I want Ozzie and KW gone.

[ThunderBolt]

Ozzie is the only one who truly needs to go. The sooner the better. The lineups he puts out there on a daily basis cannot be defended as anything other than a man operation not from a place of logic, but by gun. The way he approaches running a baseball team is self-defeating. I want a manager who puts his team in the best position to win, not one that positions the team towards failure.

[fathom]

I will be less of a White Sox fan the day Kenny Williams is no longer the General Manager of the Chicago White Sox.

 

I am so tired of this nonsense about farm teams. Look around, people. Look at who the best-rated farm systems have been in the last 5-10 years and then look at what they have actually produced. The once amazing systems of the Angels and Dodgers, loaded to the gils with player after player after player. And where has it got them?

 

The Red Sox are a very unique organization, and I often hope that we will model ours after theirs. That being the case, there are not a whole lot of other organizations out there that I would want our FO to try and replicate.

 

I get where you're going at, and I'm kinda with you. Thing is, KW needs a farm system because that's how he makes trades. We don't contend for free agents and or hard signability/high reward draftees, so KW needs that farm system in order to make trades. Unfortunately, the farm system is pretty dried up.

[CWSOX45]

It's not hard at all to scout/find talent. You just have to be willing to pay for it. It's no surprise that the Angels were easily able to pull off a deal like this, as they always spend in the draft/international market.

 

The Angels develop talent, they find the tools just like everyone else does.

 

How many draft picks did the Angels have in the first couple rounds of this years draft? That's why they were able to make this deal for Haren. It's because they had 5 picks out of the first 40. They had no problem parting with the talent that they did because they knew more was coming in.

 

 

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

I will be less of a White Sox fan the day Kenny Williams is no longer the General Manager of the Chicago White Sox.

 

I am so tired of this nonsense about farm teams. Look around, people. Look at who the best-rated farm systems have been in the last 5-10 years and then look at what they have actually produced. The once amazing systems of the Angels and Dodgers, loaded to the gils with player after player after player. And where has it got them?

 

The Red Sox are a very unique organization, and I often hope that we will model ours after theirs. That being the case, there are not a whole lot of other organizations out there that I would want our FO to try and replicate.

 

The Rays, Rangers, Reds and Rockies (two playoff births in the last three years) are not in first place or near it because of FA signings. The Dodgers have produced Kershaw/Billingsley/Broxton/Kemp/Ethier/Loney/Martin. Not sure where you're coming from there. I agree about the Angels.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Jordan4life

[fathom]

The Angels develop talent, they find the tools just like everyone else does.

 

How many draft picks did the Angels have in the first couple rounds of this years draft? That's why they were able to make this deal for Haren. It's because they had 5 picks out of the first 40. They had no problem parting with the talent that they did because they knew more was coming in.

 

The Angels for years have drafted and signed guys who fell due to signability concerns (ie: J. Weaver)

[AJUribe]

name one gm better than kenny and i will agree with you, ozzie newsome of the baltimore ravens and theo epstein are in the conversation.

[bigruss]

I will be less of a White Sox fan the day Kenny Williams is no longer the General Manager of the Chicago White Sox.

 

I am so tired of this nonsense about farm teams. Look around, people. Look at who the best-rated farm systems have been in the last 5-10 years and then look at what they have actually produced. The once amazing systems of the Angels and Dodgers, loaded to the gils with player after player after player. And where has it got them?

 

The Red Sox are a very unique organization, and I often hope that we will model ours after theirs. That being the case, there are not a whole lot of other organizations out there that I would want our FO to try and replicate.

If KW invests more into scouting, drafting, and developing I would have little distaste for him. I like alot of his qualities, but he has handcuffed himself with the farm system.

 

I think its ignorant to believe that you can have a strong MLB team that can be flexible and make moves during a season without a good farm system. Teams will trade top line players for either other top line players or good prospects. If oyu are in a playoff hunt, you would rather not detract from your team to add to your team thus you want a good farm system to trade with.

 

The Angels had over half the equation right, they had a great farm system with a good MLB team, but wouldnt trade their prospects for impact players at the MLB level, which limited their ability to really become the best in baseball.

 

The Red Sox, as much as I hate them, are the best overall run organization in baseball, and their formula should be emulated.

[CWSOX45]

Alexi Ramirez and Dayan Viciedo were both signed out of Cuba. That works for me. We also didn't have to wait a long time for them to develop, Ramirez was major league ready and Viciedo wasn't far behind..

 

 

 

[scenario]

It's not hard at all to scout/find talent. You just have to be willing to pay for it. It's no surprise that the Angels were easily able to pull off a deal like this, as they always spend in the draft/international market.

 

The reason the Angels were able to pull off this deal has nothing to do with their drafting.

 

It has everything to do with their willingness to give up a starting pitcher who was an all-star two years ago.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

name one gm better than kenny and i will agree with you, ozzie newsome of the baltimore ravens and theo epstein are in the conversation.

 

 

LOL wut?

[Jordan4life_2007]

LOL wut?

 

I was going to quote him but didn't know how to respond.

[greg775]

The Red Sox are a very unique organization, and I often hope that we will model ours after theirs.

 

We had our chance as did everybody else. They were smart enough to hire the great BILL JAMES!!!

Bill James rocks! I love that guy.

