Daniel Hudson watch thread

[sircaffey]

Anyway, all I'm saying is...if I'm giving up 6 years of a back of the rotation guy for 1.5 more expensive years of another guy...I think I'm fully justified in expecting that guy to legitimately be a dominant pitcher, and I'm going to call out if I don't get that.

I don't know why you would be justified in expecting Jackson to be "dominant." The trade value of a dominant SP with a 1.5 years left would be way more than just Daniel Hudson. I think you are justified in expecting Jackson to be a nice upgrade, but expecting domination is ridiculous.

[qwerty]

Depends on how he gives them up. IMO, if you combine innings 1-3 against the Tigers and innings 4-6 against the Orioles, that's a 5 earned run game, all it would take is 1 hit to capitalize and blow it open. If you combine innings 4-7 against the Tigers and 1-3 against the Orioles, that's 7 shutout, 1-2 hit innings, and he's probably good to go for 8+ on that night. I want to see more of that middle-innings guy.

 

If this, if that, good thing the world does not run based off of the word ''if''. You just can't cherry pick innings and combine them to make your case. Whether it be for the good, or the bad. Each game should get critiqued for what it is/was, that one specific game, and nothing more. This is easily one of the oddest posts i have ever seen, as i've never seen a statement like it.

 

So you're saying he only pitches well at Comerica? That's a pitchers paradise, you can't count those

 

(Sorry, I remember the days when that was the knock on G! so I had to pull that one out again).

 

Anyway, all I'm saying is...if I'm giving up 6 years of a back of the rotation guy for 1.5 more expensive years of another guy...I think I'm fully justified in expecting that guy to legitimately be a dominant pitcher, and I'm going to call out if I don't get that.

 

You are not telling me anything i don't already know. I already stated prior to the trade being finalized that the sox are in a lose/lose situation all around with the trade for jackson.

 

This makes the sox severely worse going forward. A trade like this would be a large knock against kenny williams and the upper brass. Trading hudson for a one and a third years for a terrible pitcher? I doubt he ever lives up to the hype he has always had surrounding him. Jackson would just about have to put up cy young winning numbers while we have him retained to even be remotely worth hudson. Reason being? If jackson pitched that well... he is booking with no hesitation. The flip side is he pitches mediocre to bad. If that were to be the case, which is highly likely based on his past, it was no contest, clearly a foolish one sided trade.

 

Say hudson is just a four or five for the next 6 seasons. There is much value in cheap, dirt cheap, back of the rotation type starters. I can't see hudson being worse than a five era type guy, someone who just gives you a chance to win, on a decent basis. Let's say garcia. We have been highly fortunate to have a fifth starter doing what he has done for us, which i have more than seen taken for granted this season. Swinging doors at the back of the rotation generally means a nightmare, the more tightly wound the rotation is, the better chance of success.

 

This would arguably be the worst trade kenny williams has ever made, if it were to happen. I call baloney.

 

I called baloney because i truly thought it were too bad of a deal to be true.

 

Anyway, what i'm trying to say to you is if you keep going the route of expecting complete and utter dominance out of jackson, you are like gonna end up pretty dissatisfied. We have to be realistic with how we evaluate and distinguish what all players are capable of, as all reach different peaks and valleys.

 

All that we can hope for is jackson ends up pitching stellar until his contract is up, and we worry about retaining him down the road. As i said though, if he were to pitch that well, i can't see the brass handing out a 4-5 years deal for the big bucks. It's just not even nearly realistic to believe they would.

 

 

[Soxbadger]

Well your almost never going to get 4x the performance from one player as compared to another. Even the best and worst pitchers generally only have a difference of 3-4 earned runs a game. No way will Jackson put up a 1.0 era while Hudson has a 4, so if that is what your criteria is, there will be no way Jackson can ever meet those standards.

 

Conversely if the criteria is:

 

Did we get a better player?

 

Then the trade is a win. Hopefully for Hudson something clicked after being traded and he can become a quality major league pitcher. But prior to the trade (and that is all that matters when evaluating what the Sox could have gotten), Hudson was not exactly a piece people were banging down the door for. Nationals didnt really want him, Arizona liked Jackson more (otherwise they would have jumped all over a Hudson/Jackson swap) and my guess is that Kenny tried numerous other teams.

 

The idea of parsing starts to reach some sort of conclusion is strange.

