I want Ozzie and KW gone.

[iamshack]

You just reinforced my point, the Sox werent able to acquire Lee because they didnt have enough in the system and they couldnt detract from the MLB team by losing Beckham.

 

The Sox overall have a pretty bleak history too, but Im not talking about history, Im talking about improving the franchise now.

Not true. The Rangers had a bigger need in the starting rotation than we did, and thus were forced to open up another hole in order to fill the one in their rotation. We did not have the hole in our pitching staff, and thus it would have been silly to open up another hole just so we could add another SP.

 

I personally think Smoak has looked even worse than Beckham did when he was lost in April and May, and so I don't know if that will end up costing the Rangers.

 

But make no mistake about it. They traded their equivalent of Gordon for the chance at winning it all this year. Kenny went out and got Peavy last year so we wouldn't have to.

 

 

[iamshack]

Some are going to stroke that 2005 title until they're 6 feet under. We're not some kinda top-flight organization because of one title in the last 90+ years.

Oh that's f***ing bulls*** and you know it.

 

First of all, a title is a title. And if you're going to insult me for that being the most cherished moment in my sports fan life, than f*** you. What the hell are you watching for?

 

Secondly, the Rangers have how many division titles in the last 30 years?

[elrockinMT]

I must be missing something. We are in 1st place in our division right? Let me look at the paper. Right!

[dyuen]

Not surprised, and I wouldnt be surprised if some if not all of those people still have their jobs because they are good friends of Jr, KW, etc. Hell, for all I know KW knew about it but wouldnt make a strong enough move to stop it.

KW was absolutely crushed when he found out about Wilder.

[caulfield12]

Yes, we are in that position. Thanks to a ridiculous 31-game stretch. Whatever KW does, will be lacking in either the pitching or hitting department. My beef is why wait until the deadline to upgrade the offense when it was crystal clear it needed upgrading in March and there were legitimate, realistic options out there? Now you can't foresee injuries. And like I said, I don't blame KW or Ozzie at all for what happened with Peavy. But look at our dilemma now.

 

 

 

Just like I have no say so in whether Ozzie or KW get canned, I have no say so in who their replacements would be. Honestly? I have no idea off the top of my head. I know I'd like a manager that realized it's 2010 and managed like it. I'd like a GM that realizes unless you're the Yankees, the farm does matter. Specific names? Not my job.

 

 

 

Total copout there. The talent has been there, we've been horrible at identifying it (and being cheap as f*** hasn't helped).

 

 

 

No excuse. When you have to go back to the late 90's to find a legitimate player we signed from Latin America there is something wrong.

 

 

 

See above.

 

 

Yes, there has been a long lag time between Ordonez/Carlos Lee in the Latin American market.

 

However, we went out and signed Viciedo to the biggest bonus ever, yes? International free agent, and we unearthed a gem in Alexei Ramirez, also from what is technically Latin America. We also spent more money on Borchard at the time ($5.3 milllion?) than any team in baseball history on a first round draft pick in that position of the draft...of course, he turned out to be a bust, certainly not the one to lead the franchise that was expected. If Joe Borchard had become another version of Dunn that quite a few expected, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Then you also have to consider Takatsu and Iguchi, who were in their own ways both key components in the 2005 WS title.

 

The fact of the matter is that we really shouldn't be winning over the Twins with Peavy out, Garcia on his last legs and Hudson unable to pitch with any degree of command and control in the strike zone.

 

I don't think acquiring Haren would have been the right move, simply because the cost would have been Hudson/Flowers/Viciedo again...and, once again, there would have been ZERO wiggle room for 2011 with Haren's contract added onto the payroll. It has been constantly pointed out that we can't have over 50% of our payroll invested in 4 starters if we want to field any type of offense. As it is, we'll have a very very difficult time bringing back Konerko and AJ, yes?

 

The other thing you have to take into consideration is that so many of our young players have gotten hurt, Mitchell, in particular, but also Morel, Phegley, Trayce Thompson, Holmberg has been hurt as well. If you had a healthy Mitchell (looking like Carl Crawford-Lite) and Trayce Thompson putting up a huge season in low A and continuing to make progress as a baseball player, then you'd have the package to go out and get almost anyone, IF IF IF Peavy hadn't gotten injured.

