I want Ozzie and KW gone.

[bigruss]

Your company needs to improve its shipping/receiving process but has to funnel money from sales to make that work. Do you do it? IMO, the answer is maybe, depending on what the cost is.

 

The club wants to improve its DH situation, but at what cost? Before the season started, it would have been a cash consideration. Now, it's prospects. Either way, it costs something. It's a risk analysis type of situation: do what you think gives you the best chance of a positive return. I think KW has done a phenomenal job of just that. I don't think, over his tenure, he's ever just ignored holes on the team, but he may have chosen not to plug them at the cost of other facets of the organization.

 

If it were as simple as your example makes it sound, "get players to fill holes", and we had a GM who had his thumb up his butt instead, I would totally agree with you. You'd have to be a fool NOT to agree with that. The fact is, though, that it's not that simple: if you plug all holes at any cost, you're going to wind up with a HUGE deficit somewhere in your system. And most of the moves KW has made have been positive, some overwhelmingly so. Very few of his gambles have had a negative impact on the franchise. That could not be said for drafting during his early tenure, but even talent evaluation, of late, has seemingly improved.

 

And, as someone brought up earlier, you have stats like WAR for players where the value of a standard "replacement-level" guy is taken into account. You could (and should) take that into account for GM's and managers as well, IMO. Sure, KW isn't perfect but where does he compare with a standard, replacement-level GM? Do you really think he's worse than any random GM we'd be likely to end up with? As far as Ozzie goes, I could take him or leave him, but I do think he's got positive WAR-esque value too so I'm not rushing off to the scrap heap to make an exchange.

 

Verdict: Ozzie can stay or go, I vote stay with the utmost lukewarmness. But KW does a fine job and should stay on IMO.

I would expect my company to trim extra costs in one area and reinvest them in another area which would bring more resources in the future.

 

If the Sox invested $3-5 million more each year in the draft, and another extra million or so on new/better coaches in the minors to help develop, you would be seeing a drastic difference in the minor league output. Think about it, that is like Teahen's salary, if you make smarter choices on your payroll then you can use that money on the draft.

 

And people apparently do not read my posts. I have agreed that I like Kenny, I like alot of what he does, I appreciate that he is aggressive, but he has downsides and I want those to be improved. I want to see organizational changes in philosophy, in development, etc to make this organization the best possible. I dont expect them to reach the heights of the Red Sox or Yanks in terms of payroll, but there is no reason why we shouldnt be drafting as well as the Red Sox because the difference in resouces spent is not terrible to overcome.

 

For all those who say we should be happy with where we are at, I agree with us being in first place, but how long will that last if we dont make a move? How long will this franchise be able to field a first place team without impact players from the draft? Do you really want to go from fringe all-star team to a team out of it like '07 and '09?

 

We are in a unique situation in the Central, where we can compete every single year because we dont have the albatross' of the Yanks and Red Sox. We spend the amount of resources necessary each year to be able to compete in our division, yet we dont do it consistently. We need to reevaluate and reinivest in our weaker areas to make this franchise strong not only short term, but long term.

[Balta1701]

For all those who say we should be happy with where we are at, I agree with us being in first place, but how long will that last if we dont make a move? How long will this franchise be able to field a first place team without impact players from the draft? Do you really want to go from fringe all-star team to a team out of it like '07 and '09?

First of all...the only year we were really "out of it" was 2007. We hovered close to .500 for most of 2009.

 

Secondly...you ask how longn this team will be able to field a first place team without impact players from the draft. My response is...well, they've done it with that format for 4 of the last 6 years, if that's how you're describing them now.

 

They've been in first place at some legit point in the season in 2005, 2006, 2008, and 2010. The only year that they were truly out of it was 2007. Whatever their current scheme is...if you want to describe it as not having impact players from the draft...they've been quite successful for it.

