I want Ozzie and KW gone.

[bigruss]

Fields had an OPS+ of 10 in 2008 along with a .917 fielding percentage in his time up here. THAT is why they brought back Joe Crede.

Fields had an OPS+101 in 2007, which was just around what Crede was averaging. Crede's defense was better, but between his back and offensive struggles, devoting 5 million to him in 08 was a bad idea.

 

And an OPS+ in 14 games, really? Thats your argument?

Edited July 29, 2010 by bigruss22

[OilCan]

Wow. This thread has legs. From J4L's good-natured rant to the late argument of Crede.

 

Meanwhile the Sox keep grinding. Keep it going guys.

[greg775]

OK. I called 3 different Sox fans friends of mine tonight while I was making a long drive on the highway, friends who live in the great city of Chicago ,to get some different perspective than on the board.

 

All 3 liked Oz and KW and did laugh when I informed them of the title of this thread and laughed more when I told them how I am the site's whipping boy.

 

One guy was at the game Jenks blew against the Blue Jays early in the year, and was crushed by that loss (he took his mom and wife and kids there for Mother's Day), then returned to the Cell for a game during Jenks' hot streak.

Some guy seated behind him at the Cell was complaining about Jenks and my friend actually turned around and defended Jenks. And he was at that one game Jenks blew a three-run lead early in the year.

 

Another said he didn't like Thome and didn't want a Thome clone coming back who couldn't go from first to third on a hit. He mentioned Dunn by name, not wanting him.

 

And one other said he LOVED this team because it had heart and was finding ways to win. He said it had a chance to become one of his favorite Sox teams the way it came back from 9.5 games out and the s***ty April/May. He also said he loved Oz for not "quitting on the team" as he said Piniella has on the Cubs. Whatever that means, he said it.

 

No offense to anybody here, truly no offense, but it was refreshing that all 3 had only positive things to say about the Sox. And I did not shape the conversation in any way to make them support the Sox. Their positivity came out on their own. And they all are South Siders.

 

Positivity!!! Gotta love it!

 

GO SOX!

 

And f*** you Twins. That team is amazing every damn year.

Edited July 29, 2010 by greg775

[caulfield12]

You would still be adding salary, which makes the move impossible.

 

It would be adding $1.25 million for one season.

 

However, if you kept Pods at the same number he's getting from the Royals, you make up the difference with Pierre and you can use that extra money you save on Pierre in 2011 and Teahen in 2011 and 2012 to invest in the draft.

 

That's theoreticallly speaking, of course.

 

And what's done is done.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Posted this in the trade catch-all thread.

 

So in the last year the Phillies have been able to trade for Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay and it looks like Roy Oswalt all while not sacrificing anything from the major league team and holding on to their #1 prospect in Dominic Brown. Yeah, farm system depth is really overrated.

[lostfan]

Posted this in the trade catch-all thread.

 

So in the last year the Phillies have been able to trade for Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay and it looks like Roy Oswalt all while not sacrificing anything from the major league team and holding on to their #1 prospect in Dominic Brown. Yeah, farm system depth is really overrated.

Yeah, I don't get why this seems to be so hard to explain. The farm system doesn't guarantee you success but damn does it make things easier. Downplaying it is like saying "I don't think it's important to have maximum resources." "I don't care what you managed to do in Vegas with $5000, I can have just as much fun there with $100 so it really makes no difference whether I have $100 or $5000 when I go"

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yeah, I don't get why this seems to be so hard to explain. The farm system doesn't guarantee you success but damn does it make things easier. Downplaying it is like saying "I don't think it's important to have maximum resources." "I don't care what you managed to do in Vegas with $5000, I can have just as much fun there with $100 so it really makes no difference whether I have $100 or $5000 when I go"

 

Excellent analogy. It's like some people really think those of us who want to see more effort put into the farm think we do so only because we want to see Baseball America fawn all over us. Like a few have said, I don't give a s*** about having a sexy AA or AAA team or having Baseball America rate us #1. Look no further then what the Phillies have been able to do. That's the franchise I want to emulate.