 

Remember, the 2008 team survived the losses of Crede (Uribe at 3B), Contreras, Linebrink and Quentin for the final weeks...yes, we got wiped out by the Rays, but at least we got there, and we had the lead in all of those games but one, it's not like we were the Cubs over their last two postseasons.

 

None of the three teams fighting in the AL Central have a true shutdown ace in their rotation, Justin Verlander is the closest. After that, you'd probably have a tie between Liriano and Danks with baseball scouts (advantage to the Sox) and Gavin Floyd would have to factor in there with Pavano, but Gavin still hasn't put together one WHOLE completely dominant season. He seems/feels/looks like an ace, but you can never be quite 100% sure about him.

 

With all that said, I think Ozzie and KW have done a very good job under the circumstances keeping this team in contention. Most of us thought the season was over on June 9th, but we've had an amazing run and STILL are in first place, as of this moment.

 

If we want to fire Guillen, then the Red Sox, Angels, Phillies and Twins should also fire their managers and GM's for underperforming, yes?

 

 

[bigruss]

Not true. The Rangers had a bigger need in the starting rotation than we did, and thus were forced to open up another hole in order to fill the one in their rotation. We did not have the hole in our pitching staff, and thus it would have been silly to open up another hole just so we could add another SP.

 

I personally think Smoak has looked even worse than Beckham did when he was lost in April and May, and so I don't know if that will end up costing the Rangers.

 

But make no mistake about it. They traded their equivalent of Gordon for the chance at winning it all this year. Kenny went out and got Peavy last year so we wouldn't have to.

They had depth in their organization to replace Smoak and not worry too much about the short term/future implications that come with that trade.

 

The Sox dont have much depth at all behind Beckham.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

Do not confuse the team's success with Ozzie's ability as a manager, especially on-field. The only credit I will give Ozzie for is keeping this team's heads up when we were buried in s***. But even then, the team was kind of due given the talent they had on the pitching staff and the weak schedule. Other than that, he hasn't done much to help. In fact, him not wanting Thome probably put the team in that hole to begin with. So he created a problem, kind of fixed it, and is now trying to ruin this team's chance at winning anything again by saying he doesn't want any help when he clearly needs it. I know it's bad to yell for help or say you want so and so as a manager, but if he really wanted help, he wouldn't be saying anything. Just remember this, you don't get credit for creating problems and patching them up.

 

 

No arguments there. Fact of the matter is whether he kept our heads up or managed well, he still was doing something positive. We can't have it both ways and say he is a horrible manager for all the things he is doing and then be in first place. Something needs to be working. i think he is still learning what he is doing as a manager, not everyone steps into managing and becomes Gardenhire (who hasn't wont a WS but routinely is praised for his success. Which he deserves). Look at guys like La Russa, Torre, etc. It takes time in many cases. I think Ozzie deserved to be fired in the past but at this point, you need to ask yourself a few questions....What is he doing to lose his job? 1st place squad is hard to reason with. Who else is out there? Is it an improvement? Etc.

 

 

I don't think anything that we could realistically attain is out there or better.

 

Thanks fathom.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Pumpkin Escobar

[ThunderBolt]

This team is winning in spite of Ozzie, not because of him. And if they lose this division it will be in large part due to the choices he made and the team he asked for at the start of the year.

[iamshack]

They had depth in their organization to replace Smoak and not worry too much about the short term/future implications that come with that trade.

 

The Sox dont have much depth at all behind Beckham.

No, they have the illusion of depth. They have Chris Davis.

[bigruss]

No, they have the illusion of depth. They have Chris Davis.

Who still has potential, and if not, they still have plenty of pieces in the farm to trade for a 1b.

[Milkman delivers]

This has been the most successful 5 years in franchise history. Really step back and think about that.

 

Not to mention its pretty silly to get on Kenny Williams for not making moves, the guy pulls the trigger more than any other GM in the game.

 

Well, I'd say that was probably the mid-to-late 1910's.