[southsider2k5]

My biggest 2 gripes with the Sox organization are: 1.They need to spend more on the draft and international scouting/signings. If you have a top 10 talent available to draft where you are, or if you have a chance to sign a top international free agent, unless there are some serious question marks with injury, you take them and sign them, especially if you are a mid market team. You should spend less on free agents and more on developing your own players that are under your control for 6 years. 2. You should not trade all of your top ten prospects away if you are intent on keeping payroll in a $90-105 million range and compete with the best of them. Break in a pitcher and a position player, if you think they are ready, each year. You pick 3 guys you think are going to be the best major league players each year and keep them or break them in over the next few years and make the other 7 available for trade. Repeat prospect process each year.

 

Chris Sale says hi!

[bigruss]

First of all...the only year we were really "out of it" was 2007. We hovered close to .500 for most of 2009.

 

Secondly...you ask how longn this team will be able to field a first place team without impact players from the draft. My response is...well, they've done it with that format for 4 of the last 6 years, if that's how you're describing them now.

 

They've been in first place at some legit point in the season in 2005, 2006, 2008, and 2010. The only year that they were truly out of it was 2007. Whatever their current scheme is...if you want to describe it as not having impact players from the draft...they've been quite successful for it.

You cant just look at the past though, because the core of your team is changing drastically in the next 1 or 2 years. We had young guys who grew into studs, Beurhle, Konerko, etc that have stayed with the team, or FAs like Dye and AJ who really panned out. But with today's FA market, where pickings are really slim I dont see much improvement coming from there, not to mention the prices for them, and with our lack of depth of impact talent at the minor leagues you can very reasonably ask, who is going to play and carry this franchise in the future? Is Beckham, Danks, Floyd, Santos, etc enough? Can a team without Paulie, AJ, etc really survive and keep winning?

 

We are losing a big part of our franchise's core, and there are a few replacements, but the question is are they enough to replace them with? And if they arent, and there arent the right rpiced/available FAs to replace them with, then what are you going to do? Youre back to the Ive got $.50 in hte minors and the other team is demanding a $1.

[Balta1701]

The remarkable thing about the Sox though is that you could have said just as easily that the core of the team was declining/lost in late 2006/all of 2007. We were calling up guys like Andy Gonzalez because we had no depth, for example. I'm as worried as anyone about having to replace 8 guys this offseason (that's why I generally think that moving Hudson, Viciedo, or Santos in a trade is foolish)...but let's look at the roster turnaround from 2007-2008.

 

New starting SS. New starting LF. New starting CF Bust (swisher). 2 youngins who had struggled the previous season sliding into the rotation (Floyd and Danks). 2 new big money guys in the bullpen (Linebrink and Dotel). Bench overhauled/new backup catcher. That's basically 7-9 new guys depending on how you count a guy like D1, and in 1 season, they whipped around from worst to first.

 

Frankly, that overhaul was harder than the one we have to do this year.

[shakes]

Chris Sale says hi!

 

Alexei and Dayan say hello, as well! Trayce Thompson says whats up!

 

I agree it would be nice if the Sox put a little more resources towards the draft and international signing. But, there has definitely been a shift in that direction the last few years. This team likes to put most of it's resources towards the big club, and they have been pretty successful with that approach.

[caulfield12]

The remarkable thing about the Sox though is that you could have said just as easily that the core of the team was declining/lost in late 2006/all of 2007. We were calling up guys like Andy Gonzalez because we had no depth, for example. I'm as worried as anyone about having to replace 8 guys this offseason (that's why I generally think that moving Hudson, Viciedo, or Santos in a trade is foolish)...but let's look at the roster turnaround from 2007-2008.

 

New starting SS. New starting LF. New starting CF Bust (swisher). 2 youngins who had struggled the previous season sliding into the rotation (Floyd and Danks). 2 new big money guys in the bullpen (Linebrink and Dotel). Bench overhauled/new backup catcher. That's basically 7-9 new guys depending on how you count a guy like D1, and in 1 season, they whipped around from worst to first.

 

Frankly, that overhaul was harder than the one we have to do this year.

 

 

Not only that, but the transition from 2004 to 2005 was just as, if not more, dramatic.

