I want Ozzie and KW gone.

[LittleHurt05]

Then why did they turn away from an agreed deal with the Yankees?

 

I remember hearing that the M's had an issue with the health of one of the prospects and the Yankees wouldn't switch him out for another guy.

[fathom]

I remember hearing that the M's had an issue with the health of one of the prospects and the Yankees wouldn't switch him out for another guy.

 

Yes, but that was only a cover for backing out cause Texas agreed to finally give up Smoak.

[Milkman delivers]

The Rays have picked 1st or close to 1st for the better part of a decade. Throw them out of the equation.

 

The Rangers/Reds/Rockies have what to show for all their magnificent development of players? What have they done that we have not?

 

The Dodgers did not develop Ethier. They received him in trade for Milton Bradley. While they did develop those other guys, they also have had numerous other guys that have not panned out and they have lost out on because of opportunity costs. Kershaw is outstanding, I wanted us to draft him, unfortunately he went 7th overall. We picked 29th that year. Billingsly has been a nice pitcher. So we traded Brandon McCarthy for John Danks. What's the difference? Jonothan Broxton. We claimed Bobby Jenks off waivers. Very similar players. James Loney is a very nice hitter but has no power and is basically Mark Grace squared instead of the amazing player he was once supposed to be. Again, opportunity costs...it's taken them 4-5 years to figure this out. Martin is a nice little catcher, but shockingly has regressed badly since the steroid era. Hmm.

 

I mean having your own players is nice and all, but it's costing them in other ways that it is not costing us. You can't ignore that.

 

What? Russell Martin's first year in the major leagues was 2006. When do you consider the end of the steroid era? I mean, they started the random testing in 2004.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

If Mitchell and Thompson were healthy and producing at their expected ability levels, this conversation wouldn't exist.

 

If Jake Peavy was still healthy...

 

Even if Joe Borchard defied the logic of Sox first round busts and became the franchise player.

 

Actually, we had enough depth in the middle infield that we could waive Jason Nix. Let's face it, almost EVERYTHING that could go wrong with our minor league system has happened, and we're still standing. Jordan Danks and Flowers have lost a lot of their shine (especially Jordan Danks), we've lost our two players with perhaps the most future potential as impact players, we've lost our most expensive starting pitcher and "ace" in Peavy, and yet we're still in first place.

 

Viciedo and Hudson have demonstrated their potential and youth at the same time, which is the problem with prospects, they're not finished products. Heck, even Beckham, with the college pedigree in the SEC, numerous awards, accolades and honors, he still fell victim to the dreaded Sophomore Slump.

 

I think we also have to give a lot of credit to KW for the acquisitions of Santos, JJ Putz, Omar Vizquel and Andruw Jones (for the first six weeks, but he's still valuable as the 25th man/PR/PH).

 

The only mistake, and it's the biggest and most obvious one, was staying with Jones and Kotsay for so long. But we were winning games with them (the same argument for leaving Brian Anderson in the line-up in 2006)...so Ozzie didn't want to change things up. Fine, understandable. We're now 4-6 after the All-Star break and we have to look at getting better again (although we should be 6-4 and up 3 games on the Twins STILL).

 

They really have a quandary to decide if Mark Teahen taking at-bats from Kotsay is enough of an upgrade to justify not making a move that will cost them in the future...versus someone like LaRoche or Luke Scott, etc.

 

 

The problem here is the things you are saying can be applied to anything. What if we just dealt with the fact our system is weak and spent more money in drafts or internationally. Maybe developing a better scouting department for starters. Or drafting guys who normally fall due to their contract size or signability concerns instead of selecting these overly projectable average arms every year. Only time we take risks are for these stupid toolsy outfielders. Apply that sense to some pitchers from time to time and we may end up an ace in the system for a change and not having to deal for them. Something like a guy like Porcello falling past us to the Tigers comes to mind immediately. That ties into another subject which is the whole white sox vs boras nonsense.

 

Anyways, fact is, most of those guys are good in our eyes because they are "our guys". Before Beckham, we didn't have a top 10 pick since Frank. Thats a long time to not get the top-tier talent because if you aren't buying it later in the draft, then you have to do well at scouting and get lucky to land it after that. Which we don't do.

