The Stealth Elf does it again!

[iamshack]

Yeah that actually is a really good point, I never thought of it that way.

I think it is a lot nicer to say goodbye to the guy in the offseason than it is in the middle of a postseason run like this, as he has been in that clubhouse and traveled with the team for 105 games now.

 

[BigSqwert]

I think it is a lot nicer to say goodbye to the guy in the offseason than it is in the middle of a postseason run like this, as he has been in that clubhouse and traveled with the team for 105 games now.

Carlton Fisk says "hi".

[iamshack]

Carlton Fisk says "hi".

This is not directed at you personally, Sqwert, but is there some way to eradicate this habit people have lately of using that expression?

[Quin]

You were never in that clubhouse, the guys hated Jim Thome for being too nice. Ozzie Guillen doesn't like nice guys, they finish last. Grinders, on the other hand....

 

Need more assholes.

[SoxAce]

Need more assholes.

 

Orlando Cabrera agrees.

[chw42]

Need more assholes.

 

Needz more Mark Kotsays.

[JorgeFabregas]

Orlando Cabrera agrees.

But does he say "hi?" No? What an asshole. He never calls or writes anymore.

[greg775]

Whatever. Jim Thome is the ultimate clubhouse guy and they had no problem dumping him yet they can't find it in them to get rid of a terrible player like Kotsay?! Bizarro world.

 

I just hope Ranger keeps coming around and supporting Kotsay cause I want to see the fireworks. Yes I do.

I wouldn't be against making him a coach, but he probably is going to try to play forever. He's not that old and still gets a hit once in a while, so he wouldn't agree to that.

[PeavyTime]

Lillibeast!!

[Sox72]

But does he say "hi?" No? What an asshole. He never calls or writes anymore.

 

Hahahaha. Phenomenal post.

[lostfan]

Two things:

 

1) Don't be so sure about which came first, the loose feeling in the clubhouse or the winning. While nobody was happy during the first two months, they were still fairly loose down there given the situation.

 

2) You basically make my case that this team will live or die with the pitching. They don't pitch, they won't win. The Sox are definitely not going to outslug the rest of the AL (even if they were to have added a bat at the deadline). It always has, and always will be, about pitching this season. They're gonna score enough to win, but if they don't pitch well, they can forget about it.

I definitely don't argue that point as that's been what most people on here have been saying since before the season started, when we found out we really were going into the season with the rotating DH (of mediocre hitters). It still doesn't excuse Kotsay's regular presence in the lineup. As the occasional PH or substitution, sure, but really in my mind there is no possible way to justify it whatsoever. The fact that the lineup does manage to produce in spite of him doesn't really count when there are better players that can take his place now.

[whitesoxfan101]

The problem I have with Ranger's point is odds. If this team loses this division by 4 or 5 games, then yeah, it's probably because the pitching failed. But I think it's much more likely if we fail that it'll only be by a game or two, and I think it's certainly very feasible that we could pitch well the rest of the way and lose by that margin.

 

At such a point, you have to look at the offense, and the first two people you look at are AJ and Kotsay. Considering AJ at least contributes by calling a good game behind the plate, that means Kotsay is really the first person that is looked at. Divisions aren't often lost by 1 or 2 games because of something as broad as pitching, but moreso something as specific as giving a terrible player at bats when there were clearly better options.

[dyuen]

So Mark Kotsay may cost the White Sox the division all by himself? That's ridiculous.

 

Again, these season will be won or lost on pitching and there's no way around it. If they don't pitch well, they will not win anything.

 

So, the Sox are only in first place by 1 game because of Kotsay? (He doesn't play every day, by the way). And, no, he's not killing them. Killing them would mean that they're losing a bunch of games because of his presence. Are they losing a bunch of games because he's on the team or in the lineup? Well, obviously not because they haven't been losing much at all for the last two months.

 

To reiterate a point from above, they've lost 11 games since June 9th. How many of those losses do you really think were because Kotsay was in the lineup? Honestly. And tell me specifically how he cost them. Because from what I see, most of those losses came because the pitching failed them in some manner or another (blown saves, starters lasting 3 innings, etc). For example, they gave up 17 runs in their 3 losses in the recent trip to MIN, and one of those losses came because of a Jenks meltdown. That's Kotsay's fault how? And you mean to tell me that the loss in SEA was his fault too? That one was another blown save. And I realize he went hitless in that game but so did everybody else except Beckham, Vizquel and PK. Their last loss to OAK? He didn't play in that game...therefore, not his fault.

 

The Sox are hitting pretty well overall in the last two months, even with Kotsay on the team. He isn't costing them anything. I'm sorry, shack, but I just don't by into this idea that one offensive player is going to cost them. If that were the case, then they would be losing a bunch right now, but they aren't. When they were hitting like garbage in April and May, It was because EVERYBODY but 2 guys were hitting like garbage. When 78% of the lineup is not hitting to your liking, you're gonna lose games. When 2 or 3 guys aren't hitting, you're probably still gonna get by if the pitching is good.

 

Don't know what else to tell you.

Ranger this approach you are taking is way too simplistic. Its not black or white that Kotsay will cost the sox a game or he won't. Baseball is typically not that dramatic of a game. Aside from a great or horrible pitching effort, you usually cannot chalk up a win or loss to one player. Its an accumulation of efforts that decides the game. To say that Kotsay isn't costing them anything is absolutely false. Based on your argument it doesn't matter who is in the lineup if either (1) we can't point to a specific at bat that cost the game or (2) everyone else sucks. That is really nonsensical.