[ThunderBolt]

I've mentioned a few times that both Ozzie and KW would get majorly exposed if we didn't have the luxury of playing in what mostly has been a weak division since they've been together. We go into EVERY season with holes and the common consensus is "Wait until the deadline and will upgrade." We wouldn't be able to do that in the AL east. It'd be nice to go INTO a season without holes. Yes, I know this isn't fantasy baseball and you're not going to be loaded at every position. But there were options out there. We dropped the ball just because.

This is a lot better than I could ever say it. This organization is far too comfortable resting on its laurels hoping that problems work themselves out. This team didn’t have to be put in the situation where losing one piece of the pitching puzzle virtually eliminates them from the trading market. A market that they vowed to search when their doomed to failure DH experiment, inevitably failed. If we lose this division, it’s a because of problems of our own choosing.

[fathom]

The reason the Angels were able to pull off this deal has nothing to do with their drafting.

 

It has everything to do with their willingness to give up a starting pitcher who was an all-star two years ago.

 

That deal doesn't get done if Skaggs isn't invovled, IMO.

[CWSOX45]

The Angels for years have drafted and signed guys who fell due to signability concerns (ie: J. Weaver)

 

I'm well aware. However they also have a track record of developing talent at the minor league level, not all of their picks were signed "over slot"

 

The Angels and the Twins are two of the most successful organizations in terms of developing talent form their minor league farm system.

 

However in my opinion the Angels made this move because they had 5 of the top 40 picks in this years draft. Pretty easy to stock a farm system when you have those picks.

[Jordan4life_2007]

And everyone of those teams has been at the bottom of their divisions for most of the last decade.

 

True. But these teams didn't get to where they are today off of just high first round picks.

[ThunderBolt]

Alexi Ramirez and Dayan Viciedo were both signed out of Cuba. That works for me. We also didn't have to wait a long time for them to develop, Ramirez was major league ready and Viciedo wasn't far behind..

It's comforting that our fool of a manager refuses to even play one of these guys.

[fathom]

I haven't had to say this in almost two months, but if Steve Stone has any connections with this team, he believes Rick Hahn will be the GM in the not-so-distant-future.

[jhonnydanks]

get it get it

 

you da man

[bigruss]

I'm well aware. However they also have a track record of developing talent at the minor league level, not all of their picks were signed "over slot"

 

The Angels and the Twins are two of the most successful organizations in terms of developing talent form their minor league farm system.

 

However in my opinion the Angels made this move because they had 5 of the top 40 picks in this years draft. Pretty easy to stock a farm system when you have those picks.

Its a cycle though, you draft well, you develop all star players, they leave in FA because you have farm system depth, you gain draft picks, you replenish your farm system depth. Repeat. You keep your MLB talent level along with your payroll and the amount of flexibility for trades, etc.

[ThunderBolt]

I haven't had to say this in almost two months, but if Steve Stone has any connections with this team, he believes Rick Hahn will be the GM in the not-so-distant-future.

A move like this needs to be coupled with the end of the Ozzie era. It would be disastrous to handcuff a saber guy like Hahn with a field manager like Ozzie.

[ThunderBolt]

Its a cycle though, you draft well, you develop all star players, they leave in FA because you have farm system depth, you gain draft picks, you replenish your farm system depth. Repeat. You keep your MLB talent level along with your payroll and the amount of flexibility for trades, etc.

The moneyball Athletics did this to perfection. Draft, Develop, Compete, Reload, Develop, Compete.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Thunderbolt

[fathom]

A move like this needs to be coupled with the end of the Ozzie era. It would be disastrous to handcuff a saber guy like Hahn with a field manager like Ozzie.

 

At least Hahn and Ozzie get along. Supposedly they did not like each other about 6 months ago.

[iamshack]

I get where you're going at, and I'm kinda with you. Thing is, KW needs a farm system because that's how he makes trades. We don't contend for free agents and or hard signability/high reward draftees, so KW needs that farm system in order to make trades. Unfortunately, the farm system is pretty dried up.

And how long have we been hearing about the farm system drying up? Every year it's the apocalypse is coming! There will be no talent left to trade! And then, a few guys come along and we suddenly have a few more pieces to trade.

 

I want to have talent to develop as much as the next guy. And I hope that we do devote more resources to doing so. But this fantastical idea that these other organizations have farm systems that have been producing all-star caliber players one year after another is pure fiction. The rates of attrition are so great that even systems that look loaded and are rated as so usually don't end up producing huge quantities of above-average major league talent.

 

All you have to do is go back and peruse Baseball America over the past 10 years and the systems that were rated highly and try to find all these outstanding MLB all stars that came from those systems. You'll find them to be full of names of guys that you've either never heard of, or that you haven't heard of in a long, long time (like Obi Wan Kenobi).

 

And for every player we don't seem to be able to develop ourselves, we do find them in other ways, whether they are young guys that are a bit down on their luck in other organizations, or guys that are coming off injuries or a down year with something to prove.

 

I'm certainly not arguing that a farm system isn't important, but there are a s***load of costs associated with trying to develop your own talent.

 

Look at what we have gone through with Beckham this year. Now imagine that times 2 or 3 every year with these kids. Sometimes, it's much easier, and much less expensive, to go with the veteran talent over the young kids just because of the opportunity costs involved.

Edited July 26, 2010 by iamshack

[fathom]

And how long have we been hearing about the farm system drying up? Every year it's the apocalypse is coming! There will be no talent left to trade! And then, a few guys come along and we suddenly have a few more pieces to trade.

 

Needless to say that injuries killed the farm system this season.