I want Ozzie and KW gone.

[greg775]

I don't want to swing the conversation over to the Flubs, but wouldn't it be the same topic? Only their team has no WS title and hasn't been as consistent a contender as we have been (I guess for a few years they were right there, though).

 

Piniella? Highly respected when he was hired and now despised by Flub fans.

GM? Looked like he once made some great acquisitions. Now all you hear is all the bad contracts they have.

 

Again, forgive me for going to the North Side on this, but it hit me that our situation is better than theirs (not that that matters except it was in my strain of consciousness and I had to get it out; forgive me pls).

[Jordan4life_2007]

I don't want to swing the conversation over to the Flubs, but wouldn't it be the same topic? Only their team has no WS title and hasn't been as consistent a contender as we have been (I guess for a few years they were right there, though).

 

Piniella? Highly respected when he was hired and now despised by Flub fans.

GM? Looked like he once made some great acquisitions. Now all you hear is all the bad contracts they have.

 

Again, forgive me for going to the North Side on this, but it hit me that our situation is better than theirs (not that that matters except it was in my strain of consciousness and I had to get it out; forgive me pls).

 

In Castro, Colvin and Cashner, they've got a nice little core. They're in much better shape in the young talent department than they were a couple years ago.

[iamshack]

The Rays, Rangers, Reds and Rockies (two playoff births in the last three years) are not in first place or near it because of FA signings. The Dodgers have produced Kershaw/Billingsley/Broxton/Kemp/Ethier/Loney/Martin. Not sure where you're coming from there. I agree about the Angels.

The Rays have picked 1st or close to 1st for the better part of a decade. Throw them out of the equation.

 

The Rangers/Reds/Rockies have what to show for all their magnificent development of players? What have they done that we have not?

 

The Dodgers did not develop Ethier. They received him in trade for Milton Bradley. While they did develop those other guys, they also have had numerous other guys that have not panned out and they have lost out on because of opportunity costs. Kershaw is outstanding, I wanted us to draft him, unfortunately he went 7th overall. We picked 29th that year. Billingsly has been a nice pitcher. So we traded Brandon McCarthy for John Danks. What's the difference? Jonothan Broxton. We claimed Bobby Jenks off waivers. Very similar players. James Loney is a very nice hitter but has no power and is basically Mark Grace squared instead of the amazing player he was once supposed to be. Again, opportunity costs...it's taken them 4-5 years to figure this out. Martin is a nice little catcher, but shockingly has regressed badly since the steroid era. Hmm.

 

I mean having your own players is nice and all, but it's costing them in other ways that it is not costing us. You can't ignore that.

[iamshack]

In Castro, Colvin and Cashner, they've got a nice little core. They're in much better shape in the young talent department than they were a couple years ago.

But 5 years before that they had one of the best rated systems in baseball. And look at how many great players they produced.

[Jordan4life_2007]

And how long have we been hearing about the farm system drying up? Every year it's the apocalypse is coming! There will be no talent left to trade! And then, a few guys come along and we suddenly have a few more pieces to trade.

 

I want to have been talent to develop as much as the next guy. And I hope that we do devote more resources to doing so. But this fantastical idea that these other organizations have farm systems that have been producing all-star caliber players one year after another is pure fiction. The rates of attrition are so great that even systems that look loaded and are rated as so usually don't end up producing huge quantities of above-average major league talent.

 

All you have to do is go back and peruse Baseball America over the past 10 years and the systems that were rated highly and try to find all these outstanding MLB all stars that came from those systems. You'll find them to be full of names of guys that you've either never heard of, or that you haven't heard of in a long, long time (like Obi Wan Kenobi).

 

And for every player we don't seem to be able to develop ourselves, we do find them in other ways, whether they are young guys that are a bit down on their luck in other organizations, or guys that are coming off injuries or a down year with something to prove.

 

I'm certainly not arguing that a farm system isn't important, but there are a s***load of costs associated with trying to develop your own talent.

 

Look at what we have gone through with Beckham this year. Now imagine that times 2 or 3 every year with these kids. Sometimes, it's much easier, and much less expensive, to go with the veteran talent over the young kids just because of the opportunity costs involved.

 

Other than Peavy, and that was more of a case of them wanting to dump salary, you have to go back to 2004 the last time the Sox added a legitimate talent at the deadline. Like fathom said, if this is the way we're going to operate year after year, we have to have better talent.

 

[mr_genius]

Since Ozzie took over as manager in 04 we have 2 division titles, a World Series Championship, and are currently leading the division as we speak..

