Daniel Hudson watch thread

[gatnom]

Including Jackson, we are going to have about $85 million locked up without signing/re-signing a first baseman, catcher, designated hitter, righty set-up man, closer, second lefty, or bench players. So yeah, I'd say it was a bad trade, even without the hindsight of being able to see how far back of the Twins we will fall. Our payroll for 2010 was $99.575 million when you take into account the money we received from other clubs, and it will probably continue to fall as it has been. So, by my estimate we need to fill 5 crucial spots (one of which was our best offensive player) along with 5 or so negligible spots with $15 million, and in order to do that KW is probably going to have to trade Danks or Floyd while giving Chris Sale that final spot in the rotation (something that he wouldn't give Dan Hudson) since we have pretty much no other starting pitching near the majors.

 

All in all, that's why I'm not too optimistic about next year. I think a lot of people get wrapped up in how we will nearly win 90 games even with Peavy hurt, a nonexistent team the first month or two, etc. while completely forgetting that the Twins basically lost their equivalent of Paul Konerko and Matt Thornton for the vast majority of the season and will STILL nearly win 100 games if they stay at their current pace. I'm not going to say we won't compete with Twins, but these realities are definitely keeping my optimism in check.

[Jerksticks]

EJax also showed he can lit up as well as anyone else, in the "weak" NL nonetheless.

 

Agree. I understand your school of thought on why the trade doesn't make sense. It seems you won't acknowledge old school guys like Jerry's line of thinking. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but it has its place.

[bigruss]

Agree. I understand your school of thought on why the trade doesn't make sense. It seems you won't acknowledge old school guys like Jerry's line of thinking. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but it has its place.

Because that old school train of thought leads us to having no flexibility. We now have a $54 million rotation with no ready replacements (IMO Sale isnt ready for a full season of starting, he needs to get stretched out for a year) while having little to no flexibility in terms of adding or keeping talent because of our payroll. We also dont have many young players ready to step in and contribute at the levels we would need them to.

 

Suddenly that strength that was our pitching rotation turns into a burden because you flat out cannot afford them, and then if you trade one you have to plug in Sale sooner than desired or have a huge hole.

[fathom]

Another absolutely dominating start for Hudson. He's easily one of the best young pitchers in baseball in the NL now. Next time you want to make a trade KW...please don't!

[knightni]

Another absolutely dominating start for Hudson. He's easily one of the best young pitchers in baseball in the NL now. Next time you want to make a trade KW...please don't!

If the whole purpose of this thread is continual b****ing about KW, I will close it.

 

Sorry, I'm not intentionally singling you out, fathom. Your post is just the most recent.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Another absolutely dominating start for Hudson. He's easily one of the best young pitchers in baseball in the NL now. Next time you want to make a trade KW...please don't!

 

That's like telling Kirstie Alley to skip the second helping. But yea, we're talking 11 straight really good to dominant starts. You figure a full-time starter (health being key) will make at least 30 starts in a season. So that's over a third of a typical season starts wise for Hudson. Think it's safe to say he's the real deal and Kenny and Co. made a gross mis-evaluation (much like thinking Brian Anderson was an actual baseball player).

[fathom]

If the whole purpose of this thread is continual b****ing about KW, I will close it.

 

Sorry, I'm not intentionally singling you out, fathom. Your post is just the most recent.

 

No problem knight, I totally understand. I expect this trade and the negative ramifications it will have on our payroll next season to be even more in the spotlight if Konerko leaves and then Jackson is turned around and traded at the deadline next year.

[SoxAce]

Another absolutely dominating start for Hudson. He's easily one of the best young pitchers in baseball in the NL now. Next time you want to make a trade KW...please don't!

 

Said it once before, he is the one guy I know were going to regret giving up, and I don't usually fall in love with prospects too often. (might "like" some, but "love" is another story )

[LittleHurt05]

That's like telling Kirstie Alley to skip the second helping. But yea, we're talking 11 straight really good to dominant starts. You figure a full-time starter (health being key) will make at least 30 starts in a season. So that's over a third of a typical season starts wise for Hudson. Think it's safe to say he's the real deal and Kenny and Co. made a gross mis-evaluation (much like thinking Brian Anderson was an actual baseball player).

