I want Ozzie and KW gone.

[bigruss]

Your company must be a good one. The companies I've examined in this depression (it's more than a recession) are really treating workers like s*** and implementing pay freezes or cuts for the second straight year.

 

I can't believe a majority of you do not think this thread is kind of embarrassing with the Sox having won 10 in a row at home and still hanging onto first place by a thread. We're in the pennant race entering August again.

My company was hit hard by the recession, were 100% relying upon sales to companies that got hit hard. Still, the company has been trying to improve not just sales, but other areas as well. We try to be mroe efficient, add mroe value, etc.

 

One thing I ahve seen in the company is that they havent taken the best approaches to investments as they should have. I see that they shouldve done mroe research and analytics before investing in certain areas (whether that be international expansion or just IT projects0, but the company itself is improving. Does that mean we should forget those very easy to improve areas? No, it would benefit the company widely to get better in those areas at the same time.

[whitesoxfan101]

I think if you look around the league they are a fairly successful combination as well. Outside of the Yankees and Boston has there been another combo with more wins or titles?

 

Well see this is where the argument gets interesting. To me, the Twins have been a more succesful team than us in KW's time since they've won the division five times and we've won it twice (no wild cards for either side, only AL Central wild card in that time was Detroit in '06). Obviously we've got the trump card of the World Series in '05, but I'm not sure the fact that we found the right playoff combination in '05 (which I think doing is more luck than skill, considering it's teams that got there being great for 162 trying to be better in a best of 5 or 7) overcomes the Twins resume overall, even though it is a trump card.

Edited July 28, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[bigruss]

I think if you look around the league they are a fairly successful combination as well. Outside of the Yankees and Boston has there been another combo with more wins or titles?

Depending on how you look at wins and titles, the Marlins have been successful, Angels have been good, Phillies have been excellent.

 

The Phillies are a great example. They spend alot at the MLB level, but not Boston/NY territory and they invest alot in the draft. Guess what, when they want to trade for Cliff Lee and/or Halladay they can do it, and they have homegrown players like Victorino making a huge difference and they still have MiLB depth to make a trade if they want to. They arent perfect, but they have a damn fine franchise.

[Balta1701]

Well see this is where the argument gets interesting. To me, the Twins have been a more succesful team than us in KW's time since they've won the division five times and we've won it twice (no wild cards for either side, only AL Central wild card in that time was Detroit in '06). Obviously we've got the trump card of the World Series in '05, but I'm not sure the fact that we found the right playoff combination in '05 (which I think doing is more luck than skill, considering it's teams that got there being great for 162 trying to be better in a best of 5 or 7) overcomes the Twins resume overall, even though it is a trump card.

One thing worth considering though...even though KW came up through the org, for the first year/couple years after he took over, he was dealing with the hand he was dealt.

 

That said, I don't see how you can argue that there has been a better run organization than the Twins over the past decade, in terms of doing more with limited and scarce financial resources. There's a reason we keep saying we want to play more like them.

[ptatc]

Well see this is where the argument gets interesting. To me, the Twins have been a more succesful team than us in KW's time since they've won the division five times and we've won it twice (no wild cards for either side, only AL Central wild card in that time was Detroit in '06). Obviously we've got the trump card of the World Series in '05, but I'm not sure the fact that we found the right playoff combination in '05 (which I think doing is more luck than skill, considering it's teams that got there being great for 162 trying to be better in a best of 5 or 7) overcomes the Twins resume overall, even though it is a trump card.

 

The is a valid way to look at it. Either way the two franchises are close. I still think they are in the in the upper echelon as far as management goes.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

One thing worth considering though...even though KW came up through the org, for the first year/couple years after he took over, he was dealing with the hand he was dealt.

 

That said, I don't see how you can argue that there has been a better run organization than the Twins over the past decade, in terms of doing more with limited and scarce financial resources. There's a reason we keep saying we want to play more like them.

 

Exactly. I don't care where we stack up in relationship to the rest of baseball, I care where we stack up in relationship to the Twins. Because that's our competition every year just to make the playoffs in the first place.

Edited July 28, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[ptatc]

Depending on how you look at wins and titles, the Marlins have been successful, Angels have been good, Phillies have been excellent.

 

The Phillies are a great example. They spend alot at the MLB level, but not Boston/NY territory and they invest alot in the draft. Guess what, when they want to trade for Cliff Lee and/or Halladay they can do it, and they have homegrown players like Victorino making a huge difference and they still have MiLB depth to make a trade if they want to. They arent perfect, but they have a damn fine franchise.

