What set Ozzie off this time?

[caulfield12]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Aksj...sox-guillenrant

 

 

I will say this much. I agree with him about Hispanic players having a rough time in the low minor leagues...having to go from warm weather climates to strange outputs like the Pioneer League or the New York Penn League or the Appalachian, those are going to be huge adjustments, not only because of the weather, but mostly the culture and environment.

 

When I worked for the Augusta GreenJackets, I sometimes ended up taking responsibility to help the Hispanic players get settled into new apartments, find a ride home after the ballgame, simply ordering at McDonald's was an interesting adventure of pointing and trying to translate "hamburguesas" to the cashiers. One time, I think I had about 6-7 Dominican players altogether trying to go through the drive-through...Jose Guillen probably being the most famous future member of that group.

 

One of the differences is obviously that there are fewer Asian players...and many of the ones who are signed are "big league ready," are signed (usually) for larger contracts than the Latin players and already have their own support staff in place (agent/lawyer, PR/media, physical trainer/conditioning and interprepreter/translator). Some of them pay for their own entourages, but usually the club or even the country where the player originates (say Japan or Korea) are part of the process.

 

I'm sure if you reversed the numbers between Hispanic and Asian ballplayers (what is it, something like 35-40% versus 5%?), there would still be a disparity, but not quite so dramatic.

 

1) The ballplayers from Korea/Japan often have learned at least intermediate level English in their own countries in preparation for coming to the US

2) The English level in terms of quality of ESL education is higher in Asia than Latin America (usually, but not always)

3) I'm just guessing, but a number of the Asian players come from wealthier backgrounds and have a higher ability (economically) to pay for support staff

4) Whether it's fair or not, usually the Asian player is the only Japanese/Korean/Taiwanese on his particular team...so it's natural that the club/player/agent want to provide a bit more support...whereas they feel if there are X number of Hispanics, especially from the same country, together, that it's not as much of an issue for the players to assimilate

5) There's a huge amount of income generated showing MLB games in Korea, Taiwan and especially Japan...it's in the best interest of the future of the game to smooth communication channels between the East and West, and, fairly or not, because of income disparities again, MLB doesn't generate nearly as much revenue from the Caribbean, Central and South America (although it would love to figure out how to "monetize" interest in this region)

 

I wonder if Guillen has seen the movie "Swing"?

 

I also wonder if KW enjoys Ozzie's comments after all the success we had with Iguchi and Takatsu? Well, at least signing an Asian player usually comes down to money anyways, so I don't think we'll discourage too many Asian players from signing with the Sox and perhaps Ozzie's "us against the world" rant will inspire some Hispanic kid in the Dominican, Venezuela, Mexico or Central America to sign with the Sox.

Edited August 2, 2010 by caulfield12

[Tannerfan]

I agree with Ozzie, and would suggest the movie "Sugar" to anyone who wants to get an idea of what it's like for these young Latinos to come to the U.S. to play baseball. The movie is fiction, not a documentary, but is truly reality based and made by people who did a lot of research, and know the world they depicted.

[greg775]

I agree with Ozzie, and would suggest the movie "Sugar" to anyone who wants to get an idea of what it's like for these young Latinos to come to the U.S. to play baseball. The movie is fiction, not a documentary, but is truly reality based and made by people who did a lot of research, and know the world they depicted.

 

Caufield, you should consider sending your greatly informative post to Cowley, Gonzalez and maybe the person who wrote the yahoo story. They might want/need your input. Good stuff.

[LVSoxFan]

I agree with Ozzie, and would suggest the movie "Sugar" to anyone who wants to get an idea of what it's like for these young Latinos to come to the U.S. to play baseball. The movie is fiction, not a documentary, but is truly reality based and made by people who did a lot of research, and know the world they depicted.

 

Damn! You beat me to it. It was a real eye-opener, "Sugar."

 

That said, not sure what Ozzie means by comparing Japanese to them. Um, maybe because there's so many Spanish-speaking players around you don't need to hire a translator? That was my first thought.

[Balta1701]

Damn! You beat me to it. It was a real eye-opener, "Sugar."