 

Let's discount the 6.32 ERA Hudson put up for the Sox in the AL when they were fighting for a playoff spot. I won't argue about the fact that Hudson will be due like 8-10 million over the next 6 years, while Jackson is due that much in 2011, that makes it a bad move. But plenty of pitchers have showed up to the majors with a hot streak, then been figured out and hit hard, which could happen to Hudson too, hes only 16 starts in. Its funny how everyone around here complains about how bad the Sox system is, but then when someone gets traded, they just get upset about how he good that player is and he should not have been traded.

[witesoxfan]

Let's discount the 6.32 ERA Hudson put up for the Sox in the AL when they were fighting for a playoff spot. I won't argue about the fact that Hudson will be due like 8-10 million over the next 6 years, while Jackson is due that much in 2011, that makes it a bad move. But plenty of pitchers have showed up to the majors with a hot streak, then been figured out and hit hard, which could happen to Hudson too, hes only 16 starts in. Its funny how everyone around here complains about how bad the Sox system is, but then when someone gets traded, they just get upset about how he good that player is and he should not have been traded.

 

Which is a better sample size...4 starts straight out of the minors, or 11 starts after getting his feet wet?

 

Hudson's a good pitcher, and all the Sox can do right now is hope that Edwin Jackson is better.

[LittleHurt05]

Which is a better sample size...4 starts straight out of the minors, or 11 starts after getting his feet wet?

 

Hudson's a good pitcher, and all the Sox can do right now is hope that Edwin Jackson is better.

 

I dont think it comes to down to that, I think it comes down to whether or not EJax is a stud in 2011 and helps lead the Sox to the playoffs. Thats what they got him for and gave up Hudson and his six years of cheap salary. I don't think Hudson is gonna keep up the numbers he has in ARI, but for the little $$$$ he is making, Jackson has to help the Sox make the playoffs, or its a major fail.

 

Hudson failed in his brief audition as 5th starter when Jake went down, so KW had to make a move. However, finding a guy who is due 8.5 mil and will be a free agent is a ballsy move that he will have to answer to if/when it doesnt work ou

[Jordan4life_2007]

Let's discount the 6.32 ERA Hudson put up for the Sox in the AL when they were fighting for a playoff spot. I won't argue about the fact that Hudson will be due like 8-10 million over the next 6 years, while Jackson is due that much in 2011, that makes it a bad move. But plenty of pitchers have showed up to the majors with a hot streak, then been figured out and hit hard, which could happen to Hudson too, hes only 16 starts in. Its funny how everyone around here complains about how bad the Sox system is, but then when someone gets traded, they just get upset about how he good that player is and he should not have been traded.

 

You need to go back to the Jackson/Hudson original trade thread. I hated this trade from day 1. And I'm not saying Hudson is CY yet. But a 7-1, 1.69 ERA in 11 starts is a little more than a simple hot streak. And the fact that the system is so bad is one of the reasons (the main one being the financial aspect) that this trade was so awful. When you're up against the wall financially, you're not in any position to trade one of the few valuable, and more importantly cheap, assets you have for mediocrity.

[LittleHurt05]

You need to go back to the Jackson/Hudson original trade thread. I hated this trade from day 1. And I'm not saying Hudson is CY yet. But a 7-1, 1.69 ERA in 11 starts is a little more than a simple hot streak. And the fact that the system is so bad is one of the reasons (the main one being the financial aspect) that this trade was so awful. When you're up against the wall financially, you're not in any position to trade one of the few valuable, and more importantly cheap, assets you have for mediocrity.

 

I agree with what you are saying. I dont follow the minor leagues much, but when the trade was made, I questioned it because of the same financial obligations. That being said, I don't remember anyone thinking Hudson would be this good, most were more upset about losing his low salary, not because of his pitching dominance and the Sox minor league system was still being questioned when he was here.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I agree with what you are saying. I dont follow the minor leagues much, but when the trade was made, I questioned it because of the same financial obligations. That being said, I don't remember anyone thinking Hudson would be this good, most were more upset about losing his low salary, not because of his pitching dominance and the Sox minor league system was still being questioned when he was here.

