Removing the Fourteenth Amendment

[Balta1701]

So are you saying that government workers are generally smarter than private sector employees, or just your average McDonalds workers?

Frankly, on average, yes, government workers are better educated than private sector employees, by a significant amount. They're also typically older, because the government doesn't hire many part-time 19 year olds.

Consider these stats: Twenty percent of federal workers have a master's, professional or doctorate degree, compared with 13 percent in the private sector. Fifty-one percent of federal employees have a college degree of some sort, but only 35 percent do in the private sector.

 

Frankie and Flo may not be smarter than other folks, but they do have more schooling, and they get paid accordingly. They are also substantially older, and that contributes to higher pay -- 46 percent of federal employees are 50 or older, compared with 31 percent of private-sector workers.

 

...

Job-for-job comparisons tell a completely different story. In fact, government figures indicate that federal employees are underpaid by 26 percent compared with their counterparts in similar position in the business world.

[kapkomet]

Awww, ain't that nice. Government SAVES!

 

[southsider2k5]

Frankly, on average, yes, government workers are better educated than private sector employees, by a significant amount. They're also typically older, because the government doesn't hire many part-time 19 year olds.

 

Which is exactly why when something is privatized that the private companies are able to make a profit doing it...

[mr_genius]

Frankly, on average, yes, government workers are better educated than private sector employees, by a significant amount. They're also typically older, because the government doesn't hire many part-time 19 year olds.

 

dude, i've worked with government employees. they all had degrees from low quality programs. A lot of 'for profit' degrees. Senior level technical employees that couldn't understand simple recursion. making $150,000 a year when a new grad from a good program is actually much more competent.

 

so spare the 'vastly more educated' government employee lecture.

Edited August 23, 2010 by mr_genius

[mr_genius]

Which is exactly why when something is privatized that the private companies are able to make a profit doing it...

 

a lot of these government employees are going to find out what the real world is like pretty soon. i don't think they can compete to be honest with you. all those 'Mc Jobs' they have looked down on for years will likely be their only lifeline.

[EvilMonkey]

I don't know many teachers that get paid during the summer, actually. Most of them either get paid just for the 9 months they work, or have their checks prorated across 12 months.

So? if they are making 50k a year, it is still 50k, whether they get it over 9 months or 12 months. When you say 'prorated' you make it sound like they then get less each check for doing so. If they are educators and can't make a budget, they may need to go back to school.

[southsider2k5]

Do they also get to retire at 50 with full pension and paid medical, summers off while working, and days that end at 3 pm? Plus an untold amount of days off throughout the year for every holiday known to man? I understand your anaolgy, I just dont quite agree with it.

 

I forgot to mention that in the story about the district wanting to increase principal pay, they also mentioned that they had just laid off about 20 teachers and cut the sports budgets.

 

That is really not true. Most school systems use a rule of 85, which makes retirement before 60 about impossible.

[southsider2k5]

So? if they are making 50k a year, it is still 50k, whether they get it over 9 months or 12 months. When you say 'prorated' you make it sound like they then get less each check for doing so. If they are educators and can't make a budget, they may need to go back to school.

 

Teacher contracts in the state of Indiana are for a year.

[Balta1701]

So? if they are making 50k a year, it is still 50k, whether they get it over 9 months or 12 months. When you say 'prorated' you make it sound like they then get less each check for doing so. If they are educators and can't make a budget, they may need to go back to school.

Because our problem in this country is that we have too many overpaid, overqualified teachers.

[Balta1701]

dude, i've worked with government employees. they all had degrees from low quality programs. A lot of 'for profit' degrees. Senior level technical employees that couldn't understand simple recursion. making $150,000 a year when a new grad from a good program is actually much more competent.

 

so spare the 'educated government employee' bulls***.

Man, you think I can't say the same thing for the private sector employees?

[kapkomet]

Man, you think I can't say the same thing for the private sector employees?

 

 

We know, government is ALWAYS better.

[Balta1701]

We know, government is ALWAYS better.

No, rich people are always better. That's why they're rich.

[kapkomet]

Well, it would seem that the only rich people are government employees, so now we know why you prefer it.