 

That said, not sure what Ozzie means by comparing Japanese to them. Um, maybe because there's so many Spanish-speaking players around you don't need to hire a translator? That was my first thought.

That was Tim Kurkjian's argument in response...that they didn't need them since there were so many coaches and players who already spoke it.

 

Some of the ESPN guys though are saying even with that, ozzie's still somewhat right...especially on the PED thing.

 

Take the case of star Cleveland Indians rookie catcher Carlos Santana. Although he had been bashing Triple-A pitching for most of this year, one of the reasons Cleveland waited until the middle of the season to call him up to the majors was because the team wanted him to focus on language training.

 

Several times a week, Santana worked with field staff, front-office members, a mental skill coordinator and a cultural coordinator so he could learn the nuances of English that would help him succeed as a catcher in the majors. Often, Santana would role-play several situations to re-enact what he might face after his call-up.

 

"It's a dream of mine to be considered a team leader, and for that to happen I have to be able to interact with everyone," Santana told ESPN The Magazine earlier this year.

 

Yet it stands to reason that Santana received this attention only because he was a top prospect. Santana was worth the investment, unlike, perhaps, many other lesser-regarded players who might never get individualized English training.

Guillen's better argument is in regard to Latinos' use of performance-enhancing drugs.

 

Approximately 80 percent of the minor league players who have tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs this year are from Latin America, a drastically troubling number.

 

To its credit, MLB has significantly ramped up its efforts to curtail PED use in Latin America in recent years.

 

Among the things MLB says it has done to curtail PED use:

 

• Public service announcements starring Manny Acta, Omar Minaya and Guillen airing on Dominican television denouncing PED use.

 

• Presentations during spring training and in the Dominican Summer League about the perils of drug use.

 

• Individual meetings with a drug expert for all newly signed players.

 

Could MLB do more? Certainly. It would be wise for MLB to begin having discussions with prospects when they are 12 to 14 years old, the ages when most of these kids are identified as standout players.

 

Last year, the family of Miguel Jean Sano -- the top Dominican prospect who signed with the Minnesota Twins for $3.15 million -- said the family had not received any advice from MLB about the intricacies of the signing system and would have appreciated some guidance.

[WCSox]

though are saying even with that, ozzie's still somewhat right...especially on the PED thing.

 

As much as I dislike PED use, if I grew up in poverty in South America, I'd be first in line to trash my health and reputation to set my family up with millions.

 

[elrockinMT]

I see they were discussing this issue on ESPN, but I was a at a coffee shop and unable to follow much

[Balta1701]

I see they were discussing this issue on ESPN, but I was a at a coffee shop and unable to follow much

Check the links I posted for some chat. Also go to their homepage for a video where Curt Schilling agrees with Oz.

[Wanne]

I tend to agree with Oz on this. Respect his devotion to his ethinic heritage and all...even though he had absolutely NO CLUE what he was talking about with the Arizona SB1070 law.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Funny to see this get so much national play. Front page of ESPN.com, a top story on SportsCenter, just about every baseball writer out there voicing their opinion.

 

 

Yet our fanbase barely cares. It's in one ear out the other with Ozzie these days. I'll say this, his best attribute is keeping the attention on himself. Should have brought it up over a losing streak.

[caulfield12]

Yeah, when I looked at the ESPN and yahoo sports sites and saw the Ozzie comments as "headline" stories and absolutely nothing here...I was a bit surprised, as there were already 2,000 plus comments at the ESPN story.

 

Over there, it got political really quickly, digressed into a discussion of "English-only" citizenship, immigration policy, reverse racism/discrimination.

 

It's amazing these days how a swelling tide of voices now scream "racism" over any comments relating to ethnicity without even taking a moment to find out the entire story...and this obviously goes for BOTH sides of the political spectrum.

 

 

[lostfan]

I tend to agree with Oz on this. Respect his devotion to his ethinic heritage and all...even though he had absolutely NO CLUE what he was talking about with the Arizona SB1070 law.

Just a friendly reminder, please no discussion on this particular topic in this forum, there is a long thread on it in the Filibuster already.

[Wanne]

Just a friendly reminder, please no discussion on this particular topic in this forum, there is a long thread on it in the Filibuster already.