[lostfan]

BTW, just because someone is posting in this thread and going along with or against certain points doesn't necessarily mean they want Kenny and/or Ozzie fired, the assumption is kind of annoying. Personally, I like Kenny and want to keep him and don't really care if Ozzie stays or goes (I'd really support him staying honestly, but the fact that he is so married to out-wasting by doing s*** like sac bunts by good hitters with fast players on base, or that he doesn't appear to even look at basic splits when he decides lineups and matchups and mocks the idea really pisses me off).

[bigruss]

BTW, just because someone is posting in this thread and going along with or against certain points doesn't necessarily mean they want Kenny and/or Ozzie fired, the assumption is kind of annoying. Personally, I like Kenny and want to keep him and don't really care if Ozzie stays or goes (I'd really support him staying honestly, but the fact that he is so married to out-wasting by doing s*** like sac bunts by good hitters with fast players on base, or that he doesn't appear to even look at basic splits when he decides lineups and matchups and mocks the idea really pisses me off).

Fantastic post, thank you for really making it clear.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, I don't get why this seems to be so hard to explain. The farm system doesn't guarantee you success but damn does it make things easier. Downplaying it is like saying "I don't think it's important to have maximum resources." "I don't care what you managed to do in Vegas with $5000, I can have just as much fun there with $100 so it really makes no difference whether I have $100 or $5000 when I go"

 

I don't think anyone is saying that isn't true. What I have been saying all along is that people would throw a fit if the Sox made the sacrifices needed to move money away from the everyday team and into the farm. We have seen the threads for months about guys like Kotsay, Teahen, Linebrink and the like. Imagine if the players on the team were worse than them while we didn't spend the money that used to be there?

[southsider2k5]

Excellent analogy. It's like some people really think those of us who want to see more effort put into the farm think we do so only because we want to see Baseball America fawn all over us. Like a few have said, I don't give a s*** about having a sexy AA or AAA team or having Baseball America rate us #1. Look no further then what the Phillies have been able to do. That's the franchise I want to emulate.

 

I'd love to as well as they have a major metropolitian market all to themselves, plus have a payroll about $40 million a year higher than ours. That extra money makes it much easier to have it all.

[caulfield12]

The Phillies were so smart they gave up Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez, Thome and a huge chunk of $20+ million to us for what exactly in return?

 

The fact of the matter is that we're not as desperate for pitching as they are...because we have two starters with ERA's under 2 for the last 6 weeks, along with an established veteran workhorse in Mark Buehrle.

 

And if the Phillies would have been able to retain the services of Lee and Halladay at the same time, they wouldn't find themselves in the embarassing position of having to make a 3rd move just to stay competitive.

 

[Balta1701]

The Phillies were so smart they gave up Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez, Thome and a huge chunk of $20+ million to us for what exactly in return?

Aaron Rowand and the ability to play Ryan Howard at 1b without having to totally cut Thome and pay his entire salary. That first part of the 2 deals you combined worked out pretty well for them.

[bigruss]

I'd love to as well as they have a major metropolitian market all to themselves, plus have a payroll about $40 million a year higher than ours. That extra money makes it much easier to have it all.

That payroll is so high because they have had huge success lately and the fans are coming in waves to see them. In 2008, the Sox were spending over $20million more than them. They found the formula to win consistently so far and are reaping the rewards of being able to resign their best players and trade for top talent because of their farm system.

[bigruss]

I don't think anyone is saying that isn't true. What I have been saying all along is that people would throw a fit if the Sox made the sacrifices needed to move money away from the everyday team and into the farm. We have seen the threads for months about guys like Kotsay, Teahen, Linebrink and the like. Imagine if the players on the team were worse than them while we didn't spend the money that used to be there?

If the Sox went into this season with a $95 million payroll instead of the $99 mill (from Kalapse's spreadsheet), I dont think many would complain at all. Or if they redelegate $5 mill in next years payroll, we probably wouldnt even notice.

