 5 years in franchise history. Really step back and think about that.

 

Not to mention its pretty silly to get on Kenny Williams for not making moves, the guy pulls the trigger more than any other GM in the game.

I dont think its wrong at all to demand more. The Sox have a fantastic payroll to work with, and really should be in a better position every year. They HAVE to draft better, develop better, advance scout better, have more presence in Latin America.

 

KW and Ozzie do alot of things well, but they have alot of improvement to go still. I dont expect them to make the right move 100% of the time, but they can make major changes to help correct the mistakes they do make. This includes putting the team in the best position possible every series by knowing the other team inside and out, by having prospects waiting in the wings in case of injury or moves at the MLB level. They have the resources to do this, so why aren't they? These issues stem from KW and Ozzie, that is why they are being questioned by many fans, not just J4L.

Edited July 26, 2010 by bigruss22

[chw42]

Other than the horrible farm system and the whole let's listen to my stupid manager thing, I've liked the job that KW has done.

 

Ozzie is a great off the field manager, he treats his players right and the clubhouse is pretty loose. On the other hand, he just puts his players in a position to fail.

 

Examples: Mark Kotsay's got a career .750 OPS, okay, let's DH him and bat him 5th! Hey Dewayne Wise, how high is your OBP? .300? Okay, lead off for me. Hey A.J. what are you hitting? .235? Alright, bat right next to Kotsay so the other team can bring in a lefty in the 7th and get both of you out easily. Hey Randy Williams, I know you suck against both righties and lefties, but I gotta bring you in here because it's what the book and my gut says!

 

He makes weird lineup choices, he had Randy Williams in this bullpen because he felt the need for a second left hander no matter what. I'm still puzzled over why he put Rob Mackowiak in center when we had 4 guys who hit 30+ home runs in 2006 and a declining pitching staff in the second half.

 

With Ozzie, you like him for what he does off the field, but that might not even be half the battle as a manager. You still have to do know what you're doing on the field.

Edited July 26, 2010 by chw42

[bigruss]

Other than the horrible farm system and the whole let's listen to my stupid manager thing, I've liked the job that KW has done.

Those are potentially disasterous mistakes though. Not having a farm system to upgrade your team with, whether its through a trade or promotion, or not being able to replenish your team after making a trade, can keep a team stagnant and potentially losing ground or a division lead.

[chw42]

Those are potentially disasterous mistakes though. Not having a farm system to upgrade your team with, whether its through a trade or promotion, or not being able to replenish your team after making a trade, can keep a team stagnant and potentially losing ground or a division lead.

 

They are. And the decision of not bringing Thome back might deplete our farm system even more.

[greg775]

He's not saying anything that any Sox fan hasn't felt from time to time.

We want the Sox to be an elite team.

But you have to have committed ownership to make that happen.

The first thing they can do is become major players in the free agent market and stop with this nonsense of not signing players because of their representation.

The next thing they do is commit to a substantial financial outlay to improve their farm system. This means hiring the top evaluators in the business and commission them to search the planet for talent. You stockpile your farm system with talent not only for your needs but to make trades that don't impact your 25 man roster time and time again.

 

I like the way mcgrad types in choppy haiku format like I do. Could mcgrad be me with a second login?

 

I don't think either should be canned. We're actually still in the hunt this season and if Jake hadn't gotten unhealthy, we still might be rolling along.

 

Ultimately I feel fathom is right, though. Our performance against Central Division teams is alarmingly bad to mediocre as it has been for a good stretch, now.

[CWSOX45]

I don't post often, but when after reading this thread I thought I'd say a few things:

 

1. This team is in first place, the goal each and every year is to put ourselves in position to win in October, at this point you can't say that we are not in that position. There is still a week left until the trade deadline. Kenny Williams will do everything in his power to plug the holes for the stretch run.

 

2. If you want Ozzie and Kenny fired, who would you bring in, and why? If you're calling for their heads I'd like to hear who you think could do a better job with the same amount of resources.

 

People don't realize how difficult it is to scout and find talent. The talent pool is so limited every year, and sometimes it only comes down to who can get to the talent first.

 

International Scouting is completely different, there is literally no regulations in the Dominican, and the level of corruption is beyond description. (Which is why Sandy Alderson with MLB is working so hard to bring change to the region.)

 

By no means am I attacking the original poster, just attacking what he is proposing. If you want to go around calling for people's heads, you better have an idea of who you want to replace them and a reason why they'd be an improvement over what we have now.

