White Sox Acquire Manny Ramirez

[iamshack]

Well of course, no one really knows when he started. That's part of the problem.

Wow. Both of you are really stretching things here. Do you even watch the guy hit? This is absolutely ridiculous. Guy has a 16 year career, no major injuries, and you guys are going to imply he has been a user his entire career. Ok.

[Balta1701]

His salary says otherwise.

His salary says otherwise? Am I the only one that remembers how messy that negotiation was for ManRam? How he was talking about retiring because no one wanted to pay him the kind of money he deserved? How he basically held out from the Dodgers camp for a couple weeks to try to get the money, otherwise he wasn't coming at all?

[Balta1701]

Wow. Both of you are really stretching things here. Do you even watch the guy hit? This is absolutely ridiculous. Guy has a 16 year career, no major injuries, and you guys are going to imply he has been a user his entire career. Ok.

You realize...Steroids help you recover from minor injuries right?

 

He may not have used his entire career. But if you're a GM...you don't offer him anything more than you would offer if he had used his own career...because it's entirely believable that he did.

[iamshack]

His salary says otherwise? Am I the only one that remembers how messy that negotiation was for ManRam? How he was talking about retiring because no one wanted to pay him the kind of money he deserved? How he basically held out from the Dodgers camp for a couple weeks to try to get the money, otherwise he wasn't coming at all?

Yes. He is one of the most highly paid players in baseball, and has been for most of his post-arb career, because he produces at an elite level. If he were this huge slacker who didn't produce, he wouldn't be paid the way he is.

[maki]

If it's a 1 year deal as a DH only...and it's only like $2 million...and Manram actually signs the deal rather than just outright retiring...I think I could stomach that. I'd still reserve the right to chant "Steroids" every time he's up.

Not gonna happen, I don't think Manny has the ability to play like he cares for less than $10mn/yr. He has zero interest in staying in the game just to get another ring or be on a contender. He's pretty much unsignable next year. He's not worth 10mn per year and there's about a 10% shot he tries for more than half a season if he gets less. With each year he also has that much less incentive to try for another contract when it's probably not coming.

 

True. And if he's stubborn about it, he'll be watching baseball in 2011, much like Jermaine Dye did in 2010.

That bothered JD substantially more than it's going to bother Manny.

[tonyho7476]

Wow. Both of you are really stretching things here. Do you even watch the guy hit? This is absolutely ridiculous. Guy has a 16 year career, no major injuries, and you guys are going to imply he has been a user his entire career. Ok.

 

I would be willing to bet, if it could be proven, that he has been using MOST of his career. Same with A-ROD. I think he's been doing it his whole career. You don't play 5 or so great years, and then decide to do the stuff, after you get a huge contract.

 

And for that reason, you can look at both the championships of the Red Sox and say they are majorly tainted, since their main players were probably using at the time...him and Papi.

 

Like a lot of people, I have reset my homerun records to 61 and 755.

 

[iamshack]

You realize...Steroids help you recover from minor injuries right?

 

He may not have used his entire career. But if you're a GM...you don't offer him anything more than you would offer if he had used his own career...because it's entirely believable that he did.

It's entirely believable that Manny Ramirez has used steroids over the course of his entire 16 year career because he once tested positive for a woman's fertility drug. That is a huge, huge leap to make.

[maki]

Like a lot of people, I have reset my homerun records to 61 and 755.

 

Why stop there? Maris was hopped up on greenies all season long.

[LittleHurt05]

Why stop there? Maris was hopped up on greenies all season long.

 

Whoever said Aaron wasn't either?

[iamshack]

I would be willing to bet, if it could be proven, that he has been using MOST of his career. Same with A-ROD. I think he's been doing it his whole career. You don't play 5 or so great years, and then decide to do the stuff, after you get a huge contract.

 

And for that reason, you can look at both the championships of the Red Sox and say they are majorly tainted, since their main players were probably using at the time...him and Papi.

 

Like a lot of people, I have reset my homerun records to 61 and 755.

The decision to use steroids as a baseball player is so much more of a complex decision than you guys are accepting.

[tonyho7476]

Why stop there? Maris was hopped up on greenies all season long.

 

Roids are a whole different animal. Homerun numbers didn't go up like crazy until all the roid stuff started happening. Just not the same.

[Balta1701]

It's entirely believable that Manny Ramirez has used steroids over the course of his entire 16 year career because he once tested positive for a woman's fertility drug. That is a huge, huge leap to make.

Oh man come on, you're not going to give us the "it was just a fertility drug" nonsense defense are you? Really, that's flat out indefensible.

 

Anyway...I'm also counting the 2003 list which his name has been reported to be on.

[tonyho7476]

The decision to use steroids as a baseball player is so much more of a complex decision than you guys are accepting.

 

Personally, I would have done them....money is money. And you can't fall behind everyone else. I get it. I still say that this era is so f***ing tainted by these f***s.

[iamshack]

Oh man come on, you're not going to give us the "it was just a fertility drug" nonsense defense are you? Really, that's flat out indefensible.

 

Anyway...I'm also counting the 2003 list which his name has been reported to be on.

No, I'm arguing that he was caught using a masking agent one time. You're making the implication that therefore, since he was an amazingly talented hitter before that, he must have been using steroids throughout that entire time.

 

That is a f***ing huge implication.

[tonyho7476]

No, I'm arguing that he was caught using a masking agent one time. You're making the implication that therefore, since he was an amazingly talented hitter before that, he must have been using steroids throughout that entire time.