 

If you can't scout well, then you cant draft well. If we don't draft well, who cares who we have trying to develop them. If we don't develop them then why not try to deal them for something. Which is where we sit today.

 

Horrible farm system. We can't apply what ifs. Things need to change down there and then it won't matter who we trade or whats left. It can only help in every aspect for this organization. Financially, talent wise, on the trade fronts, call-ups for injury, etc. Doesnt meant we need to lose 100 games for five straight years. Just need to wake up.

[newportitis]

How many Cy Young winners or true #1s have been traded for prospects the last few years? I think 5? Out of 30 teams, five

have both been in position and had the goods to get one of those guys. Kenny got one. Nobody has come up with the prospects to get two of them.

Edited July 26, 2010 by logic101

[iamshack]

Shack, you know I love you, but the turning point in the Lee negotations was when Texas decided to include Smoak. Smoak was thought of higher by the Mariners than any other prospects they could have possibly received.

That may be the case...I'm not claiming that Smoak wasn't a great prospect.

 

What I am claiming is that the White Sox could have acquired Lee by trading Beckham and opened up the same hole as the Rangers did.

 

The difference is that the White Sox don't need pitching as badly as the Rangers do.

 

Now whether we will address our offense as the Rangers did their pitching, remains to be seen.

 

But simply because the Rangers shoot their wad on a top prospect does not mean that the other prospects will develop into anything.

 

Irregardless, I don't even know why I am engaging in this nonsense. Certainly the Rangers have what is perceived to be a stronger farm system than the White Sox.

 

But I follow baseball to cheer on the major league team. If success to you, equals who has the highest rated system, by all means, let's pack your bags and send you to Arlington.

 

Meanwhile, I'll stay here and cheer on the major league team that has produced results.

[greg775]

nd made the smart organizational move then there shouldn't be anything for buehrle or paulie. Those guys should've been moved years ago. Not saying their time is up, just saying they never were Johan or Pujols where their value hardly would take a hit, so you sometimes need to maximize value and sell high, not low.

 

How many years ago? Those have been 2 nice guys to have around. I mean in my opinion Mark and Paulie have been pretty darn productive. Don't know what we could have gotten years ago that would adequately replace the enjoyment of those two for me.

 

p.s. Glad to see others being involved in aggressive soxtalk rather than myself. I'm still trying to figure out how somebody can tell somebody "f*** you" on here and not get in trouble and I get in trouble for my posts, but that's just me. Although I did agree with the overall sentiment of the f*** you post except for the f*** you part. I also cherish 2005.

Edited July 26, 2010 by greg775

[iamshack]

What? Russell Martin's first year in the major leagues was 2006. When do you consider the end of the steroid era? I mean, they started the random testing in 2004.

Well, his OPS went from .843 in 2006 to .680 last year and this year. Those are his age 26-27 year old seasons.

 

The reason he sucks, I could care less. The point is that this is the price you pay in opportunity costs for developing your own players. I don't know how many times I have to point this out.

[chisox2334]

winning cures all and hopefully sox get back on track this week.

[bigruss]

That may be the case...I'm not claiming that Smoak wasn't a great prospect.

 

What I am claiming is that the White Sox could have acquired Lee by trading Beckham and opened up the same hole as the Rangers did.

 

The difference is that the White Sox don't need pitching as badly as the Rangers do.

 

Now whether we will address our offense as the Rangers did their pitching, remains to be seen.

 

But simply because the Rangers shoot their wad on a top prospect does not mean that the other prospects will develop into anything.

 

Irregardless, I don't even know why I am engaging in this nonsense. Certainly the Rangers have what is perceived to be a stronger farm system than the White Sox.

 

But I follow baseball to cheer on the major league team. If success to you, equals who has the highest rated system, by all means, let's pack your bags and send you to Arlington.

 

Meanwhile, I'll stay here and cheer on the major league team that has produced results.

We're on two different planes apparently, because I wasnt arguing whether or not the Sox couldve gotten Lee with a Beckham package (which I dont know wouldve enticed them more).

 

Im saying that the Rangers did not "shoot their wad" by trading Smoak, in fact, they have quite a bit left to still be able to trade if they wanted to and could keep adding to their team now or keep the prospects to develop more.