[iamshack]

Who still has potential, and if not, they still have plenty of pieces in the farm to trade for a 1b.

Then why didn't they trade all these other "pieces" instead of Smoak in the first place?

[Milkman delivers]

Other than the horrible farm system and the whole let's listen to my stupid manager thing, I've liked the job that KW has done.

 

Ozzie is a great off the field manager, he treats his players right and the clubhouse is pretty loose. On the other hand, he just puts his players in a position to fail.

 

Examples: Mark Kotsay's got a career .750 OPS, okay, let's DH him and bat him 5th! Hey Dewayne Wise, how high is your OBP? .300? Okay, lead off for me. Hey A.J. what are you hitting? .235? Alright, bat right next to Kotsay so the other team can bring in a lefty in the 7th and get both of you out easily. Hey Randy Williams, I know you suck against both righties and lefties, but I gotta bring you in here because it's what the book and my gut says!

 

He makes weird lineup choices, he had Randy Williams in this bullpen because he felt the need for a second left hander no matter what. I'm still puzzled over why he put Rob Mackowiak in center when we had 4 guys who hit 30+ home runs in 2006 and a declining pitching staff in the second half.

 

With Ozzie, you like him for what he does off the field, but that might not even be half the battle as a manager. You still have to do know what you're doing on the field.

 

Unless they somehow get into his doghouse, at which point they have no chance to get out.

[caulfield12]

They had depth in their organization to replace Smoak and not worry too much about the short term/future implications that come with that trade.

 

The Sox dont have much depth at all behind Beckham.

 

 

If Mitchell and Thompson were healthy and producing at their expected ability levels, this conversation wouldn't exist.

 

If Jake Peavy was still healthy...

 

Even if Joe Borchard defied the logic of Sox first round busts and became the franchise player.

 

Actually, we had enough depth in the middle infield that we could waive Jason Nix. Let's face it, almost EVERYTHING that could go wrong with our minor league system has happened, and we're still standing. Jordan Danks and Flowers have lost a lot of their shine (especially Jordan Danks), we've lost our two players with perhaps the most future potential as impact players, we've lost our most expensive starting pitcher and "ace" in Peavy, and yet we're still in first place.

 

Viciedo and Hudson have demonstrated their potential and youth at the same time, which is the problem with prospects, they're not finished products. Heck, even Beckham, with the college pedigree in the SEC, numerous awards, accolades and honors, he still fell victim to the dreaded Sophomore Slump.

 

I think we also have to give a lot of credit to KW for the acquisitions of Santos, JJ Putz, Omar Vizquel and Andruw Jones (for the first six weeks, but he's still valuable as the 25th man/PR/PH).

 

The only mistake, and it's the biggest and most obvious one, was staying with Jones and Kotsay for so long. But we were winning games with them (the same argument for leaving Brian Anderson in the line-up in 2006)...so Ozzie didn't want to change things up. Fine, understandable. We're now 4-6 after the All-Star break and we have to look at getting better again (although we should be 6-4 and up 3 games on the Twins STILL).

 

They really have a quandary to decide if Mark Teahen taking at-bats from Kotsay is enough of an upgrade to justify not making a move that will cost them in the future...versus someone like LaRoche or Luke Scott, etc.

 

 

[bigruss]

Then why didn't they trade all these other "pieces" instead of Smoak in the first place?

Because the Mariners wanted him and they had enough leverage to get him. Cmon, really? You're going to ask that?

[bigruss]

If Mitchell and Thompson were healthy and producing at their expected ability levels, this conversation wouldn't exist.

 

If Jake Peavy was still healthy...

 

Even if Joe Borchard defied the logic of Sox first round busts and became the franchise player.

 

Actually, we had enough depth in the middle infield that we could waive Jason Nix. Let's face it, almost EVERYTHING that could go wrong with our minor league system has happened, and we're still standing. Jordan Danks and Flowers have lost a lot of their shine (especially Jordan Danks), we've lost our two players with perhaps the most future potential as impact players, we've lost our most expensive starting pitcher and "ace" in Peavy, and yet we're still in first place.