 

The Marlins have been ok the last 10 years but not at the Sox level, they've had too many ups and downs. The Phillies have been coming on strong the last few years but weren't very good and probably awful before that.

 

I still think the management combo we have is among the best certainly in the top 5.

[Balta1701]

The Marlins have been ok the last 10 years but not at the Sox level, they've had too many ups and downs. The Phillies have been coming on strong the last few years but weren't very good and probably awful before that.

 

I still think the management combo we have is among the best certainly in the top 5.

The phillies, let's also note...are spending more money than the Sox the last couple years. Their total payroll right now is upwards of $140 million.

[ptatc]

Exactly. I don't care where we stack up in relationship to the rest of baseball, I care where we stack up in relationship to the Twins. Because that's our competition every year.

 

I still would let them have more division tiles without a World Series title. If we are close to them every year but have more World Series trophies, I'll live with that. The ultimate goal is the World Series and as long as we are in the hunt and win a few division titles in the meantime, it works for me.

 

I'm not sure I could handle a run like the Braves had in the 90's (before which they are awful for a decade) where they won the division title every year but couldn't win the World Series. It's just a personal preference but I'll take the title.

Edited July 28, 2010 by ptatc

[The Ginger Kid]

But the twins are very reluctant to deal their prospects for impact players at the deadline. I remember Morneau expressing his frustration and I'm sure there are a lot of players on that team who wish they would've made moves before the deadline that could've turned some of those division winning years into WS seasons.

 

Personally, I don't want the Twins system. I respect it, but I'd rather have the "go for it" attitude of Kenny than that conservative approach.

[whitesoxfan101]

I still would let them have more division tiles without a World Series title. If we are close to them every year but have more World Series trophies, I'll live with that. The ultimate goal is the World Series and as long as we are in the hunt and win a few division titles in the meantime, it works for me.

 

Oh I'd rather have 2 divisions and a World Series than 5 divisions and that's it, no doubt about it. I just think their consistency of being in the playoffs is a sign that overall, they are run better. I think being the best for 162 consistently is more a sign of skill, where as being the best for it and then winning a World Series (particularly when you are like the White Sox, who aren't in the playoffs all that frequently) is a mix of skill and luck.

Edited July 28, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[bigruss]

The Marlins have been ok the last 10 years but not at the Sox level, they've had too many ups and downs. The Phillies have been coming on strong the last few years but weren't very good and probably awful before that.

 

I still think the management combo we have is among the best certainly in the top 5.

Oh cmon, the Phillies have been a better franchise, they are identical in playoff appearances, they have made the WS twice, and they have a much better farm system and it can be argued that they have a better MLB roster.

[bigruss]

I still would let them have more division tiles without a World Series title. If we are close to them every year but have more World Series trophies, I'll live with that. The ultimate goal is the World Series and as long as we are in the hunt and win a few division titles in the meantime, it works for me.

 

I'm not sure I could handle a run like the Braves had in the 90's (before which they are awful for a decade) where they won the division title every year but couldn't win the World Series. It's just a personal preference but I'll take the title.

Getting to the WS is almost as much luck as it is skill. Its the hottest team at the time. Getting to the playoffs requires much more skill than luck, thats why they play 162 regular season games.

[bigruss]

But the twins are very reluctant to deal their prospects for impact players at the deadline. I remember Morneau expressing his frustration and I'm sure there are a lot of players on that team who wish they would've made moves before the deadline that could've turned some of those division winning years into WS seasons.

 

Personally, I don't want the Twins system. I respect it, but I'd rather have the "go for it" attitude of Kenny than that conservative approach.

I havent seen anyone specifically state that they want to be like the Twins, not in this thread atleast (maybe I did miss that). I would love to emulate how they scout, draft, and develop, and combine that with KW's aggressiveness. Is there really a problem with wanting that?

[southsider2k5]

I think alot of the issue is that many people here have really only known the Sox management with Ozzie and KW. Right or wrong this is their point of view. They haven't lived through other GM's or managers, so it's only natural to do the grass is greener scenario. Many of the same posters have been tearing other GM's apart for recent trades. Most new GM's are unknown quantities and you aren't sure what you will get. It will be interesting on what the opinions will be once KW and Ozzie are gone. Having lived through Sox GM's and mangers since the 70's, I'm only too happy to see KW and Ozzie here. I can't think of a better GM or manager the Sox have had in 35 years.

 

Being born in 1973 into a Sox family, I agree 100%.