 

That ability to keep adding pieces to a first place team is what makes them amazing right now. Somehting the Sox can't do because they have so little depth. Yes, the MLB talent is what matters, but if you dont have the minor league talent to add to the MLB talent then youre in a s***ty position.

[Milkman delivers]

Well, his OPS went from .843 in 2006 to .680 last year and this year. Those are his age 26-27 year old seasons.

 

The reason he sucks, I could care less. The point is that this is the price you pay in opportunity costs for developing your own players. I don't know how many times I have to point this out.

 

Well, the reason I responded is because you obviously insinuated that Martin used steroids and fell off because of the testing, while there has been steroid testing during his entire major league career. That's all.

[bigruss]

Well, his OPS went from .843 in 2006 to .680 last year and this year. Those are his age 26-27 year old seasons.

 

The reason he sucks, I could care less. The point is that this is the price you pay in opportunity costs for developing your own players. I don't know how many times I have to point this out.

You dont seem to be able to grasp/accept the fact that a strong minor league system can either deliver youth on your team (like Beckham) or impact players via trade (like Lee).

[southsideirish71]

The whitesox need to invest more into their drafting as well as the international free agency period. That investment can pay off in future trade capital as well as to help shore up our major league ball club with talent. But that is only part of the puzzle. We need to a much better job of preparing our young players from the first day that they step into our organization to be a major league ball player. Every step on the way for a minor leaguer should be teaching fundamental baseball, and how to play it. Each level should have the same organizational philosophy so when a player arrives they know how to plug into the team and start playing. That, over any scouting, is why the Twins have a good approach with their minor leagues. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you mess up their preparation you will never get the full talent out of that player. We have rushed flawed hitters and pitchers through our system for years, either to showcase them for a future trade or because their physical talents could overcome any deficiencies. Only later do we find out that major league scouts can exploit any major hole.

 

The one time I was completely head over heads livid with our lack of talent in the minor leagues was when Miguel Cabrera was available. Kenny would of traded the entire farm for him, however the farm was bare. Too many Josh Fields and Lance Broadways. If we spent a little more time on development, and maybe a bit more on the draft we may have had him. Now that guy is a game changer, and a building block. Thats a guy to get upset about. Not random X rental player. I would like to see the sox pick up a bat, because the Andruw Jones/Kotsay DH thing is sad. But in the same token. I dont want to sack half my team for a rental player. Sure if Miguel Cabrera is on the block, then sure.

 

 

[bigruss]

The whitesox need to invest more into their drafting as well as the international free agency period. That investment can pay off in future trade capital as well as to help shore up our major league ball club with talent. But that is only part of the puzzle. We need to a much better job of preparing our young players from the first day that they step into our organization to be a major league ball player. Every step on the way for a minor leaguer should be teaching fundamental baseball, and how to play it. Each level should have the same organizational philosophy so when a player arrives they know how to plug into the team and start playing. That, over any scouting, is why the Twins have a good approach with their minor leagues. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you mess up their preparation you will never get the full talent out of that player. We have rushed flawed hitters and pitchers through our system for years, either to showcase them for a future trade or because their physical talents could overcome any deficiencies. Only later do we find out that major league scouts can exploit any major hole.

 

The one time I was completely head over heads livid with our lack of talent in the minor leagues was when Miguel Cabrera was available. Kenny would of traded the entire farm for him, however the farm was bare. Too many Josh Fields and Lance Broadways. If we spent a little more time on development, and maybe a bit more on the draft we may have had him. Now that guy is a game changer, and a building block. Thats a guy to get upset about. Not random X rental player. I would like to see the sox pick up a bat, because the Andruw Jones/Kotsay DH thing is sad. But in the same token. I dont want to sack half my team for a rental player. Sure if Miguel Cabrera is on the block, then sure.

Pretty much exactly what I have been saying.

[ThunderBolt]

I agree with Greg and Heads that we should have replacements in mind for the guys we're suggesting getting rid of. I'm on record saying that i'd like KW to stick around. That being said, you could do a lot worse than Rick Hahn and Dave Martinez if you were looking for a pairing of guys who could lead the White Sox organization into a new era.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Oh that's f***ing bulls*** and you know it.