 

The thing is, Hudson wouldn't have to be "this" good this year or any other year to be a valuable cog for the Sox. I personally don't feel vindicated because he's dominated since the trade. Let's say ultimately he tops out as a 3-4 starter type. That's still extremely valuable considering his cost. We don't have to have 5 numbers 1 starters. If (big if) Jackson dominates next year, then you'll REALLY have to pay him for 2012 and beyond. And we all know who his agent is. We're already stuck with Peavy, who let's face it, will be a major injury risk from this point on, Buehrle is a FA at the end of next year and we still have to lock Danks up. So yeah, there was just not a lot to like about this trade. And the fact that we stumbled miserably down the stretch and won't even sniff the Twins makes this trade an epic fail.

[SoxAce]

Sox really have to extend Jackson this off-season to make the deal alittle easier to stomach for some of us. A couple years extended is better than seeing a guy who is more than likely one and done. Good luck with that KW, maybe Boras can see what a great job we did with his client Jones (stuck by him even when he was sucking early on minus the D) that he'll be alittle lenient towards us.........

[LittleHurt05]

The thing is, Hudson wouldn't have to be "this" good this year or any other year to be a valuable cog for the Sox. I personally don't feel vindicated because he's dominated since the trade. Let's say ultimately he tops out as a 3-4 starter type. That's still extremely valuable considering his cost. We don't have to have 5 numbers 1 starters. If (big if) Jackson dominates next year, then you'll REALLY have to pay him for 2012 and beyond. And we all know who his agent is. We're already stuck with Peavy, who let's face it, will be a major injury risk from this point on, Buehrle is a FA at the end of next year and we still have to lock Danks up. So yeah, there was just not a lot to like about this trade. And the fact that we stumbled miserably down the stretch and won't even sniff the Twins makes this trade an epic fail.

 

I do agree with what you are saying. I was happy with the trade until I found out EJax was making 8.5 in 2011 then was a FA. Money is money and the Sox are not the Yankees or Red Sox. So if he doesnt take the Sox to the playoffs in 2011 then it is a major fail. If it prevents the Sox from resigning Danks to a long contract then it becomes even worse.

 

I am just commenting on all the people that thought the Sox system was s*** and had no real prospects, then all of a sudden when Hudson goes to Arizona, people get upset at KW for trading away prospects.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

It seemed obvious when Hudson was a White Sox that if he could throw strikes he'd be a pretty good pitcher. He's only walked 3 more hitters in AZ than he did in 15 innings with the White Sox. There was a radio interview with him and he said they do things in AZ they don't do in Chicago. I do know if he was a hitter who struggled with the White Sox but had 1/3 of a season with this kind of success with another team, Greg Walker would be to blame. Why no Cooper bashing?

 

As to the trade, Jackson has been pretty good. It really didn't make a difference this year. Next year will be key. If Hudson can be anywhere near as effective as he's been thus far, he'll win the Cy Young.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

It seemed obvious when Hudson was a White Sox that if he could throw strikes he'd be a pretty good pitcher. He's only walked 3 more hitters in AZ than he did in 15 innings with the White Sox. There was a radio interview with him and he said they do things in AZ they don't do in Chicago. I do know if he was a hitter who struggled with the White Sox but had 1/3 of a season with this kind of success with another team, Greg Walker would be to blame. Why no Cooper bashing?

 

As to the trade, Jackson has been pretty good. It really didn't make a difference this year. Next year will be key. If Hudson can be anywhere near as effective as he's been thus far, he'll win the Cy Young.

 

You really hate Don Cooper.

[Dick Allen]

You really hate Don Cooper.

No. In fact, I've never really been serious about firing Cooper once. Its more of my defense for Greg Walker. I just find it odd that no one ever mentions Cooper when the pitching falls apart, but if guys don't hit, its always on Walker. When the pitching is great, Cooper is the greatest. When the hitting is great, it has nothing to do with Walker. Just last week, Walker was being blamed for Morel, a rookie, swinging at pitches in the dirt. Almost like Walker told him to go up there and swing at everything, and Morel like a robot listening.

 

The only hitter I can remember having a lot more success after he left the White Sox than he did while a White Sox is Swisher, and he didn't work with Walker at all. Hudson looks like a HOFer right now.

[southsider2k5]

No. In fact, I've never really been serious about firing Cooper once. Its more of my defense for Greg Walker. I just find it odd that no one ever mentions Cooper when the pitching falls apart, but if guys don't hit, its always on Walker. When the pitching is great, Cooper is the greatest. When the hitting is great, it has nothing to do with Walker. Just last week, Walker was being blamed for Morel, a rookie, swinging at pitches in the dirt. Almost like Walker told him to go up there and swing at everything, and Morel like a robot listening.