 

Viciedo and Hudson have demonstrated their potential and youth at the same time, which is the problem with prospects, they're not finished products. Heck, even Beckham, with the college pedigree in the SEC, numerous awards, accolades and honors, he still fell victim to the dreaded Sophomore Slump.

 

I think we also have to give a lot of credit to KW for the acquisitions of Santos, JJ Putz, Omar Vizquel and Andruw Jones (for the first six weeks, but he's still valuable as the 25th man/PR/PH).

 

The only mistake, and it's the biggest and most obvious one, was staying with Jones and Kotsay for so long. But we were winning games with them (the same argument for leaving Brian Anderson in the line-up in 2006)...so Ozzie didn't want to change things up. Fine, understandable. We're now 4-6 after the All-Star break and we have to look at getting better again (although we should be 6-4 and up 3 games on the Twins STILL).

 

They really have a quandary to decide if Mark Teahen taking at-bats from Kotsay is enough of an upgrade to justify not making a move that will cost them in the future...versus someone like LaRoche or Luke Scott, etc.

Depth as in Lillibridge?

[caulfield12]

Unless they somehow get into his doghouse, at which point they have no chance to get out.

 

That's a legitimate point.

 

The big black mark for Ozzie and KW the last couple of seasons has been the Swisher trades, both of them.

 

Obviously, if Swisher was producing for the White Sox the same way he has in NY, we wouldn't be talking about Dunn, Fielder, LaRoche, Scott, Cust, either.

 

The guy obviously rubbed quite a few of our clubhouse leaders in the wrong way, he pouted when he lost his job to DeWayne Wise, he refused to listen to Greg Walker and would only talk to his father about his swing...I suppose you can say it was a "bad fit," that Ozzie created a bad fit (same thing with Cabrera, although I haven't seen any threads about missing him, except last year when he was helping to lead yet another team to the playoffs), whatever.

 

That's a fair point. And yet it also flies in the face of the conventional wisdom, to play a career minor league journeyman over an "established" veteran player, you really have to do something to piss off Guillen.

 

 

[iamshack]

Because the Mariners wanted him and they had enough leverage to get him. Cmon, really? You're going to ask that?

That's just bs...if the Rangers have 6 or 7 other great pieces they could have moved them instead. The Mariners were not obsessed with Smoak by any means. They were interested in major league ready players, and apparently the Rangers had just as few in their system as we have.

[Heads22]

I'm not attacking anybody either, but it would make threads more remarkable (and amusing) if people that call for heads would say whom they want to come in.

 

100% endorse

[caulfield12]

Depth as in Lillibridge?

 

Stranger things have happened in baseball...than a player in his mid to late 20's figuring things out.

 

How many teams in the game have quality depth at every position? Look at the line-ups the Red Sox have been forced to use all season long, or the Tigers' line-up in the first game of the double-header against the Blue Jays.

 

The fact of the matter is that we could play Vizquel and Lillibridge at 2B, not to mention Alexei Ramirez. I think we're better off than 20-25 MLB teams in terms of depth at 2B.

[bigruss]

That's just bs...if the Rangers have 6 or 7 other great pieces they could have moved them instead. The Mariners were not obsessed with Smoak by any means. They were interested in major league ready players, and apparently the Rangers had just as few in their system as we have.

Then why did they turn away from an agreed deal with the Yankees?

[fathom]

Shack, you know I love you, but the turning point in the Lee negotations was when Texas decided to include Smoak. Smoak was thought of higher by the Mariners than any other prospects they could have possibly received.

[Vance Law]

I said it earlier today, but if the Tigers acquire Dunn, and the Sox get no one...the average fan will go into meltdown mode.

 

Though in reality the Tigers would be, at that point, worse off than they were a few days ago before Maggs and Guillen got hurt. But I do see you noted "average fan."

[dyuen]

Then why did they turn away from an agreed deal with the Yankees?

I don't know, I thought the yankee offer was better. Montero over Smoak IMO

[bigruss]

I don't know, I thought the yankee offer was better. Montero over Smoak IMO

The Mariners thought otherwise though, and that was what mattered.