 

First of all, a title is a title. And if you're going to insult me for that being the most cherished moment in my sports fan life, than f*** you. What the hell are you watching for?

 

Secondly, the Rangers have how many division titles in the last 30 years?

 

Wow. Step out for a while and come back to this? Are you kidding me? You act like I insulted your religion or something. Anyway, I'm just gonna remove myself from this thread before things get more exacerbated than they already are. But this definitely reinforces the fact that mods/admins play by a different set of rules than us "mortals." I would've already gotten a PM alerting me of a suspension if I had come at somebody like this.

[Thad Bosley]

I will be less of a White Sox fan the day Kenny Williams is no longer the General Manager of the Chicago White Sox.

 

I am so tired of this nonsense about farm teams. Look around, people. Look at who the best-rated farm systems have been in the last 5-10 years and then look at what they have actually produced. The once amazing systems of the Angels and Dodgers, loaded to the gils with player after player after player. And where has it got them?

 

The Red Sox are a very unique organization, and I often hope that we will model ours after theirs. That being the case, there are not a whole lot of other organizations out there that I would want our FO to try and replicate.

I truly enjoy your posts, all the time. This yet another example of a well-grounded yet wholly realistic analysis of the Sox' situation at hand. Well done - I'm a big fan!

[iamshack]

You dont seem to be able to grasp/accept the fact that a strong minor league system can either deliver youth on your team (like Beckham) or impact players via trade (like Lee).

I very much grasp the concept, Russ.

 

Where we are failing to have a meeting of the minds, so to speak, is because you are insinuating that there are no downsides to having a franchise built on developing the majority of your talent from within.

 

First of all, Smoak was the Rangers 1b of the future. My guess is that they would have preferred to keep him around as opposed to having to deal him for a 3 month rental, even if it was for the great Cliff Lee. They have no chance of resigning Lee, and so unless he helps deliver an World Series title this season, they will have traded their 1b of the future for 3 a chance that didn't pan out. Now if their system was as loaded with players able to help their MLB team as much as you contend it is, one would venture to guess that they could have enticed either the Mariners or some other team to trade them an ace without having to trade their 1b of the future. Shockingly, they were forced to do the same thing we would have had to do - open up a hole somewhere else and try to fill it with it someone who is probably not going to get the job done adequately. Whether they have some remaining depth to pull off another trade to replace Smoak seems pretty irrelevant, since they do not have the money to take on anymore payroll. They will probably have to go with Davis for the remainder of the year or acquire someone like Mike Lowell because their organization is bankrupt.

 

Secondly, trying to develop your own talent has many pitfalls, from prospects that cause you to let other producing veterans walk away because the prospect was blocked, to prospects that perform one year and then never again as the league adjusts to them and you are forced to sit through years of below replacement value performance in the name of being "patient," to trades you didn't make because that prospect was just too untouchable to move.

 

With the rate of attrition as high as it is, I would rather just trade 95% of them for players that give you some sort of performance certainty than to mess around with trying to guess which prospects will pan out and not pan out.

 

I'm not claiming, however, that having a good farm system is a bad thing. What I am claiming is that there are a lot of things this organization does very well - far better than other organizations do. And while the farm system is not one of them, I'm not so sure that I would rather we be worse off at the other things we do well in the name of improving our farm system.

[Thad Bosley]

The whitesox need to invest more into their drafting as well as the international free agency period. That investment can pay off in future trade capital as well as to help shore up our major league ball club with talent. But that is only part of the puzzle. We need to a much better job of preparing our young players from the first day that they step into our organization to be a major league ball player. Every step on the way for a minor leaguer should be teaching fundamental baseball, and how to play it. Each level should have the same organizational philosophy so when a player arrives they know how to plug into the team and start playing. That, over any scouting, is why the Twins have a good approach with their minor leagues. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you mess up their preparation you will never get the full talent out of that player. We have rushed flawed hitters and pitchers through our system for years, either to showcase them for a future trade or because their physical talents could overcome any deficiencies. Only later do we find out that major league scouts can exploit any major hole.