[fathom]

It's not hard at all to scout/find talent. You just have to be willing to pay for it. It's no surprise that the Angels were easily able to pull off a deal like this, as they always spend in the draft/international market.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I don't post often, but when after reading this thread I thought I'd say a few things:

 

1. This team is in first place, the goal each and every year is to put ourselves in position to win in October, at this point you can't say that we are not in that position. There is still a week left until the trade deadline. Kenny Williams will do everything in his power to plug the holes for the stretch run.

 

Yes, we are in that position. Thanks to a ridiculous 31-game stretch. Whatever KW does, will be lacking in either the pitching or hitting department. My beef is why wait until the deadline to upgrade the offense when it was crystal clear it needed upgrading in March and there were legitimate, realistic options out there? Now you can't foresee injuries. And like I said, I don't blame KW or Ozzie at all for what happened with Peavy. But look at our dilemma now.

 

2. If you want Ozzie and Kenny fired, who would you bring in, and why? If you're calling for their heads I'd like to hear who you think could do a better job with the same amount of resources.

 

Just like I have no say so in whether Ozzie or KW get canned, I have no say so in who their replacements would be. Honestly? I have no idea off the top of my head. I know I'd like a manager that realized it's 2010 and managed like it. I'd like a GM that realizes unless you're the Yankees, the farm does matter. Specific names? Not my job.

 

People don't realize how difficult it is to scout and find talent. The talent pool is so limited every year, and sometimes it only comes down to who can get to the talent first.

 

Total copout there. The talent has been there, we've been horrible at identifying it (and being cheap as f*** hasn't helped).

 

International Scouting is completely different, there is literally no regulations in the Dominican, and the level of corruption is beyond description. (Which is why Sandy Alderson with MLB is working so hard to bring change to the region.)

 

No excuse. When you have to go back to the late 90's to find a legitimate player we signed from Latin America there is something wrong.

 

By no means am I attacking the original poster, just attacking what he is proposing. If you want to go around calling for people's heads, you better have an idea of who you want to replace them and a reason why they'd be an improvement over what we have now.

 

See above.

[bigruss]

I don't post often, but when after reading this thread I thought I'd say a few things:

 

1. This team is in first place, the goal each and every year is to put ourselves in position to win in October, at this point you can't say that we are not in that position. There is still a week left until the trade deadline. Kenny Williams will do everything in his power to plug the holes for the stretch run.

 

2. If you want Ozzie and Kenny fired, who would you bring in, and why? If you're calling for their heads I'd like to hear who you think could do a better job with the same amount of resources.

People don't realize how difficult it is to scout and find talent. The talent pool is so limited every year, and sometimes it only comes down to who can get to the talent first.

 

International Scouting is completely different, there is literally no regulations in the Dominican, and the level of corruption is beyond description. (Which is why Sandy Alderson with MLB is working so hard to bring change to the region.)

 

By no means am I attacking the original poster, just attacking what he is proposing. If you want to go around calling for people's heads, you better have an idea of who you want to replace them and a reason why they'd be an improvement over what we have now.

I really disagree with this. Why do the Red Sox have one of the best farm systems? It's because they have no problem drafting tough to sign guys, guys who have the potential to be stars. They arent afraid to spend on the draft, and it pays off. They may draft at #25 or later in the draft, but they sign top 15 talent guys.

 

International Scouting is a different animal, but it follows the same basic principles. You scout well, you putout the money, and you will have talent coming out of it. Depending on how much effort and money you put into it will determine your success rate.

 

Even if KW does make a move to keep this team in first place, what will our farm system look like? Say we do trade for Fielder, we give up Hudson, Viciedo, Flowers, and maybe one or two more players (and not saying that this would get it done for either side). Next year, what do you do? You bring Fielder back at 16 mil, but then Paulie is a FA and prob demands 7-10 mill a year, AJ is a FA so how much will he make? You have raises to players such as Danks, and the payroll will most likely be around 95-105 mill depending on attendance figures. You dont have a lot of flexibility after the raises and having Fielder at that price tag, and now you have no one to replace your pending FAs, and you probably don have the payroll to resign them.

[greg775]

By no means am I attacking the original poster, just attacking what he is proposing. If you want to go around calling for people's heads, you better have an idea of who you want to replace them and a reason why they'd be an improvement over what we have now.