 

Your opinion that the Sox will win or lose based on pitching is valid. You say if they don't pitch well they won't win. Obviously that is true, but if they don't hit well they won't win either. If they lose 2-1 or 3-2 is that the pitcher's fault? Why not strive for a better offense to help win those games where the pitching is poor?

 

Also,why are you simply referring to the last two months and the 11 (now 12) losses? Certainly the first two months the Sox lost a ton of games. If Kotsay was a factor in those losses, why don't those count against him? I didn't go back game by game but I can remember a specific game against Texas where he left 7 or 9 guys on base. That loss I attribute directly to him. I am confident there are others.

 

I don't see why you think the Sox should settle for a below average hitter in the lineup, especially at a offensive position like DH. Like I said above, a baseball lineup is an accumulation of hitters. The Sox should have the best possible hitter in the lineup at DH to have the most effect on the runs scored. It is evident that Mark Kotsay is not that player.

[iamshack]

Ranger this approach you are taking is way too simplistic. Its not black or white that Kotsay will cost the sox a game or he won't. Baseball is typically not that dramatic of a game. Aside from a great or horrible pitching effort, you usually cannot chalk up a win or loss to one player. Its an accumulation of efforts that decides the game. To say that Kotsay isn't costing them anything is absolutely false. Based on your argument it doesn't matter who is in the lineup if either (1) we can't point to a specific at bat that cost the game or (2) everyone else sucks. That is really nonsensical.

 

Your opinion that the Sox will win or lose based on pitching is valid. You say if they don't pitch well they won't win. Obviously that is true, but if they don't hit well they won't win either. If they lose 2-1 or 3-2 is that the pitcher's fault? Why not strive for a better offense to help win those games where the pitching is poor?

 

Also,why are you simply referring to the last two months and the 11 (now 12) losses? Certainly the first two months the Sox lost a ton of games. If Kotsay was a factor in those losses, why don't those count against him? I didn't go back game by game but I can remember a specific game against Texas where he left 7 or 9 guys on base. That loss I attribute directly to him. I am confident there are others.

 

I don't see why you think the Sox should settle for a below average hitter in the lineup, especially at a offensive position like DH. Like I said above, a baseball lineup is an accumulation of hitters. The Sox should have the best possible hitter in the lineup at DH to have the most effect on the runs scored. It is evident that Mark Kotsay is not that player.

 

No one seems to want to recognize this, but I think a lot of what Kotsay costs us is not so much the poor ABs he gives us, but the ABs he takes away from guys like Viciedo and Lillibridge, who have been nothing but outstanding for us. And that doesn't even get into the roster spot he is taking away from someone else.

[BigSqwert]

No one seems to want to recognize this, but I think a lot of what Kotsay costs us is not so much the poor ABs he gives us, but the ABs he takes away from guys like Viciedo and Lillibridge, who have been nothing but outstanding for us. And that doesn't even get into the roster spot he is taking away from someone else.

Indeed. Why is this so hard for so many to understand?

[Princess Dye]

Sample size on Viciedo and Lillibridge still small. These two guys were killed mercilessly here but months ago, now they're heroes.

 

Kotsay has had a lot of at-bats and hasnt produced. Easy target. I don't love having him as our left handed bat, but I dont know that putting our bench righties against RHP nonstop is the answer either.

[chw42]

As of this moment, people are just pissed that Kotsay is taking away playing time from Viciedo, as Shack said above.

[chw42]

Sample size on Viciedo and Lillibridge still small. These two guys were killed mercilessly here but months ago, now they're heroes.

 

Kotsay has had a lot of at-bats and hasnt produced. Easy target. I don't love having him as our left handed bat, but I dont know that putting our bench righties against RHP nonstop is the answer either.

 

Who killed Viciedo...?

 

People killing Lillibridge last year was more than warranted, he's a completely different type of player now.

[MattZakrowski]

No one seems to want to recognize this, but I think a lot of what Kotsay costs us is not so much the poor ABs he gives us, but the ABs he takes away from guys like Viciedo and Lillibridge, who have been nothing but outstanding for us. And that doesn't even get into the roster spot he is taking away from someone else.

 

Great point. Kotsay's WAR is -0.8, but his Wins above Viciedo as the DH (WAVDH) would be even worse. Tank isn't as patient as I'd like, but he has the kind of power you can't teach. He's grown on me a lot.

[southsider2k5]

Who killed Viciedo...?

 

People killing Lillibridge last year was more than warranted, he's a completely different type of player now.

 

There was a ton of talk about him being a bust.

[greg775]

Indeed. Why is this so hard for so many to understand?

 

I thought everybody recognized that. It seems this board is 100 percent unanimous Kotsay should be out. That's why it grows old to read about him in every single thread. Kotsay sucks. We know. Oz will still play him and KW will still keep him. We know. People that want Kotsay out usually add that they want Viciedo in.

[chw42]

There was a ton of talk about him being a bust.

 

I think some people were concerned. At least I didn't think he was going to be a bust. You don't become a bust at 21 with only one pro season under your belt.

[lostfan]

There was concern that extended into his slow start this year (he was hot the 2nd half of last year) but I don't recall anyone saying he was outright a bust. If anyone did they'd need their f***ing head examined.

[Balta1701]

There was concern that extended into his slow start this year (he was hot the 2nd half of last year) but I don't recall anyone saying he was outright a bust. If anyone did they'd need their f***ing head examined.

Yeah, there was some genuine talk of him as a bust. If nothing else, he dropped off of everyone else's top prospect list other than true Sox fans before the season because he didn't rock it last year.

[EvilJester99]

The simple truth is this... if you perform people will love you... if you don't then people will b**** and complain.