 

2004: 83-79 - 2nd

2005: 99-63 - Division Champs, World Series Champs

2006: 90-72 - 3rd

2007: 72-90 - 4th

2008: 89-74 - Division Champs

2009: 79-83 - 3rd

2010: 53-44 - Leading Division

 

No one likes Kotsay being a major contributor to this team, but lets just say we win the division this season.. that's 3 division titles and a world series title in 7 seasons..

 

That also puts Ozzie at 565-505 career record with the Sox.. 12-4 in the postseason.. They don't need to be fired, but a collective agreement between them of the RIGHT moves to make would prolly help out a lot.. KW needs to just man up and do what he thinks is best for the club instead of submitting to Ozzie..

 

^^^

[chw42]

But 5 years before that they had one of the best rated systems in baseball. And look at how many great players they produced.

 

I think there's a difference between what people like Keith Law thinks and what you actually have.

 

The Cubs' minor league system has always been overrated.

[greg775]

One other stream of consciousness comment as I watch the Cub game at work. ...

 

It's nice to be having this discussion while the team is ... in first place. I mean there still is a chance it could be a special season.

Though diehard Sox fans on here can't be too optimistic considering what we've already been through (horrible first two months; lousy efforts vs. Cleveland and Minnie; continuing s***tiness by some of the fans' former favorite players).

[fathom]

The thing with the White Sox is I have absolutely no confidence in their ability to draft and develop their own players. Maybe they're just cursed? With that said, we're going to have to get some production from guys like Beckham, Hudson, and Viciedo (signed, not drafted). With the way Peavy and Rios become very expensive in the next few years, and the huge extension Danks would need to stay, we will have to find some starters from within. The injuries in the minors this year has to really hurt KW's evaluation of their ETA in the Majors.

[iamshack]

Other than Peavy, and that was more of a case of them wanting to dump salary, you have to go back to 2004 the last time the Sox added a legitimate talent at the deadline. Like fathom said, if this is the way we're going to operate year after year, we have to have better talent.

Well, considering the fact that in 2007 we weren't competitive, in 2006 we were 56-27 or something at the break, and in 2005, we won the World Series, I don't really see where you're going with that.

[iamshack]

I think there's a difference between what people like Keith Law thinks and what you actually have.

 

The Cubs' minor league system has always been overrated.

EVERY SYSTEM IS OVERRATED.

 

The internet has made everyone an armchair GM. Someone reads some glowing reviews on BA and suddenly the Rangers have the best system in the history of the game, fully stocked with certain future all-stars, even though none of us has ever seen any of them play.

 

 

[bigruss]

EVERY SYSTEM IS OVERRATED.

 

The internet has made everyone an armchair GM. Someone reads some glowing reviews on BA and suddenly the Rangers have the best system in the history of the game, fully stocked with certain future all-stars, even though none of us has ever seen any of them play.

Yet, they were able to trade for Cliff Lee and launch themselves into top 3 AL team talks.

[Marty34]

It was never Kotsay over Thome for DH. It was Santos over Thome. You just can't carry 12 pitchers and have Thome as a part-time DH on the roster. He doesn't play a position and he's going to have to be pinch-run for in close games. If the Sox were willing to ear Linebrink's contract they'd have re-signed Thome, but the Sox never eat contracts.

[chw42]

EVERY SYSTEM IS OVERRATED.

 

The internet has made everyone an armchair GM. Someone reads some glowing reviews on BA and suddenly the Rangers have the best system in the history of the game, fully stocked with certain future all-stars, even though none of us has ever seen any of them play.

 

Ours is consistently underrated. A lot of it is reputation. And for some reason, the Cubs' system has always been way more overrated than just about any other system.

[chw42]

It was never Kotsay over Thome for DH. It was Santos over Thome. You just can't carry 12 pitchers and have Thome as a part-time DH on the roster. He doesn't play a position and he's going to have to be pinch-run for in close games. If the Sox were willing to ear Linebrink's contract they'd have re-signed Thome, but the Sox never eat contracts.

 

So you're saying that you'd rather have Jayson Nix instead of Thome? When they said no to Thome, barely anybody knew who Sergio Santos even was.

[iamshack]

Yet, they were able to trade for Cliff Lee and launch themselves into top 3 AL team talks.

We could have done the same thing. We were actually reported to have been "right there" in the talks. We just didn't want to move Beckham.

 

Keep in mind we have been competitive and have won a title. The Rangers have done nothing in like, their entire history in the league.

 

So because they were able to acquire Cliff Lee this season we should try and replicate their model?

 

Give me a break.

[fathom]

Kotsay is swinging the bat very well?

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,4247016.story

[fathom]

Also, Ozzie's saying the same crap about not wanting just a DH

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,5832319.story

[chw42]

To me it was a chance to change the scenario and create more ways to score runs, and we're doing it

 

Ozzie, finding more ways to score runs is not the key. SCORING RUNS IS THE KEY. It doesn't matter how you do it.