 

I'm not attacking anybody either, but it would make threads more remarkable (and amusing) if people that call for heads would say whom they want to come in.

Cause generally that sparks some fireworks as well, when people realize the suggested replacement has big-time flaws, too.

 

I would say if Oz left, I'd like Joe Torre (and there were no tears shed in NY when he left).

GM? Who the f*** knows? I have no idea who I'd want.

[fathom]

The biggest reason our international scouting sucked for over a decade was for a portion of that, was the Wilder fiasco.

Edited July 26, 2010 by fathom

[Jordan4life_2007]

I really disagree with this. Why do the Red Sox have one of the best farm systems? It's because they have no problem drafting tough to sign guys, guys who have the potential to be stars. They arent afraid to spend on the draft, and it pays off. They may draft at #25 or later in the draft, but they sign top 15 talent guys.

 

International Scouting is a different animal, but it follows the same basic principles. You scout well, you putout the money, and you will have talent coming out of it. Depending on how much effort and money you put into it will determine your success rate.

 

Even if KW does make a move to keep this team in first place, what will our farm system look like? Say we do trade for Fielder, we give up Hudson, Viciedo, Flowers, and maybe one or two more players (and not saying that this would get it done for either side). Next year, what do you do? You bring Fielder back at 16 mil, but then Paulie is a FA and prob demands 7-10 mill a year, AJ is a FA so how much will he make? You have raises to players such as Danks, and the payroll will most likely be around 95-105 mill depending on attendance figures. You dont have a lot of flexibility after the raises and having Fielder at that price tag, and now you have no one to replace your pending FAs, and you probably don have the payroll to resign them.

 

Talk to the Rangers and Rockies about how tough international scouting is.

[bigruss]

The biggest reason our international scouting sucked for over a decade was for a portion of that, KW was busy looking the other way while Dave Wilder was acting unethically.

That is where the loyalty this organization has will bite it in its ass. I do think, for the most part, that loyalty is a good thing, but the Sox get too caught up in it. People need to be held accountable for their decisions or lack of decisions. Loyalty to your employees can bring loyalty and goodwill back, but when you become blind because of it, it creates situations like the Wilder one.

[jhonnydanks]

drink. relax. we have a good home stand coming up. jordan danks isn't even good. don't stop.

[bigruss]

Believe me when I say people in the organization knew that Wilder wasn't being ethical.

Not surprised, and I wouldnt be surprised if some if not all of those people still have their jobs because they are good friends of Jr, KW, etc. Hell, for all I know KW knew about it but wouldnt make a strong enough move to stop it.

[scenario]

Those are potentially disasterous mistakes though. Not having a farm system to upgrade your team with, whether its through a trade or promotion, or not being able to replenish your team after making a trade, can keep a team stagnant and potentially losing ground or a division lead.

 

Of course, part of the reason for us having a 'horrible' farm system is that we keep trading away talent for other players.

 

Ex. Chris Carter was MiLB player of the year last year... would have made our farm system look much better if we had kept him, right? But then we wouldn't have Carlos Quentin... etc., etc.

Edited July 26, 2010 by scenario

[chw42]

drink. relax. we have a good home stand coming up. jordan danks isn't even good. don't stop.

 

get it get it

[bigruss]

Of course, part of the reason for us having a 'horrible' farm system is that we keep trading away talent for other players.

 

Ex. Chris Carter was MiLB player of the year last year... would have made our farm system look much better if we had kept him, right? But then we wouldn't have Carlos Quentin... etc., etc.

I hvae no problem with moves like that, you trade a young prospect for a young MLB player with potential to be a star that is blocked by other players. Carter was a good prospect when we traded him, but had major concerns. That is a High Risk/High reward type trade.

 

The problem I have, is that we dont have depth in the farm system still. If we do trade for Dunn or Fielder, you can basically say we would have nothing in the farm system.

[iamshack]

I will be less of a White Sox fan the day Kenny Williams is no longer the General Manager of the Chicago White Sox.

 

I am so tired of this nonsense about farm teams. Look around, people. Look at who the best-rated farm systems have been in the last 5-10 years and then look at what they have actually produced. The once amazing systems of the Angels and Dodgers, loaded to the gils with player after player after player. And where has it got them?

 

The Red Sox are a very unique organization, and I often hope that we will model ours after theirs. That being the case, there are not a whole lot of other organizations out there that I would want our FO to try and replicate.