 

Im happy the Sox have Jackson. If they make the playoffs his stuff will give them a chance to win games.

 

Doesnt mean he wont get hit some days or innings, just he has the ability to dominate.

[whitesoxfan101]

Wanna know why we traded for Jackson? Last nights game showed you. As much as Freddy has given us this year, he simply cannot be completely trusted. Then again, neither can Hudson at this point in his career, and I'm not even sure we were convinced he could be trusted in 2011. So we traded for a guy with great stuff that we thought Coop could work with and get good things out of, and through 2 starts, he has. Lets hope that continues.

[Steve9347]

Hopefully for Hudson something clicked after being traded and he can become a quality major league pitcher.

What clicked was his going to the National League. Edwin Jackson is a more talented and better starting pitcher, and is better for this team going forward.

[Balta1701]

Wanna know why we traded for Jackson? Last nights game showed you. As much as Freddy has given us this year, he simply cannot be completely trusted. Then again, neither can Hudson at this point in his career, and I'm not even sure we were convinced he could be trusted in 2011. So we traded for a guy with great stuff that we thought Coop could work with and get good things out of, and through 2 starts, he has. Lets hope that continues.

Why exactly do we think Jackson can be trusted?

 

The only answer in your post is "great stuff".

[RME JICO]

What clicked was his going to the National League. Edwin Jackson is a more talented and better starting pitcher, and is better for this team going forward.

Define more talented and a better starting pitcher.

 

Jackson hasn't done anything his entire career in the majors or minors outside of the crazy 200 pitch no-hitter. He is an average pitcher at best, with a 4.69 Lifetime ERA, 1.51 WHIP in the bigs, and with similar numbers in the minors, 4.39 ERA, and 1.38 WHIP.

 

Hudson has already showed more promise with lights out numbers in the minors (2.65 ERA and 0.98 WHIP) and very solid numbers in the bigs so far 3.47 ERA, 1.23 WHIP. There is no way you make this trade straight up like KW did while adding salary and giving up another prospect.

 

This is definitely one trade that KW is going to regret. Also, Jackon's experience and 6.10 ERA and 1.68 WHIP in September is really going to come in handy in a pennant race.

[Quin]

Define more talented and a better starting pitcher.

 

Jackson hasn't done anything his entire career in the majors or minors outside of the crazy 200 pitch no-hitter. He is an average pitcher at best, with a 4.69 Lifetime ERA, 1.51 WHIP in the bigs, and with similar numbers in the minors, 4.39 ERA, and 1.38 WHIP.

Hudson has already showed more promise with lights out numbers in the minors (2.65 ERA and 0.98 WHIP) and very solid numbers in the bigs so far 3.47 ERA, 1.23 WHIP. There is no way you make this trade straight up like KW did while adding salary and giving up another prospect.

 

This is definitely one trade that KW is going to regret. Also, Jackon's experience and 6.10 ERA and 1.68 WHIP in September is really going to come in handy in a pennant race.

 

While I thought it was an overpay, Jackson has pitched for 7 years and was an All-Star. To say he hasn't done anything simply isn't fair.

[RME JICO]

While I thought it was an overpay, Jackson has pitched for 7 years and was an All-Star. To say he hasn't done anything simply isn't fair.

Just pitching for 7 years hardly constitutes anything. You could also say he has been on 5 teams in 7 years. Also, the All-Star nod was crazy in 2009, he was good, but not an All-Star. There were numerous more deserving players, and All-Star appearances, like Gold-Gloves are not really an indication of true talent or performance.

 

I don't mind that the Sox traded for him, but there is no way you give up Hudson AND another prospect while adding salary. That is just fail anyway you look at it. Arizona got over big time.

 

At his age, equivalent pitchers are Kyle Lohse and others like the infamous Daniel Cabrera. Not really good company.

Edited August 12, 2010 by RME JICO

[SoxAce]

Also, the All-Star nod was crazy in 2009, he was good, but not an All-Star.