 

That is a f***ing huge implication.

 

Let me ask you this, after Manny got caught, didn't you think...hmm, Manny and Papi are buds, and Papi's numbers went crazy, after meeting up with Manny. That confirmed to me that Manny and Papi are frauds. That's a good 7 years...long time...and odds are that Manny started before that.

[iamshack]

Let me ask you this, after Manny got caught, didn't you think...hmm, Manny and Papi are buds, and Papi's numbers went crazy, after meeting up with Manny. That confirmed to me that Manny and Papi are frauds. That's a good 7 years...long time...and odds are that Manny started before that.

No. I didn't.

 

Let me ask you this. Have you ever watched Manny Ramirez bat? Do you see how fast he recognizes what a pitch is? Do you see how quickly he determines if it will be in the strikezone or not? Do you notice how hard he hits the ball to all fields?

 

He is insanely talented. In ways that steroids don't have anything to do with.

 

Yes, I think he probably used steroids. Yes, they probably inflated his already considerable talents. Do I think he has used his entire career? Hell no.

[Balta1701]

No, I'm arguing that he was caught using a masking agent one time. You're making the implication that therefore, since he was an amazingly talented hitter before that, he must have been using steroids throughout that entire time.

 

That is a f***ing huge implication.

I'm certainly saying it's plausible that he was using the entire time.

 

You could make the case to me in reply that he only started using once he went to the Dodgers because he was trying to extend his career and although I'd be skeptical I'd have to admit you had a point...if it wasn't for 1 piece of data...the reported 2003 positive test.

 

Yes, I only have 2 examples...but they're 2 separate examples 6 years apart. So either Manny Ramirez has been the unluckiest steroid abuser in history such that every time he's juiced he's immediately been tested and caught, or there is a significant history there covering the better part of at least 1 decade.

 

If you're a GM and you're thinking about signing him next year, you have to keep in your mind the strong possibility that he's been juicing for years and is now officially off the stuff. If you offer him $5 million...you better get some sort of insurance on it, or do something else to protect yourself, because it's entirely plausible that his body is as used up as it can be.

[BigSqwert]

So what's the absolute earliest day we could see him in a Sox uniform if everything worked out perfectly?

[iamshack]

I'm certainly saying it's plausible that he was using the entire time.

 

You could make the case to me in reply that he only started using once he went to the Dodgers because he was trying to extend his career and although I'd be skeptical I'd have to admit you had a point...if it wasn't for 1 piece of data...the reported 2003 positive test.

 

Yes, I only have 2 examples...but they're 2 separate examples 6 years apart. So either Manny Ramirez has been the unluckiest steroid abuser in history such that every time he's juiced he's immediately been tested and caught, or there is a significant history there covering the better part of at least 1 decade.

 

If you're a GM and you're thinking about signing him next year, you have to keep in your mind the strong possibility that he's been juicing for years and is now officially off the stuff. If you offer him $5 million...you better get some sort of insurance on it, or do something else to protect yourself, because it's entirely plausible that his body is as used up as it can be.

I'm willing to admit he may have been using steroids over that period. Personally, I don't really care. I think you're incredibly naive regarding who has used and who has not, and you would probably be heartbroken and want to quit being a fan of baseball if you knew who had used steroids over the last decade.

 

For $5 million, I'll take the risk without thinking twice. Even this year, Manny has posted a .396 OBP. I'm not looking at any data, but my guess is .450-500 ABs at a .396 OBP is worth $5 million easily.

[Balta1701]

So what's the absolute earliest day we could see him in a Sox uniform if everything worked out perfectly?

If the Dodgers put him on waivers today...Saturday.

[BigSqwert]

If the Dodgers put him on waivers today...Saturday.

[iamshack]

So what's the absolute earliest day we could see him in a Sox uniform if everything worked out perfectly?

Probably next Friday.

[iamshack]

If the Dodgers put him on waivers today...Saturday.

You're saying if they dealt him immediately after the waiver period expired?

[tonyho7476]

No. I didn't.

 

Let me ask you this. Have you ever watched Manny Ramirez bat? Do you see how fast he recognizes what a pitch is? Do you see how quickly he determines if it will be in the strikezone or not? Do you notice how hard he hits the ball to all fields?

 

He is insanely talented. In ways that steroids don't have anything to do with.

 

Yes, I think he probably used steroids. Yes, they probably inflated his already considerable talents. Do I think he has used his entire career? Hell no.

 

Canseco made it pretty clear in his book how well steroids improved his ability to see the ball. Manny is insanely talented, but steroids take stars and superstars to even higher levels.

[Balta1701]

I'm willing to admit he may have been using steroids over that period. Personally, I don't really care. I think you're incredibly naive regarding who has used and who has not, and you would probably be heartbroken and want to quit being a fan of baseball if you knew who had used steroids over the last decade.

 

For $5 million, I'll take the risk without thinking twice. Even this year, Manny has posted a .396 OBP. I'm not looking at any data, but my guess is .450-500 ABs at a .396 OBP is worth $5 million easily.

One thing I will say is that the Sox might be a good fit for him next year in 1 particular sense...in that if he does get hurt, the Sox have several versatile options that could be plugged in as a replacement. Assuming the Sox spend some money this offseason to keep a backup OF of the quality of Jones or better on their roster...if you plug Manny in to the DH spot and expect 400 PA's from him, and he gives you 100, with Quentin, Teahen, and Viciedo still on the roster as options, that's a potential way to cover up for a ManRam injury