 

People already forget how bleak 2007, when seemingly the lone bright spots were not trading away Buehrle/Dye (etc.) and the second-half play of Josh Fields, Jerry Owens and Ehren Wasserman.

 

KW struck lightning in a bottle with Danks, Floyd, Ramirez and Quentin, that can't be replicated every season, and Peavy/Rios, while not backfiring, didn't exactly help much to right the ship and get it headed into the playoffs last year. Rios was totally lost and Peavy was injured.

 

What's the major difference between then and now? Maybe two of our best signings in Gordon Beckham and Dayan Viciedo. We're really not THAT far off, compared to how things looked in 2007, second half of 2009 (well, Peavy came back at the end to give some hope) or for much of the first two months of 2010. And, despite Trout's play, I still like Mitchell's upside overall.

 

Of course, the odds of "stealing" a Danks and Floyd from other organizations, that just doesn't happen very often. We even got back Gio Gonzalez, who has quietly turned out to be a nifty little pitcher out on the West Coast.

 

KW's biggest problem MIGHT be tinkering too much, and this season ("Ozzie's season") has somehow got us this far, I think there's a tremendous amount of pressure not to subtract one of the current guys from that clubhouse mix.

 

 

 

 

[greg775]

I would expect my company to trim extra costs in one area and reinvest them in another area which would bring more resources in the future.

 

Your company must be a good one. The companies I've examined in this depression (it's more than a recession) are really treating workers like s*** and implementing pay freezes or cuts for the second straight year.

 

I can't believe a majority of you do not think this thread is kind of embarrassing with the Sox having won 10 in a row at home and still hanging onto first place by a thread. We're in the pennant race entering August again.

[RockRaines]

Your company must be a good one. The companies I've examined in this depression (it's more than a recession) are really treating workers like s*** and implementing pay freezes or cuts for the second straight year.

 

I can't believe a majority of you do not think this thread is kind of embarrassing with the Sox having won 10 in a row at home and still hanging onto first place by a thread. We're in the pennant race entering August again.

It's not embarrassing as much as its hilarious. Like I said above, the cyclical nature of the criticism in this thread is ironic. On one hand you have someone complaining the the team doesnt build from within, on the other its people saying that the team doesnt go for it at the deadline and in the FA market. Its been a really long time since the White Sox have had such consistently aggressive leadership committed to winning. But like the saying goes, find the hottest girl in the world and I'll show you a guy who is sick of her s***.

[whitesoxfan101]

It's not embarrassing as much as its hilarious. Like I said above, the cyclical nature of the criticism in this thread is ironic. On one hand you have someone complaining the the team doesnt build from within, on the other its people saying that the team doesnt go for it at the deadline and in the FA market. Its been a really long time since the White Sox have had such consistently aggressive leadership committed to winning. But like the saying goes, find the hottest girl in the world and I'll show you a guy who is sick of her s***.

 

I thought the saying was show me the hottest girl in the world and I'll show you a guy who's tired of doing her. At any rate, I'm not sure KW and Ozzie would qualify as the "hottest girl in the world". Particularly Kenny, who has 7 postseasons at home out of 9 on his resume with us. He and Oz have done a better job than most White Sox leadership in the past, but that's a case of tallest midget. I will say they have partially been a "victim" (if you want to call it that) of heightened expectations since 2005. But that's what they said they've wanted all along, to raise the standard.

[lostfan]

It's not embarrassing as much as its hilarious. Like I said above, the cyclical nature of the criticism in this thread is ironic. On one hand you have someone complaining the the team doesnt build from within, on the other its people saying that the team doesnt go for it at the deadline and in the FA market. Its been a really long time since the White Sox have had such consistently aggressive leadership committed to winning. But like the saying goes, find the hottest girl in the world and I'll show you a guy who is sick of her s***.

You're actually talking about several different individual people and lumping them all together into a single stream of consciousness.

[greg775]

I do think this is the thread of the century, though. The timing of it is mind boggling. And no I don't drink the koolaid. I think the Twins will ultimately win the division by six or seven games. But as of today we are in the race which isn't really a fireable offense for either of the above mentioned subjects.