 

I hated the trade too, but now your talking as crazy as Balta here. I don't think you realize how good his first half was. 2.52 era, 1.06 whip, .223 oba, not to mention pitched better AWAY than he did at home that first half. (and finished that way as well. He might have been lucky looking at his FIP and his BABIP when the season ended overall, but thats beside the point) He actually had much better numbers overall than his all-star teammate Justin Verlander. (besides wins, strikeouts... the standard numbers)

 

The only snubs that should have been there (I'm talking pitchers) were Kevin Millwood and Jered Weaver. Somehow guys like Brian Fuentes and Tim Wakefield (Tim f***ing Wakefield) made that team instead of them. Same as hitters getting snubbed from other hitters. (Pedroia over Kinsler, Hamilton over Lind OR Dye etc..)

Edited August 12, 2010 by J.Reedfan8

[Quin]

Just pitching for 7 years hardly constitutes anything. You could also say he has been on 5 teams in 7 years. Also, the All-Star nod was crazy in 2009, he was good, but not an All-Star. There were numerous more deserving players, and All-Star appearances, like Gold-Gloves are not really an indication of true talent or performance.

 

I don't mind that the Sox traded for him, but there is no way you give up Hudson AND another prospect while adding salary. That is just fail anyway you look at it. Arizona got over big time.

 

At his age, equivalent pitchers are Kyle Lohse and others like the infamous Daniel Cabrera. Not really good company.

 

Who Coop couldn't fix.

 

So far, it looks like he's helped Jackson.

 

Edit: Also, a guy I know who works for the Sox said around the office it was thought that Hudson was a fourth starter at best and had a lot to prove. Take that for what it's worth, because I do think Hudson will be a good #2 or #3 in the NL

Edited August 12, 2010 by Quinarvy

[RME JICO]

I hated the trade too, but now your talking as crazy as Balta here. I don't think you realize how good his first half was. 2.52 era, 1.06 whip, .223 oba, not to mention pitched better AWAY than he did at home that first half. (and finished that way as well. He might have been lucky looking at his FIP and his BABIP when the season ended overall, but thats beside the point) He actually had much better numbers overall than his all-star teammate Justin Verlander. (besides wins, strikeouts... the standard numbers)

 

The only snubs that should have been there (I'm talking pitchers) were Kevin Millwood and Jered Weaver. Somehow guys like Brian Fuentes and Tim Wakefield (Tim f***ing Wakefield) made that team instead of them. Same as hitters getting snubbed from other hitters. (Pedroia over Kinsler, Hamilton over Lind OR Dye etc..)

All-star nods are crapshoots though. He did have a very solid first half, and if he produces similar numbers for the Sox here on out, then I have no problem with the trade. However, that is one good half year out of seven?

[SoxAce]

He did have a very solid first half, and if he produces similar numbers for the Sox here on out, then I have no problem with the trade. However, that is one good half year out of seven?

 

That wasn't the point. And you are pretty much arguing with yourself here. I think about 95% of the posters who posted in this thread weren't fans of the trade neither. Now as qwerty said (I believe it was him) in another thread, if he pitches like Cy Young for the next 1.5 years he is here (or MIGHT be here) or pretty much like how he's been pitching now (or in that first half last year), it'll be much easier to stomach the deal. (or if Hudson is just terrible in the NL/arm falls off, whatever)

[RME JICO]

Who Coop couldn't fix.

 

So far, it looks like he's helped Jackson.

 

Edit: Also, a guy I know who works for the Sox said around the office it was thought that Hudson was a fourth starter at best and had a lot to prove. Take that for what it's worth, because I do think Hudson will be a good #2 or #3 in the NL

 

That is true, and Hudson will probably come down a little from his past few starts while benefiting from pitching in the NL, but still, looking at this trade based on what each team got, it is very hard to justify from the Sox side. This was essentially a salary dump for Arizona and they got a #2-#3 starting pitcher out of it who is 23 and another prospect. That is quite a haul.

 

I just don't see the net gain this season or anytime in the future. The cost/performance is completely in favor of Hudson, at least for the next several years.

[RME JICO]

That wasn't the point. And you are pretty much arguing with yourself here. I think about 95% of the posters who posted in this thread weren't fans of the trade neither. Now as qwerty said (I believe it was him) in another thread, if he pitches like Cy Young for the next 1.5 years he is here (or MIGHT be here) or pretty much like how he's been pitching now (or in that first half last year), it'll be much easier to stomach the deal. (or if Hudson is just terrible in the NL/arm falls off, whatever)

Yeah I got it. I was just replying to Steve's post about Jackson being more talented and a better starting pitcher. There is nothing to suggest that he is a better pitcher than Hudson at this point. Hudson straight up had more value than Jackson.