[bigruss]

Being born in 1973 into a Sox family, I agree 100%.

Well, for us young whippersnappers I am sorry for wanting more out of the franchise that I grew up with. Im sorry that I cant blindly see and allow a blatant hole in the franchise and just say "Im okay with it." Im sorry taht I see this franchise in a great opportunity to be a top 7 or 8 team year in and year out with the resources given to it and that it is struggling to be there year in and year out. I know not every season is going to go your way, but we should be top 2 in the central every single year with the resources we have.

[whitesoxfan101]

Being born in 1973 into a Sox family, I agree 100%.

 

The quote on your very own signature shows that the standard has been raised due to 2005, not only by the fans but by the people in the organization. Pretty good with occasional divisional titles and obviously the one trump card of 2005 is not bad by any means, but the expectations here are high now. And I think KW and Oz would be the first people to admit that.

[Balta1701]

Oh cmon, the Phillies have been a better franchise, they are identical in playoff appearances, they have made the WS twice, and they have a much better farm system and it can be argued that they have a better MLB roster.

You're comparing the Phillies and the Marlins and not noting that 1 team has a payroll of $140 million while the other has a payroll of $57 million (up from $14 million as recently as 2006)?

 

That's as fair as comparing the Yankees and White Sox and saying that the Yankees are clearly the better franchise because they've won a world series this decade and have a lot more division titles and postseason appearances.

[southsider2k5]

Well, for us young whippersnappers I am sorry for wanting more out of the franchise that I grew up with. Im sorry that I cant blindly see and allow a blatant hole in the franchise and just say "Im okay with it." Im sorry taht I see this franchise in a great opportunity to be a top 7 or 8 team year in and year out with the resources given to it and that it is struggling to be there year in and year out. I know not every season is going to go your way, but we should be top 2 in the central every single year with the resources we have.

 

Applying a ridiculous standard of never having any down years isn't any better. You realize according to your own standards, no team in any division of baseball would be good enough, because exactly zero have been in the top two in their division every single year in the last 5 years even.

[ptatc]

Oh cmon, the Phillies have been a better franchise, they are identical in playoff appearances, they have made the WS twice, and they have a much better farm system and it can be argued that they have a better MLB roster.

 

i really don't care who has the better minor league system the only thing that matters is winning at the major league level. One could translate to the other but winning is all that matters. The World Series wins puts them up there of course but again if you look at how awful they were before hand their system was bound to be good with all those years of higher picks.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

Applying a ridiculous standard of never having any down years isn't any better. You realize according to your own standards, no team in any division of baseball would be good enough, because exactly zero have been in the top two in their division every single year in the last 5 years even.

 

I don't see how it's ridiculous. The Twins have won 5 of the last 8 AL Central Titles, largely with a payroll below ours.

[bigruss]

i really don't care who has the better minor league system the only thing that matters is winning at the major league level. One could translate to the other but winning is all that matters. The World Series wins puts them up there of course but again if you look at how awful they were before hand their system was bound to be good with all those years of higher picks.

How do people not get this???? The better farm system you have, the more value you can add to your MLB roster!! It is why we cant acquire Fielder, or why we dont have Miguel f***ing Cabrera on our team now. That is a MAJOR impact on your MLB roster.

 

The Phillies continue to draft well because they actually invest in the draft, how do you think the Red Sox do it?

[southsider2k5]

I don't see how it's ridiculous. The Twins have won 5 of the last 8 AL Central Titles, largely with a payroll below ours.

 

Because zero teams in major league baseball have done it for the last five years even?

[bigruss]

Applying a ridiculous standard of never having any down years isn't any better. You realize according to your own standards, no team in any division of baseball would be good enough, because exactly zero have been in the top two in their division every single year in the last 5 years even.

If we were in the AL East I would say its ridiculous, but no, were in the Central against a well run organization in the Twins, two s***s orgs in the Royals and Indians, and a pretty good franchise in the Tigers. With the resources we have we should be at the top 2 every year, with an occasional outlier for injuries and such (thats baseball). But our talent should be as high if not higher than anyone else in the league. If not, thats a major screwup with the resources by the GM.

[lostfan]

i really don't care who has the better minor league system the only thing that matters is winning at the major league level. One could translate to the other but winning is all that matters. The World Series wins puts them up there of course but again if you look at how awful they were before hand their system was bound to be good with all those years of higher picks.

Having a non-s***ty farm system (with talent constantly coming in due to good scouting, drafting strategy, and player development) makes it MUCH easier to compete at the major league level.