[fathom]

I do think this is the thread of the century, though. The timing of it is mind boggling. And no I don't drink the koolaid. I think the Twins will ultimately win the division by six or seven games. But as of today we are in the race which isn't really a fireable offense for either of the above mentioned subjects.

 

And then if the Sox do end up 6-7 games out, and someone created a thread ripping on KW and Ozzie, there would be a handful of posters saying "I didn't see you complaining about them when they were leading the AL Central".

[greg775]

And then if the Sox do end up 6-7 games out, and someone created a thread ripping on KW and Ozzie, there would be a handful of posters saying "I didn't see you complaining about them when they were leading the AL Central".

 

So they are paving the way for that now I guess.

 

Fathom, you must agree at the ridiculousness of the timing of this thread? I mean the team is coming off that wild win streak, the road trip wasn't a disaster and there's a big home win streak going on.

Viciedo is looking like the real deal; Danks and Floyd are on fire. Alexei is looking like a real ss of the future, etc.

When we fall six or seven out, I would suspect this place will be on fire demanding resignations and firings because it's pretty bad right now and we're in first place (til tonight probably). I mean this is a nonsequitir (sp) deluxe.

People can't possibly want these two fired with where we stand today or I think they need some counseling.

[BigSqwert]

So they are paving the way for that now I guess.

 

Fathom, you must agree at the ridiculousness of the timing of this thread? I mean the team is coming off that wild win streak, the road trip wasn't a disaster and there's a big home win streak going on.

Viciedo is looking like the real deal; Danks and Floyd are on fire. Alexei is looking like a real ss of the future, etc.

When we fall six or seven out, I would suspect this place will be on fire demanding resignations and firings because it's pretty bad right now and we're in first place (til tonight probably). I mean this is a nonsequitir (sp) deluxe.

People can't possibly want these two fired with where we stand today or I think they need some counseling.

That's debatable.

[whitesoxfan101]

I agree that the timing of this thread is wrong, as I said in my first post in here, you can't be firing people when in first place. But if we fail to make the playoffs this year, that's an 80 percent failure rate for KW in 10 years (I consider any year not in the playoffs a failure for us, which considering the way our organization talks every year, seems fair) and such a ratio will lead to people calling for his head naturally. And Ozzie is always going to have his critics between some of his bizarre commentary and bizarre in game managing decisions.

Edited July 28, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[chw42]

I do think this is the thread of the century, though. The timing of it is mind boggling. And no I don't drink the koolaid. I think the Twins will ultimately win the division by six or seven games. But as of today we are in the race which isn't really a fireable offense for either of the above mentioned subjects.

 

So let me get this straight. You think we're not good enough to win the division. Yet, you are complaining about others saying this team isn't good enough.

 

I don't care if where we are in the standings. Criticism is not always time dependent. When you see something wrong and there is something wrong, that wrong isn't going to go fix itself on its own.

 

You're basically saying that it's okay to second guess when we lose the division while it's not okay to first guess now.

Edited July 28, 2010 by chw42

[The Ginger Kid]

You're actually talking about several different individual people and lumping them all together into a single stream of consciousness.

But aren't those all individual arguments for the same thing, ie, "I want Ozzie and KW gone"?

[lostfan]

But aren't those all individual arguments for the same thing, ie, "I want Ozzie and KW gone"?

But from different people. Who think different things.

[fathom]

I agree that the timing of this thread is wrong, as I said in my first post in here, you can't be firing people when in first place. But if we fail to make the playoffs this year, that's an 80 percent failure rate for KW in 10 years (I consider any year not in the playoffs a failure for us, which considering the way our organization talks every year, seems fair) and such a ratio will lead to people calling for his head naturally. And Ozzie is always going to have his critics between some of his bizarre commentary and bizarre in game managing decisions.

 

Perfect post, and greg, this is how I feel about things.