 

sorry...didn't know it was there. thanks for the heads up!

[lostfan]

sorry...didn't know it was there. thanks for the heads up!

no big, I just saw it and by itself it's ok, but it only takes a couple of replies and then all of a sudden it's a political thread.

[chw42]

White Sox made a statement and said they don't agree with Ozzie.

 

All of the Guillen family is getting up in arms about it.

[EvilJester99]

More drama for "The Club"

[Balta1701]

White Sox made a statement and said they don't agree with Ozzie.

No team is going to come out and say publicly "yeah, we treat our latin players like dog sh*t."

 

What is more plausible though is that other teams may sit down behind the scenes and say "oh is there a problem here" and actually give it some thought. If nothing else, that 80% of the PED positive tests being Hispanic players ought to set off alarm bells that they're missing something.

 

It's also plausible that by going out and making issues like this public, Ozzie could give some teams an advantage in signing guys from those countries, because they might figure they have a better shot in teams that go farther to make sure they can overcome the language/coaching/PED barriers.

[chw42]

No team is going to come out and say publicly "yeah, we treat our latin players like dog sh*t."

 

What is more plausible though is that other teams may sit down behind the scenes and say "oh is there a problem here" and actually give it some thought. If nothing else, that 80% of the PED positive tests being Hispanic players ought to set off alarm bells that they're missing something.

 

It's also plausible that by going out and making issues like this public, Ozzie could give some teams an advantage in signing guys from those countries, because they might figure they have a better shot in teams that go farther to make sure they can overcome the language/coaching/PED barriers.

 

All good points. I really didn't think the Sox were going to say they agree with Ozzie, this issue is too controversial for an organization to approve of. Just asks for trouble.

[southsider2k5]

White Sox made a statement and said they don't agree with Ozzie.

 

All of the Guillen family is getting up in arms about it.

 

Which is funny because one of those kids should have never been paid to pick up a bat or scout, yet he did.

[Pants Rowland]

I am glad to see his comments are being debated nationally. Other than PEDs, there have been too many "stories" in the world of sports journalism that are overplayed and overdramatized. Listening to guys like Mike Greenberg, Bob Costas, or any other talking head on TV/radio break down every word and debate the personal lives of so many sports figures is the stuff of tabloids, not real reporting. It is good that Ozzie is not being treated like a clown and his comments dismissed on this issue and even better that it has sparked a healthy debate over a legitimate concern in the world of sports. Whether you agree with his stance or not, I am glad he said what he did and that it has brought this issue to the front of sports pages nationwide.

[iamshack]

Ozzie gets some backing:

Boisterous Ozzie Guillen Making Sense This Time

 

 

"That is why I identify completely with Ozzie," Mayoral said. "The main problem is that the majority of Hispanics, without generalizing, do not have the same backgrounds as players from the United States of America or Japan. You travel to Japan, as I have, and you see that Japan is another culture in itself. They have certain advantages that even kids in Puerto Rico, which is a [commonwealth] of the U.S. and the Dominican and Venezuela and Panama and elsewhere don't have."

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Yet, at the same time, the Hispanic kids have huge advantages that no one else in the world has.

 

They aren't subject the draft

They can negotiate with all of the teams in MLB, instead of just the team they are drafted by

They don't have to play years in their local professional league before being able to be a free agent, or convincing their team to post them for bids as a free agent

They can start signing at 16 years old

[Balta1701]

Yet, at the same time, the Hispanic kids have huge advantages that no one else in the world has.

 

They aren't subject the draft

They can negotiate with all of the teams in MLB, instead of just the team they are drafted by

They don't have to play years in their local professional league before being able to be a free agent, or convincing their team to post them for bids as a free agent

They can start signing at 16 years old

You think that signing with an MLB team for a few hundred thousand dollars at age 16 is an advantage?

[southsider2k5]

You think that signing with an MLB team for a few hundred thousand dollars at age 16 is an advantage?

 

Being able to sign younger sure has been a big deal in the NBA.

[Balta1701]

Being able to sign younger sure has been a big deal in the NBA.

And it hasn't exactly been known for creating a generation of well adjusted, mature, intelligent players, has it?