[southsider2k5]

If the Sox went into this season with a $95 million payroll instead of the $99 mill (from Kalapse's spreadsheet), I dont think many would complain at all. Or if they redelegate $5 mill in next years payroll, we probably wouldnt even notice.

People would have noticed when this team stayed at the bottom of the division because we didn't have money to sign JJ Putz, and instead had depended on Linebrink as the primary RH set up man.

[bigruss]

People would have noticed when this team stayed at the bottom of the division because we didn't have money to sign JJ Putz, and instead had depended on Linebrink as the primary RH set up man.

Thats why you dont sign Linebrink to that ridiculous contract in the first place. Its called being smarter with the resoruces given to you.

[caulfield12]

Thats why you dont sign Linebrink to that ridiculous contract in the first place. Its called being smarter with the resoruces given to you.

 

It's easy to say that now.

 

But the market for experienced set-up men coming into the 2008 season was a very different place.

 

Look at all the money that was spent on the Jamie Walkers, Jose Mesa's and Chad Bradford's of the world.

 

That was the market for Linebrink and Dotel AT THAT TIME. If we had a better farm system, will be the argument, we wouldn't have had to spend that money, yes? We certainly wouldn't have won the ALCD without Linebrink in 2008, you agree?

 

I'll just put it this way, which GM hasn't made at least three BIG mistakes in the last five years?

 

We keep saying how brilliant the Rangers are these days, but they traded away Danks, Chris Young (pitcher), Adrian Gonzalez...they've also dealt Armando Galarraga, Francisco Cordero and Edison Volquez, although Josh Hamilton is looking like the better part of that deal for now.

 

KW hasn't made nearly that many mistakes with the most precious resource in the game, young pitching. The only starters you can argue that "got away" are Clayton Richard and Gio Gonzalez, and I bet 90% of the board would say trade for Peavy was the right move at the time, at that price...since you're pointing out Halladay, Lee and Oswalt as examples, certainly you agree with the acquisition of Peavy, yes?

 

 

Edited July 29, 2010 by caulfield12

[bigruss]

It's easy to say that now.

 

But the market for experienced set-up men coming into the 2008 season was a very different place.

 

Look at all the money that was spent on the Jamie Walkers, Jose Mesa's and Chad Bradford's of the world.

 

That was the market for Linebrink and Dotel AT THAT TIME. If we had a better farm system, will be the argument, we wouldn't have had to spend that money, yes? We certainly wouldn't have won the ALCD without Linebrink in 2008, you agree?

 

I'll just put it this way, which GM hasn't made at least three BIG mistakes in the last five years?

 

We keep saying how brilliant the Rangers are these days, but they traded away Danks, Chris Young (pitcher), Adrian Gonzalez...they've also dealt Armando Galarraga, Francisco Cordero and Edison Volquez, although Josh Hamilton is looking like the better part of that deal for now.

 

KW hasn't made nearly that many mistakes with the most precious resource in the game, young pitching. The only starters you can argue that "got away" are Clayton Richard and Gio Gonzalez, and I bet 90% of the board would say trade for Peavy was the right move at the time, at that price...since you're pointing out Halladay, Lee and Oswalt as examples, certainly you agree with the acquisition of Peavy, yes?

Its one thing to make a mistake on talent evaluation compared to a ridiculous contract. You just dont give 4 yr long contracts to middle relievers/set up men.

 

And you cant compare Linebrink to Peavy acquisition wise, since the value of top young starters is completely different to old set up men. I loved the Peavey trade because we didnt give up much in terms of talent (Richards is decent, but in the AL he tops out at a 3, and is most likely a 4, Petco makes him look good though, and Carter was pitching well and had a big arm but was still in A ball). In return, we got a Cy Young caliber pitcher who was overpriced but still one of the best pitchers that was attainable. Id rather have him than Oswalt.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'd love to as well as they have a major metropolitian market all to themselves, plus have a payroll about $40 million a year higher than ours. That extra money makes it much easier to have it all.