 

And this whole "Mark Kotsay is just unlucky" bulls*** is getting old. Yes, his BABIP is low. But there's a damn reason for it. Go look at the amount of line drives he's hitting and you'll find out why he's nearing the mendoza line.

Edited July 26, 2010 by chw42

[Pumpkin Escobar]

I don't really post much on here but I always check in for news, read threads from my phone to see how people feel, etc. Just trying to get the idea of Sox nation in comparison to my own views of things.

 

In the past, I had posted on here about the sox organization as a whole. I was very adamant that we should've dealt away a majority of our team in 2007. We had come off a 2006 year where we were clearly one of the better teams in baseball but just couldn't get by the Twins and Tigers. At this point, we knew we had a weak farm and we also knew we had aging veteran's who were coming off of big seasons that could've fixed that problem for us.

 

At the time, Cleveland looked like they would be superior shortly. We know and knew the Twins had our number and the Tigers looked to be on the up and up. A perfect time to deal off the vets, develop a farm, and unlike most teams who need to firesale, we had a 100 million dollar payroll we could've stretched back out through free agency putting us possibly in the same or better position in the majors hwile loading up the farm.

 

The next year we watched our lack of bullets not land one of the best young players in baseball in Cabrera. Instead he went to our division, where he dominates, for guys who will not pan out but had that "big prospect" allure which we have majorly lacked for nearly a decade. Sure we've had one or two get way up there in the eyes of scouts but never has their been talk about major depth, both with high end prospects or middle guys. Our high end are considered middle and it hurts us. That reputation kills us in trades and I laugh because I see deals like today with Haren and wonder how the hell we couldn't top that, assuming we wanted to.

 

Anyways, I'm not diving off the bandwagon because I believe we'll have to sell whats left down there to land a big bat but that big bat could get us deep into the season/playoffs. Go to a 3 man come playoffs and maybe, just maybe, make a run. Thats the optomist in me.

 

The reality is that this seasons win streak was the worst thing for this club and our future. We finally were going to do what needed to be done. We could've seen how kenny did in a new environment of trading where he needs to stock things and not empty them. We have some hot bats, expiring contracts, good arms all that could be sold this season. Finally. in many cases, being sold too late to achieve optimal value. I understand loyalty but you do that for the greats, not one of the best players on s***ty teams. If we didn't have loyalty to Frank to let him stick it out full-time, and made the smart organizational move then there shouldn't be anything for buehrle or paulie. Those guys should've been moved years ago. Not saying their time is up, just saying they never were Johan or Pujols where their value hardly would take a hit, so you sometimes need to maximize value and sell high, not low.

 

We didn't, we won't. Kenny is in a catch 22. Ozzie I think does stupid things. I think he is a decent manager but needs to manage according to what a smart gm thinks can win. Not what ozzie thinks his style needs to win because he is simply a baseball and NL purist. AL mindset is severly lacking. You need to do many of the things he preaches to be successful in either league. Difference is that in the AL, you cannot rely on them, you just need to do them well.

 

I wanted both guys fired at the start of the season. I wanted them fired with how bad we were. Kenny for basically not having use to us if Ozzie would be deciding who was needed anyways. I wanted ozzie gone because it appeared to backfire but in all honesty today - I think Ozzie can stay. I by no means think he is a brilliant mind in a baseball sense when compared to others. But I think he knows his s*** enough that he is a decent manager. It could be worse - see jerry manuel. He has this team in first somehow. We all b**** about kotsay and company and then b**** about Ozzie. Well as bad as those guys are, then Ozzie msust be doing something right.

 

Kenny I am not sure on. He may need to be the one who goes as I think he does some great things but some stupid ones. I think he is more concerned with his reputation and feeding that then he is actually about the sox.

 

So that is my spiel. Lengthy but hopefully I contributed something of use and you can comment accordingly.

[fathom]

Awesome Pumpkin, please post more.

[chw42]

I don't really post much on here but I always check in for news, read threads from my phone to see how people feel, etc. Just trying to get the idea of Sox nation in comparison to my own views of things.

 

In the past, I had posted on here about the sox organization as a whole. I was very adamant that we should've dealt away a majority of our team in 2007. We had come off a 2006 year where we were clearly one of the better teams in baseball but just couldn't get by the Twins and Tigers. At this point, we knew we had a weak farm and we also knew we had aging veteran's who were coming off of big seasons that could've fixed that problem for us.

 

At the time, Cleveland looked like they would be superior shortly. We know and knew the Twins had our number and the Tigers looked to be on the up and up. A perfect time to deal off the vets, develop a farm, and unlike most teams who need to firesale, we had a 100 million dollar payroll we could've stretched back out through free agency putting us possibly in the same or better position in the majors hwile loading up the farm.

