I want Ozzie and KW gone.

[ptatc]

Well, for us young whippersnappers I am sorry for wanting more out of the franchise that I grew up with. Im sorry that I cant blindly see and allow a blatant hole in the franchise and just say "Im okay with it." Im sorry taht I see this franchise in a great opportunity to be a top 7 or 8 team year in and year out with the resources given to it and that it is struggling to be there year in and year out. I know not every season is going to go your way, but we should be top 2 in the central every single year with the resources we have.

 

I don't think your over exaggeration is the point. The point is that the management combo is doing a very good job with what they have and they have been one of the best in baseball. The call for their firings is a little over the top giving thier relative success.

 

[bigruss]

You're comparing the Phillies and the Marlins and not noting that 1 team has a payroll of $140 million while the other has a payroll of $57 million (up from $14 million as recently as 2006)?

 

That's as fair as comparing the Yankees and White Sox and saying that the Yankees are clearly the better franchise because they've won a world series this decade and have a lot more division titles and postseason appearances.

Which proves my point in how much a good f***ing farm system can do for you. You can use it to grow star players, or trade for some stud MLB players.

[whitesoxfan101]

Because zero teams in major league baseball have done it for the last five years even?

 

The standard is making the playoffs in baseball. Once you get there, it's largely a crap shoot because you're taking teams built to be the best in their division for 162 games and seeing who is better for 3 of 5 or 4 of 7. In that sense, the Twins have been vastly superior to us in KW's time. Even the Indians have as many division titles (although I'd obviously put us well above them due to '05 and overall record). Winning the World Series is the ultimate goal, but the idea is to make the playoffs as often as possible and take your chances after that since it's largely luck once you get there, and the Twins do a much better job of that than us. And the fact that we found the perfect storm in '05 doesn't change that.

[bigruss]

I don't think your over exaggeration is the point. The point is that the management combo is doing a very good job with what they have and they have been one of the best in baseball. The call for their firings is a little over the top giving thier relative success.

IM NOT CALLING FOR FIRINGS!! Ive never said that!!!!! Im calling for improvement, change in parts of the organization that have sucked for years!

[ptatc]

If we were in the AL East I would say its ridiculous, but no, were in the Central against a well run organization in the Twins, two s***s orgs in the Royals and Indians, and a pretty good franchise in the Tigers. With the resources we have we should be at the top 2 every year, with an occasional outlier for injuries and such (thats baseball). But our talent should be as high if not higher than anyone else in the league. If not, thats a major screwup with the resources by the GM.

 

 

Has anyone in any division been in the top two every year for the past five years? I'm not sure that is realistic given the incidence of injury in this sport.

[bigruss]

Has anyone in any division been in the top two every year for the past five years? I'm not sure that is realistic given the incidence of injury in this sport.

I just said that an occasional outlier due to injury is acceptable, but a team with our resources in our division should have top 2 talent year in and year out.

[ptatc]

IM NOT CALLING FOR FIRINGS!! Ive never said that!!!!! Im calling for improvement, change in parts of the organization that have sucked for years!

 

I thought the discussion started with how well (or not) KW and Ozzie were doing. The only way to improve in this area would be to change one of them.

 

My apologies if this wasn't the discussion you were having.

 

[southsider2k5]

If we were in the AL East I would say its ridiculous, but no, were in the Central against a well run organization in the Twins, two s***s orgs in the Royals and Indians, and a pretty good franchise in the Tigers. With the resources we have we should be at the top 2 every year, with an occasional outlier for injuries and such (thats baseball). But our talent should be as high if not higher than anyone else in the league. If not, thats a major screwup with the resources by the GM.

 

The Tigers have had higher payrolls than ours since 2008, and they haven't done anything since 2006.

[ptatc]

I just said that an occasional outlier due to injury is acceptable, but a team with our resources in our division should have top 2 talent year in and year out.

 

 

Again talent is a relative term. I think the record is the most important. I think there were a few years where the Sox were more talented than the Twins and they won the division. The talent is one thing, winning is another and they don't always correlate.

 

[bigruss]

I thought the discussion started with how well (or not) KW and Ozzie were doing. The only way to improve in this area would be to change one of them.

 

My apologies if this wasn't the discussion you were having.

People jumped to conclusions because of the thread title, and there were some legit concerns stating if the team fell out due to not having a big bat because Ozzie wanted flexibility and KW didnt make a move because he let Ozzie control him, but no, for the most part this thread has been about the Sox improving overall.

 

Some posters have continually not understood that since the beginning of the thread because they got caught up with the title too much and not the content.

 

And sorry if I pissed anyone off, it became very frustrating having to retype what I was saying every other page because people werent actually reading it.

[whitesoxfan101]

The Tigers have had higher payrolls than ours since 2008, and they haven't done anything since 2006.

 

They aren't particularly well run. I'd certainly say we're better run than they are.

[bigruss]

Again talent is a relative term. I think the record is the most important. I think there were a few years where the Sox were more talented than the Twins and they won the division. The talent is one thing, winning is another and they don't always correlate.

How do you build a team though? You cant build a team around luck, you build it around talent. You want the best team in the league, it doesnt always end up that the most talented wins teh division, but it gives you a damn good chance. And lets say if Konerko went down this year, but we had a stellar farm system, and we were right in it in terms of competing still. We could use that system to replace Konerko. It gives you so much flexibility and opportunities to have a stellar farm system, and yet it doesnt even cost a crippling amount. An extra 3-5 million a year in the draft would do wonders for us.