 

You don't think making the playoffs three straight years, including the last two World Series and one title have anything to do with the spike in their payroll? You do know we had a higher payroll in 2008 than they did, right? The Phillies are legit and built to last.

 

Edit: I see bigruss beat me to it. Point remains the same.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Jordan4life

[corcino26]

1st time poster here!

 

Couple of questions to this topic:

 

1. Who do you think will do a better job?

2. How will you get them here?

 

I honestly think Ozzie and Kenny are one of the best GM/Field Manager combos in baseball today. If you got rid of them who do you honestly think would come in here and do a BETTER job? As Sox fans, we would kill to have a GM like KW if he were elsewhere, but since he's here, it's ok to trash the guy. Sure he's made some bad deals in the past, but name me a GM who hasn't. I can honestly say that every year, Kenny ALWAYS will try to get something done to make our club better. Keep in mind we don't have the Yankees, Red Sox, or even the Cubs payroll. Just imagine if he did! Without KW, we wouldn't have the starting staff we have, nor this bullpen. Think about all the crappy prospects we gave up to get what we have now! He's cleary one of the Top 5 in all of baseball.

 

As for Ozzie. Sure he has his moments, but he's honest with his players and he'll give them every opportunity to succeed. He also protects his players when everyone else is after their heads. Yes he makes his mistakes as well, but I think overall he has a great feel for this staff. He told us that Alexi could be one of the better shortstops in the game and you know what, he was right! I wanted Beckham back at short, but this is why he's a winning manager and i'm just a Sox fan posting silly comments. Don't forget, he got us something we hadn't had in 88 years... A world series ring!

 

At the end of the day.. sure they both can become such drama queens, but I honestly think they deserve tons of credit for trying to put a competitve team together year in and year out. We just don't have the mega-payroll like other big market teams. I hope they stay a long while!

[gatnom]

1. Who do you think will do a better job?

2. How will you get them here?

 

I honestly think Ozzie and Kenny are one of the best GM/Field Manager combos in baseball today. If you got rid of them who do you honestly think would come in here and do a BETTER job? As Sox fans, we would kill to have a GM like KW if he were elsewhere, but since he's here, it's ok to trash the guy. Sure he's made some bad deals in the past, but name me a GM who hasn't. I can honestly say that every year, Kenny ALWAYS will try to get something done to make our club better. Keep in mind we don't have the Yankees, Red Sox, or even the Cubs payroll. Just imagine if he did! Without KW, we wouldn't have the starting staff we have, nor this bullpen. Think about all the crappy prospects we gave up to get what we have now! He's cleary one of the Top 5 in all of baseball.

 

As for Ozzie. Sure he has his moments, but he's honest with his players and he'll give them every opportunity to succeed. He also protects his players when everyone else is after their heads. Yes he makes his mistakes as well, but I think overall he has a great feel for this staff. He told us that Alexi could be one of the better shortstops in the game and you know what, he was right! I wanted Beckham back at short, but this is why he's a winning manager and i'm just a Sox fan posting silly comments. Don't forget, he got us something we hadn't had in 88 years... A world series ring!

 

At the end of the day.. sure they both can become such drama queens, but I honestly think they deserve tons of credit for trying to put a competitve team together year in and year out. We just don't have the mega-payroll like other big market teams. I hope they stay a long while!

 

I don't specifically know who would do a better job than Kenny, and I do feel like he is one of the better GMs in the game. However, it feels to me like a lot of people choose to ignore all of his shortcomings and mistakes he's made over the years. I don't expect perfection or anything, but he has neglected the farm system so much he hardly has any pieces to even acquire something to improve his team, let alone being able to replace those pieces on next year's team. And, let's not forget that had he not completely botched a huge no-brainer to resign Thome, he could be looking into improving in his 4/5th starter instead of trying to pick up a bat. That being said, I would still like KW to be our GM. You can't ignore the things he doesn't do well and say that we are better off not trying to fix our flaws.