 

The only hitter I can remember having a lot more success after he left the White Sox than he did while a White Sox is Swisher, and he didn't work with Walker at all. Hudson looks like a HOFer right now.

 

I know. You mention this every single time that a pitcher fails on the Sox. Hence why it looks like you hate the guy.

[Dick Allen]

I know. You mention this every single time that a pitcher fails on the Sox. Hence why it looks like you hate the guy.

Not every time. Just for balance, when the Walker haters come out.

[soxbsbllvr]

It seemed obvious when Hudson was a White Sox that if he could throw strikes he'd be a pretty good pitcher. He's only walked 3 more hitters in AZ than he did in 15 innings with the White Sox. There was a radio interview with him and he said they do things in AZ they don't do in Chicago. I do know if he was a hitter who struggled with the White Sox but had 1/3 of a season with this kind of success with another team, Greg Walker would be to blame. Why no Cooper bashing?

 

As to the trade, Jackson has been pretty good. It really didn't make a difference this year. Next year will be key. If Hudson can be anywhere near as effective as he's been thus far, he'll win the Cy Young.

Yeah, Arizona lets him pitch his way instead of trying to change him. Go figure! Coop said they were trying to slow him down, change his arm slot a little. Arizona just let him be himself, work fast and throw strikes. Sure did work for them! The kid's slider has gotten better and he has even thrown a few curve balls again. No one will ever know if he would have been successful in Chicago but it sure would have been nice to actually see a home-grown pitching prospect stick!

[Balta1701]

Not every time. Just for balance, when the Walker haters come out.

How about you take my technique...rather than Ripping Cooper to balance the Walker Ripping...try praising Walker when things are going well.

[Jeremy]

No. In fact, I've never really been serious about firing Cooper once. Its more of my defense for Greg Walker. I just find it odd that no one ever mentions Cooper when the pitching falls apart, but if guys don't hit, its always on Walker. When the pitching is great, Cooper is the greatest. When the hitting is great, it has nothing to do with Walker. Just last week, Walker was being blamed for Morel, a rookie, swinging at pitches in the dirt. Almost like Walker told him to go up there and swing at everything, and Morel like a robot listening.

 

The only hitter I can remember having a lot more success after he left the White Sox than he did while a White Sox is Swisher, and he didn't work with Walker at all. Hudson looks like a HOFer right now.

 

He's pretty much *always* thrown strikes. His BB/9 was 2.3 heading into this season and then he walked fewer than three batters per nine innings in Charlotte this year. Hawk drove me nuts when Hudson pitched by - as he typically does with young pitchers - disregarding Hudson's minor league track record and assuming he had problems with control and/or challenging hitters because he was walking guys at the major league level. Yeah, his control was abominable on the whole in his three starts with the Sox but the sample size was minuscule. In the long run, you've got to imagine a pitcher will come close to replicating the style - if not the success - he demonstrated in the minors. It would be pretty silly to assume Hudson would walk a lot of guys based solely on those three starts in light of his performance in the minors. Aside from the theory that the Sox base everything on their scouting - which is inevitably often wrong - I don't have much of an explanation for why the team made this trade but I sure hope those three starts for the big league club were taken with the appropriate grain of salt.

[witesoxfan]

He's pretty much *always* thrown strikes. His BB/9 was 2.3 heading into this season and then he walked fewer than three batters per nine innings in Charlotte this year. Hawk drove me nuts when Hudson pitched by - as he typically does with young pitchers - disregarding Hudson's minor league track record and assuming he had problems with control and/or challenging hitters because he was walking guys at the major league level. Yeah, his control was abominable on the whole in his three starts with the Sox but the sample size was minuscule. In the long run, you've got to imagine a pitcher will come close to replicating the style - if not the success - he demonstrated in the minors. It would be pretty silly to assume Hudson would walk a lot of guys based solely on those three starts in light of his performance in the minors. Aside from the theory that the Sox base everything on their scouting - which is inevitably often wrong - I don't have much of an explanation for why the team made this trade but I sure hope those three starts for the big league club were taken with the appropriate grain of salt.

 

I agree with absolutely everything except the bolded. I think their scouting has proven to be more right than wrong, and I think Gavin Floyd is by far the best example of that.

 

Other than that, I agree fully, and the trade did not make sense from a baseball or financial point of view.