[bigruss]

They aren't particularly well run. I'd certainly say we're better run than they are.

Theyve got money, a new ballpark, and great attendance. They invest well in the draft and are able to go out and get impact players (Cabrera) to help their team. They need to work on the contracts given to their own players, like Bonderman, Inge, Robertson (when he was there, even now theyre paying him 9.5 mill to play for another team.). They have plenty of areas to work on too, but they do alot right, if they were in first would people still not be complaining about some of the contracts they give out?

[whitesoxfan101]

Theyve got money, a new ballpark, and great attendance. They invest well in the draft and are able to go out and get impact players (Cabrera) to help their team.

 

But all they have is a whopping one wild card playoff berth in the last 22 years. And even that year, they blew it in the World Series to a team that won 83 games.

Edited July 28, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[bigruss]

But all they have is a whopping one wild card playoff berth in the last 22 years. And even that year, they blew it in the World Series to a team that won 83 games.

For a team recovering from having one of the worst runs ever in baseball, thats not that bad. They have alot to go still though.

[ptatc]

People jumped to conclusions because of the thread title, and there were some legit concerns stating if the team fell out due to not having a big bat because Ozzie wanted flexibility and KW didnt make a move because he let Ozzie control him, but no, for the most part this thread has been about the Sox improving overall.

 

Some posters have continually not understood that since the beginning of the thread because they got caught up with the title too much and not the content.

 

And sorry if I pissed anyone off, it became very frustrating having to retype what I was saying every other page because people werent actually reading it.

 

It's the same point. The Sox are one of the best run frachises in baseball and their teams have performed well since they took over.

[ptatc]

How do you build a team though? You cant build a team around luck, you build it around talent. You want the best team in the league, it doesnt always end up that the most talented wins teh division, but it gives you a damn good chance. And lets say if Konerko went down this year, but we had a stellar farm system, and we were right in it in terms of competing still. We could use that system to replace Konerko. It gives you so much flexibility and opportunities to have a stellar farm system, and yet it doesnt even cost a crippling amount. An extra 3-5 million a year in the draft would do wonders for us.

 

 

All of the points are valid but the most talented team has a chance to win but usually it's how the team performs the best.

 

I hate to use the quote but it's the organization that wins not the individual player. If the parts fit together well they have a good chance to beat the more talented team. That's why the GM and manager are often as important as the players. The players are people their performance may depend on how they are handled by the manager and to a lesser extent GM over a long and grinding season.

 

You can't judge a franchise just on the talent in the system or MLB level. It needs to be judged by performance. Did they win or not.

[bigruss]

All of the points are valid but the most talented team has a chance to win but usually it's how the team performs the best.

 

I hate to use the quote but it's the organization that wins not the individual player. If the parts fit together well they have a good chance to beat the more talented team. That's why the GM and manager are often as important as the players. The players are people their performance may depend on how they are handled by the manager and to a lesser extent GM over a long and grinding season.

 

You can't judge a franchise just on the talent in the system or MLB level. It needs to be judged by performance. Did they win or not.

There is a balance between talent, luck, and management of the team. I just believe that an abundance of talent will help the downfalls of being unlucky or not having the greatest manager more than luck or a great manager has on a bad team. Ill leave it at that.

[ptatc]

There is a balance between talent, luck, and management of the team. I just believe that an abundance of talent will help the downfalls of being unlucky or not having the greatest manager more than luck or a great manager has on a bad team. Ill leave it at that.

 

Everything you said is true. The abundance of talent is the easiest to control of the group there is no denying that.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Which proves my point in how much a good f***ing farm system can do for you. You can use it to grow star players, or trade for some stud MLB players.

 

Or to alleviate injuries throughout the year. Shane Victorino, an all-star last year, goes on the DL. What do the Phillies do? Call up a consensus top 10 prospect, 5 tool talent in Dominic Brown to step in. I'd hate to see what our alternative would be say Rios were to go down. That's a terrifying thought.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Jordan4life

[bigruss]

Or to alleviate injuries throughout the year. Shane Victorino, an all-star last year, goes on the DL. What do the Phillies do? Call up a consensus top 10 prospect, 5 tool talent in Dominic Brown to step in. I'd hate to see what are alternative would be say Rios were to go down. That's a terrifying thought.

Exactly, if any of our big time position players goes down we'll be in trouble.

[Balta1701]

Exactly, if any of our big time position players goes down we'll be in trouble.

How well would the Phils have survived their #1 starter going down?

[Jordan4life_2007]

How well would the Phils have survived their #1 starter going down?

 

C'mon, Balta. No team would be able to cover everybody. But think about it. If any of our top guys went down, whether it be Rios, PK, Ramirez, s***, even Juan f***ing Pierre, what would the alternatives be? It'd be 2007 all over again.

[Balta1701]

C'mon, Balta. No team would be able to cover everybody. But think about it. If any of our top guys went down, whether it be Rios, PK, Ramirez, s***, even Juan f***ing Pierre, what would the alternatives be? It'd be 2007 all over again.

Point is...our #1 guy, the single most expensive player on our roster, has in fact gone down.

 

We can't be in that bad of shape if we can survive that.

[bigruss]

C'mon, Balta. No team would be able to cover everybody. But think about it. If any of our top guys went down, whether it be Rios, PK, Ramirez, s***, even Juan f***ing Pierre, what would the alternatives be? It'd be 2007 all over again.

Actually, the Phils still have the pieces to go after Lee or Oswalt if they want/wanted to, which is amazing.