[ptatc]

It's not embarrassing as much as its hilarious. Like I said above, the cyclical nature of the criticism in this thread is ironic. On one hand you have someone complaining the the team doesnt build from within, on the other its people saying that the team doesnt go for it at the deadline and in the FA market. Its been a really long time since the White Sox have had such consistently aggressive leadership committed to winning. But like the saying goes, find the hottest girl in the world and I'll show you a guy who is sick of her s***.

 

I think alot of the issue is that many people here have really only known the Sox management with Ozzie and KW. Right or wrong this is their point of view. They haven't lived through other GM's or managers, so it's only natural to do the grass is greener scenario. Many of the same posters have been tearing other GM's apart for recent trades. Most new GM's are unknown quantities and you aren't sure what you will get. It will be interesting on what the opinions will be once KW and Ozzie are gone. Having lived through Sox GM's and mangers since the 70's, I'm only too happy to see KW and Ozzie here. I can't think of a better GM or manager the Sox have had in 35 years.

[bigruss]

It's not embarrassing as much as its hilarious. Like I said above, the cyclical nature of the criticism in this thread is ironic. On one hand you have someone complaining the the team doesnt build from within, on the other its people saying that the team doesnt go for it at the deadline and in the FA market. Its been a really long time since the White Sox have had such consistently aggressive leadership committed to winning. But like the saying goes, find the hottest girl in the world and I'll show you a guy who is sick of her s***.

If this is directed at me, then you clearly have not read my posts or I have done a s*** job explaining myself (and for all ive posted in this thread I feel like ive been pretty clear, but I cant be the judge of that).

 

Ive been trying to say that I appreciate we are in first place, and that I like KW. Hes very good at some things, like being aggressive, he evaluates big league players pretty well, dumps prospects that he doesnt foresee a good future in.

 

Ive just been clamoring to invest in an area we have done poor in, one that could really help this team out, one taht adds good young talent and the flexibilty to go after guys like Fielder, Cabrera, Dunn, when they are available and actually get them.

 

 

[whitesoxfan101]

I think alot of the issue is that many people here have really only known the Sox management with Ozzie and KW. Right or wrong this is their point of view. They haven't lived through other GM's or managers, so it's only natural to do the grass is greener scenario. Many of the same posters have been tearing other GM's apart for recent trades. Most new GM's are unknown quantities and you aren't sure what you will get. It will be interesting on what the opinions will be once KW and Ozzie are gone. Having lived through Sox GM's and mangers since the 70's, I'm only too happy to see KW and Ozzie here. I can't think of a better GM or manager the Sox have had in 35 years.

 

I will not argue the point that KW and Oz are the best GM/manager combo the Sox have had in the past 4 decades or so. But just because we have a long previous history of ineptitude at those spots doesn't mean we should give the current guys a pass because they aren't terrible as well.

Edited July 28, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[bigruss]

I think alot of the issue is that many people here have really only known the Sox management with Ozzie and KW. Right or wrong this is their point of view. They haven't lived through other GM's or managers, so it's only natural to do the grass is greener scenario. Many of the same posters have been tearing other GM's apart for recent trades. Most new GM's are unknown quantities and you aren't sure what you will get. It will be interesting on what the opinions will be once KW and Ozzie are gone. Having lived through Sox GM's and mangers since the 70's, I'm only too happy to see KW and Ozzie here. I can't think of a better GM or manager the Sox have had in 35 years.

Im not KWs or Ozzies biggest fans, but I know that every manager and GM gets s*** on by their fans, its jsut gonna happen. I just see no problem wanting more as a fan, to want your team to be improving continuously in many facets of the game, to strive for the best MLB team and the best farm system (that then infuses talent to the MLB roster or is traded for MLB talent). I mean, the ROI on a good farm system is so freakin high its ridiculous.

[ptatc]

I will not argue the point that KW and Oz are the best GM/manager combo the Sox have had in the past 4 decades or so. But just because we have a long previous history of ineptitude at those spots doesn't mean we should give the current guys a pass because they aren't terrible as well.

 

I think if you look around the league they are a fairly successful combination as well. Outside of the Yankees and Boston has there been another combo with more wins or titles?