 

The one time I was completely head over heads livid with our lack of talent in the minor leagues was when Miguel Cabrera was available. Kenny would of traded the entire farm for him, however the farm was bare. Too many Josh Fields and Lance Broadways. If we spent a little more time on development, and maybe a bit more on the draft we may have had him. Now that guy is a game changer, and a building block. Thats a guy to get upset about. Not random X rental player. I would like to see the sox pick up a bat, because the Andruw Jones/Kotsay DH thing is sad. But in the same token. I dont want to sack half my team for a rental player. Sure if Miguel Cabrera is on the block, then sure.

Wasn't the presence of Buddy Bell supposed to change the culture/development of our minor league players? I'm not saying he hasn't had an impact, but at the same time, has he?

[SoxAce]

p.s. Glad to see others being involved in aggressive soxtalk rather than myself. I'm still trying to figure out how somebody can tell somebody "f*** you" on here and not get in trouble and I get in trouble for my posts, but that's just me. Although I did agree with the overall sentiment of the f*** you post except for the f*** you part. I also cherish 2005.

 

But this definitely reinforces the fact that mods/admins play by a different set of rules than us "mortals." I would've already gotten a PM alerting me of a suspension if I had come at somebody like this.

 

Don't worry. You both are not the only ones and I'm not just talking about myself from what I've noticed over time. I'll leave it at that.

 

BTW J4L, I'm shocked it was you who created this. I was waiting for my guy 101 to create something like this.

Edited July 26, 2010 by J.Reedfan8

[iamshack]

Wow. Step out for a while and come back to this? Are you kidding me? You act like I insulted your religion or something. Anyway, I'm just gonna remove myself from this thread before things get more exacerbated than they already are. But this definitely reinforces the fact that mods/admins play by a different set of rules than us "mortals." I would've already gotten a PM alerting me of a suspension if I had come at somebody like this.

Oh, so it's alright for you to say "Some are going to stroke that 2005 title until they're 6 feet under," as if I am some delusional fool who ignores the current situation and reminisces on 2005 while holding my penis?

 

I apologize for stepping over the line in my response to you, but I think my body of work in this forum suggests I am far from the person you were suggesting with that bulls*** provocation.

[greg775]

I'm not gonna pile on, but I'd be gone right now if I said that. I know cause I've already gotten my watch out letter and even the response was the kind of response I think I've been getting yelled at for.

 

I really am not trying to be a prick in my defense of Bobby, folks. I think if you went out for a beer with me you would actually like me. Or dinner at my favorite Mexican restaurant here. Lemme know if any of you are ever in my area.

Edited July 26, 2010 by greg775

[Pumpkin Escobar]

How many years ago? Those have been 2 nice guys to have around. I mean in my opinion Mark and Paulie have been pretty darn productive. Don't know what we could have gotten years ago that would adequately replace the enjoyment of those two for me.

 

p.s. Glad to see others being involved in aggressive soxtalk rather than myself. I'm still trying to figure out how somebody can tell somebody "f*** you" on here and not get in trouble and I get in trouble for my posts, but that's just me. Although I did agree with the overall sentiment of the f*** you post except for the f*** you part. I also cherish 2005.

 

I'm not knocking what they've done or do. I'm just saying this is a business and sometimes when things need to be done, they just need to be. Dealing one or both of them to help build for the future 3 years ago in my eyes was a smart play. I thought we were entering a period where we were old, had nothing worldy in the pipes coming up, and that those guys be dealt at their peaks was a smart move. Keepign them I felt only would have us finishing a series of 3rd or fourth place finishes and then being left empty handed when their time was up.

 

Thats basically what we'll see. If the goal here is to put together teams that can win the mediocre AL central then bow out to the East or West, fine. If the goal is to win, then sometimes you need to restructure things. In the world of baseball, one of the best ways to do that is by spending and developing. We spend moderately well but we have to because we don't develop. We won't ever be the Yankees but we could and should be the Angels. Who have a deep farm and then spend 100 mil. If we do that - then we wouldn't need to worry about having to sell fan favorites off because theyre the only way we can rebuild.

 

Thats all. Nothing against mark or paulie. I love them both just found it in better judgement to have sold high on them.