 

As for Ozzie, I want him gone. He can't be counted on to make good calls, and that's pretty much all you can say about it.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Here's one thing I don't get.

 

If I were the White Sox, I would go after Terry Ryan or Jim Rantz of the Twins, and basically give them a blank check to run the scouting department.

 

As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...but is KW's ego too big to admit to himself this weakness?

 

It's not as if the Twins have unearthed lots of Dominican, Venezuelan or Asian players or outbid many on the international open market. In fact, they've PROBABLY done a worse job than the White Sox in this area, Christian Guzman is the lone player that comes to mind in the past decade, along with David Ortiz (you can also look at them letting him go as a failure of sorts developmentally, since they undoubtedly would have won at least one or two World Series titles with him batting like he did in Boston, but they could never get that kind of performance out of him, for whatever reason).

 

I will give them credit for holding onto Young so long, but they've reportedly tried to deal him the last two offseasons and couldn't find any takers that would give up what they felt he was worth...so perhaps they were a bit lucky here.

Edited July 30, 2010 by caulfield12

[greg775]

As for Ozzie, I want him gone. He can't be counted on to make good calls, and that's pretty much all you can say about it.

 

An Ozzie lover would counter by saying 11 in a row at home, baby!

World Series champion in a city that doesn't win World Serieses, baby!

Funniest gawddamn quote in the game today, baby!

Here's a vote to extend, yes extend, the contract of Mr. Ozzie Guillen ... NOW!

 

From tonight's Associated Press if you want a smile to be put on your face regarding Oz and the Team

 

"Since June 9, the AL Central-leading White Sox are 33-11 overall and 18-1 at home. Before the surge, they were 24-33 and 9 1/2 games behind Minnesota. They are now 57-44 and 1 1/2 games in front.

“It feels like that was another season ago,” Konerko, the White Sox captain, said of the spring struggles. “It’s remarkable. I’ve never been on a team that’s turned things around so quickly, where we went from doing pretty much everything bad to everything good.

Carlos Quentin also homered for the White Sox, whose previous home winning streak of at least 11 games came in 1989 — two years before they left old Comiskey Park for U.S. Cellular Field.

“We can’t say, ’Hey, we’re going to run the table.’ We know we’ll lose some more games at home,” Konerko said. “There are no guarantees, but we’re having fun with it.”

 

Also ... NOTES: The White Sox have seven series sweeps, their most in a season since they took 12 in 2005, when they went on to win the World Series. ...

Edited July 30, 2010 by greg775

[NorthSideSox72]

1st time poster here!

 

Couple of questions to this topic:

 

1. Who do you think will do a better job?

2. How will you get them here?

 

I honestly think Ozzie and Kenny are one of the best GM/Field Manager combos in baseball today. If you got rid of them who do you honestly think would come in here and do a BETTER job? As Sox fans, we would kill to have a GM like KW if he were elsewhere, but since he's here, it's ok to trash the guy. Sure he's made some bad deals in the past, but name me a GM who hasn't. I can honestly say that every year, Kenny ALWAYS will try to get something done to make our club better. Keep in mind we don't have the Yankees, Red Sox, or even the Cubs payroll. Just imagine if he did! Without KW, we wouldn't have the starting staff we have, nor this bullpen. Think about all the crappy prospects we gave up to get what we have now! He's cleary one of the Top 5 in all of baseball.

 

As for Ozzie. Sure he has his moments, but he's honest with his players and he'll give them every opportunity to succeed. He also protects his players when everyone else is after their heads. Yes he makes his mistakes as well, but I think overall he has a great feel for this staff. He told us that Alexi could be one of the better shortstops in the game and you know what, he was right! I wanted Beckham back at short, but this is why he's a winning manager and i'm just a Sox fan posting silly comments. Don't forget, he got us something we hadn't had in 88 years... A world series ring!

 

At the end of the day.. sure they both can become such drama queens, but I honestly think they deserve tons of credit for trying to put a competitve team together year in and year out. We just don't have the mega-payroll like other big market teams. I hope they stay a long while!

Welcome to the board!