[southsider2k5]

Who Coop couldn't fix.

 

So far, it looks like he's helped Jackson.

 

Edit: Also, a guy I know who works for the Sox said around the office it was thought that Hudson was a fourth starter at best and had a lot to prove. Take that for what it's worth, because I do think Hudson will be a good #2 or #3 in the NL

 

To be fair, Cabrera's arm isn't the same anymore.

[Milkman delivers]

I am the last guy you would call a blind loyalist, but I trust any move this team makes when it comes to picking up/trading away pitchers.

[whitesoxfan101]

Why exactly do we think Jackson can be trusted?

 

The only answer in your post is "great stuff".

 

He's young (for all the age talk, Hudson is only 3 and a half years younger than Jackson), has vastly better stuff than the man we gave up to get him, and has show himself capable of being a good pitcher in our league before. The issue with this trade is the money each man costs, and how long each is under team control, and I can't defend that from our perspective obviously. But I think man for man, it's not unrealistic at all to think this trade will work out for us. And yes, Hudson has pitched 3 very good games for them, but Jackson has pitched 2 for us. Maybe it'll be a trade that helps both sides.

[iamshack]

What about postseason wins?

 

I'm not certain what a postseason rotation would be for us, but I would hope Kenny and Ozzie would have the stones to make Edwin a #4 and put Freddy in the bullpen. Not sure if this will happen, my guess is it will be sort of a controversy should we get to that point, but as they say, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

But for arguments sake, would 2 postseason victories by Jackson make the trade more tolerable? Three?

 

I don't know that anyone is ever going to convince Balta or Qwerty or some of the other number crunchers we have here that this trade worked out for the White Sox in the end, but if that is the case, where have those posters been on Freddy? As far as I'm concerned Balta should be proclaiming to everyone who will listen that Freddy is Kenny's shining moment this year...and yet all I see is how devastatingly awful trading Hudson away was.

 

But should we win a playoff series and Edwin pitches well in the postseason, was the trade worth it then? What about two playoff series? What about a World Series victory? How are postseason victories by a pitcher, or World Series titles earned with the help of a guy like Jackson, factored into this discussion?

[Balta1701]

shack, if Jackson wins 2 postseason games for us this season...yes, then it's worth it. That guarantees us at least an ALCS run (he wouldn't be likely to get 2 wins in a 5 game series and have the team lose). I'd call that a fair return on Hudson.

[southsider2k5]

What about postseason wins?

 

I'm not certain what a postseason rotation would be for us, but I would hope Kenny and Ozzie would have the stones to make Edwin a #4 and put Freddy in the bullpen. Not sure if this will happen, my guess is it will be sort of a controversy should we get to that point, but as they say, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

But for arguments sake, would 2 postseason victories by Jackson make the trade more tolerable? Three?

 

I don't know that anyone is ever going to convince Balta or Qwerty or some of the other number crunchers we have here that this trade worked out for the White Sox in the end, but if that is the case, where have those posters been on Freddy? As far as I'm concerned Balta should be proclaiming to everyone who will listen that Freddy is Kenny's shining moment this year...and yet all I see is how devastatingly awful trading Hudson away was.

 

But should we win a playoff series and Edwin pitches well in the postseason, was the trade worth it then? What about two playoff series? What about a World Series victory? How are postseason victories by a pitcher, or World Series titles earned with the help of a guy like Jackson, factored into this discussion?

 

Is there any doubt about this?

[whitesoxfan101]

Yeah I think the plan is hope Freddy can play the El Duque of 2005 role in the bullpen if we make the playoffs (veteran starter with playoff experience turned relief pitcher who doesn't have the same stuff he once did, but still has those giant balls you need in October).

[iamshack]

shack, if Jackson wins 2 postseason games for us this season...yes, then it's worth it. That guarantees us at least an ALCS run (he wouldn't be likely to get 2 wins in a 5 game series and have the team lose). I'd call that a fair return on Hudson.

Interesting.

 

 

[iamshack]

Is there any doubt about this?

I'm just concerned because of Ozzie's relationship with Freddy and possibly a level of overconfidence in his friend.

[SoxFan1]

I'm just concerned because of Ozzie's relationship with Freddy and possibly a level of overconfidence in his son-in-law.

Fixed.