[caulfield12]

The problem here is the things you are saying can be applied to anything. What if we just dealt with the fact our system is weak and spent more money in drafts or internationally. Maybe developing a better scouting department for starters. Or drafting guys who normally fall due to their contract size or signability concerns instead of selecting these overly projectable average arms every year. Only time we take risks are for these stupid toolsy outfielders. Apply that sense to some pitchers from time to time and we may end up an ace in the system for a change and not having to deal for them. Something like a guy like Porcello falling past us to the Tigers comes to mind immediately. That ties into another subject which is the whole white sox vs boras nonsense.

 

Anyways, fact is, most of those guys are good in our eyes because they are "our guys". Before Beckham, we didn't have a top 10 pick since Frank. Thats a long time to not get the top-tier talent because if you aren't buying it later in the draft, then you have to do well at scouting and get lucky to land it after that. Which we don't do.

 

If you can't scout well, then you cant draft well. If we don't draft well, who cares who we have trying to develop them. If we don't develop them then why not try to deal them for something. Which is where we sit today.

 

Horrible farm system. We can't apply what ifs. Things need to change down there and then it won't matter who we trade or whats left. It can only help in every aspect for this organization. Financially, talent wise, on the trade fronts, call-ups for injury, etc. Doesnt meant we need to lose 100 games for five straight years. Just need to wake up.

 

 

I know Dick Allen will argue this one (the fact that we have less money than he thinks to spend), but the priority for the White Sox has always been producing a winning or competitive major league team on a year-by-year basis.

 

Because of that, a higher percentage of available resources have gone into the major league team than with other organizations.

 

I could cite Chris Young, Chris Carter, Ryan Sweeney, Frank Francisco, Gio Gonzalez, Brandon Allen, Faustino De Los Santos, Carter, Brandon McCarthy, etc. It's not like our system has been totally bereft of prospects, it's simply that we have prioritized the short term over the long term.

 

If KW doesn't make a move in the next weeks, it will be the first time which this has happened in recent memory. So perhaps this is all a case of premature evaluation, until we see who KW ends up with. If you're a Twins fan, aren't you even MORE upset that they haven't acquired Lee, Haren or Oswalt, because, when healthy, they have a potentially dominant offense, yes? And they have the prospects to make those moves, yet they are holding back. Perhaps they want to keep Ramos in case they decide to make Mauer a 3B or DH to save all the wear and tear on his body. Maybe they look out and see the lack of athleticism at the corners and feel they need to hold onto Hicks and Revere.

 

This has always been the biggest problem...we haven't had the luxury of going with a rebuild like we did in the late 80's and late 90's. Every organization goes through this, except for teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Cardinals, Twins, etc. Heck, look how long it has taken for the Braves to get back to the top of their division after struggling for the last 2-3 seasons.

 

The problem is that there's perhaps no fanbase in baseball that's as "winning percentage" driven as the White Sox. Maybe everyone is right, we should have rebuilt after 2007. Except our division being winnable each season is also a curse. It prevents KW from going into that full rebuilding mode 100%, knowing that if the attendance slides, his resources to work with will correspondingly slide, and then he's left with a self-fulfilling prophecy of taking 3-5 years to turn the organization around completely. I'm not sure he has the patience to do that, he's still too competitive, but you're THEORETICALLY seeing his balancing of 2010 with future needs and I still wouldn't be shocked if he did nothing at all and hoped for a return in performance/health from all those guys like Mitchell, Thompson, Morel, Phegley, etc.

 

There's no doubt that teams like the Astros held onto their stars too long, each year feeling they had one last run in them.

 

The thing is, if you go back to 1990 or 1993 or pretty much any time period over the last 20 years, the White Sox will end up with one of the 3-7 best winning percentages compared to all the other teams in baseball, and the three others will always be the Red Sox, Yankees and Braves.

 

A healthy Carlos Quentin, the Gordon Beckham of most of 2009 and a dangerous Mark Teahen instead of Kotsay takes care of 90% of our problems. Still, we're relying heavily on both Garcia and Hudson down the stretch, just as Minnesota is doing with Duensing/Slowey/Baker.

Edited July 26, 2010 by caulfield12

[soxfan3530]

Well this thread is understandable.I havent been following that close but the last time i checked we were like 10 games out of first and would need to do something crazy like go 31-11 over the past six weeks or so to even be in contention whatsover. I mean when you are that far out and then play that incredible, it would be hard to justify wanting the gm and manager fired ASAP....(checks current standings)..... wow.....