 

The next year we watched our lack of bullets not land one of the best young players in baseball in Cabrera. Instead he went to our division, where he dominates, for guys who will not pan out but had that "big prospect" allure which we have majorly lacked for nearly a decade. Sure we've had one or two get way up there in the eyes of scouts but never has their been talk about major depth, both with high end prospects or middle guys. Our high end are considered middle and it hurts us. That reputation kills us in trades and I laugh because I see deals like today with Haren and wonder how the hell we couldn't top that, assuming we wanted to.

 

Anyways, I'm not diving off the bandwagon because I believe we'll have to sell whats left down there to land a big bat but that big bat could get us deep into the season/playoffs. Go to a 3 man come playoffs and maybe, just maybe, make a run. Thats the optomist in me.

 

The reality is that this seasons win streak was the worst thing for this club and our future. We finally were going to do what needed to be done. We could've seen how kenny did in a new environment of trading where he needs to stock things and not empty them. We have some hot bats, expiring contracts, good arms all that could be sold this season. Finally. in many cases, being sold too late to achieve optimal value. I understand loyalty but you do that for the greats, not one of the best players on s***ty teams. If we didn't have loyalty to Frank to let him stick it out full-time, and made the smart organizational move then there shouldn't be anything for buehrle or paulie. Those guys should've been moved years ago. Not saying their time is up, just saying they never were Johan or Pujols where their value hardly would take a hit, so you sometimes need to maximize value and sell high, not low.

 

We didn't, we won't. Kenny is in a catch 22. Ozzie I think does stupid things. I think he is a decent manager but needs to manage according to what a smart gm thinks can win. Not what ozzie thinks his style needs to win because he is simply a baseball and NL purist. AL mindset is severly lacking. You need to do many of the things he preaches to be successful in either league. Difference is that in the AL, you cannot rely on them, you just need to do them well.

 

I wanted both guys fired at the start of the season. I wanted them fired with how bad we were. Kenny for basically not having use to us if Ozzie would be deciding who was needed anyways. I wanted ozzie gone because it appeared to backfire but in all honesty today - I think Ozzie can stay. I by no means think he is a brilliant mind in a baseball sense when compared to others. But I think he knows his s*** enough that he is a decent manager. It could be worse - see jerry manuel. He has this team in first somehow. We all b**** about kotsay and company and then b**** about Ozzie. Well as bad as those guys are, then Ozzie msust be doing something right.

 

Kenny I am not sure on. He may need to be the one who goes as I think he does some great things but some stupid ones. I think he is more concerned with his reputation and feeding that then he is actually about the sox.

 

So that is my spiel. Lengthy but hopefully I contributed something of use and you can comment accordingly.

 

Do not confuse the team's success with Ozzie's ability as a manager, especially on-field. The only credit I will give Ozzie for is keeping this team's heads up when we were buried in s***. But even then, the team was kind of due given the talent they had on the pitching staff and the weak schedule. Other than that, he hasn't done much to help. In fact, him not wanting Thome probably put the team in that hole to begin with. So he created a problem, kind of fixed it, and is now trying to ruin this team's chance at winning anything again by saying he doesn't want any help when he clearly needs it. I know it's bad to yell for help or say you want so and so as a manager, but if he really wanted help, he wouldn't be saying anything. Just remember this, you don't get credit for creating problems and patching them up.

Edited July 26, 2010 by chw42

[bigruss]

We could have done the same thing. We were actually reported to have been "right there" in the talks. We just didn't want to move Beckham.

 

Keep in mind we have been competitive and have won a title. The Rangers have done nothing in like, their entire history in the league.

 

So because they were able to acquire Cliff Lee this season we should try and replicate their model?

 

Give me a break.

You just reinforced my point, the Sox werent able to acquire Lee because they didnt have enough in the system and they couldnt detract from the MLB team by losing Beckham.

 

The Sox overall have a pretty bleak history too, but Im not talking about history, Im talking about improving the franchise now.

[Jordan4life_2007]

You just reinforced my point, the Sox werent able to acquire Lee because they didnt have enough in the system and they couldnt detract from the MLB team by losing Beckham.

 

The Sox overall have a pretty bleak history too, but Im not talking about history, Im talking about improving the franchise now.

 

Some are going to stroke that 2005 title until they're 6 feet under. We're not some kinda top-flight organization because of one title in the last 90+ years.

[fathom]

Some are going to stroke that 2005 title until they're 6 feet under. We're not some kinda top-flight organization because of one title in the last 90+ years.

 

I said it earlier today, but if the Tigers acquire Dunn, and the Sox get no one...the average fan will go into meltdown mode.