 

[Balta1701]

Well, it would seem that the only rich people are government employees, so now we know why you prefer it.

Only because all your friends in the banks got bailed out by that government, so yeah, I guess we can call them government employees.

[southsider2k5]

Because our problem in this country is that we have too many overpaid, overqualified teachers.

 

There are a lot of overpaid teachers in this country who are content getting their paycheck and not caring about the kids in their classes. In most fields they wouldn't have the incentive to stick around with the large pension at the end of the tunnel. They also wouldn't have the union protection of being able to suck without being challenged for their suckiness.

[Balta1701]

There are a lot of overpaid teachers in this country who are content getting their paycheck and not caring about the kids in their classes. In most fields they wouldn't have the incentive to stick around with the large pension at the end of the tunnel. They also wouldn't have the union protection of being able to suck without being challenged for their suckiness.

The problem is...there's not exactly a line of qualified people to replace them, even in a near-depression. You'll get me on arguing that there needs to be additional levels of accountability...but you'll get challenged by me on how to determine that based on standardized tests.

[southsider2k5]

The problem is...there's not exactly a line of qualified people to replace them, even in a near-depression. You'll get me on arguing that there needs to be additional levels of accountability...but you'll get challenged by me on how to determine that based on standardized tests.

 

Standardized testing is stupid, as it Washington regulating what should be taught. A school shouldn't be any different than anywhere else where the people who run the place should decide who stays and goes.

[NorthSideSox72]

There are a lot of overpaid teachers in this country who are content getting their paycheck and not caring about the kids in their classes. In most fields they wouldn't have the incentive to stick around with the large pension at the end of the tunnel. They also wouldn't have the union protection of being able to suck without being challenged for their suckiness.

That's not an issue of paycheck, though. That's a problem of the way teachers are hired and fired, which is partially dictated by union contracts, and partially due to some really stupid "tradition" and the whole tenure/seniority system.

 

I have zero problem with the principal of a large school or district making six figures - especially if their school is performing well.

 

[Balta1701]

Standardized testing is stupid, as it Washington regulating what should be taught. A school shouldn't be any different than anywhere else where the people who run the place should decide who stays and goes.

There's a reason why the teachers unions have fought for things like tenure and job protection though...because that setting in particular lends itself to unjust firings...in particular if a teacher is doing their job...and gives a bad grade to the quarterback just because the quarterback earned a bad grade.

[NorthSideSox72]

There's a reason why the teachers unions have fought for things like tenure and job protection though...because that setting in particular lends itself to unjust firings...in particular if a teacher is doing their job...and gives a bad grade to the quarterback just because the quarterback earned a bad grade.

That is a complete load of crap. High Schools don't make a metric f*** ton of money of sports like colleges do, the situation you describe isn't going to be rampant. Besides, the teacher would turn around and sue, all would be exposed, and that would be the end of that.

 

Teachers should be exposed to all the same stuff others are - the expectations of performance, and the rewards of making that work. Anything else is just excuses for lack of performance.

 

[Balta1701]

That is a complete load of crap. High Schools don't make a metric f*** ton of money of sports like colleges do, the situation you describe isn't going to be rampant. Besides, the teacher would turn around and sue, all would be exposed, and that would be the end of that.

My high school had 1 Ph.D. on the staff. Was kind of cute. Taught chemistry. Football player in my class. I'm sure you can tell how that ends. And it's not like I was at a highly competitive regular championship high school either.

[Balta1701]

Anyway...it's not just the football excuse that would get used for firing. The other thing that can happen is that you piss off the parents by giving a kid a bad grade. Standing behind a teacher who regularly does that even if the teacher is doing a good job is a tough thing for a school to do as well.

 

Teachers unions didn't become hypersensitive about job security and tenure for no reason.

[NorthSideSox72]

My high school had 1 Ph.D. on the staff. Was kind of cute. Taught chemistry. Football player in my class. I'm sure you can tell how that ends. And it's not like I was at a highly competitive regular championship high school either.

Every job has elements of risk of being put through B.S. You are swinging a sledgehammer to kill a fly. You think putting in place a system that keeps a whole lot of bad or sub-par teachers on staff at every school, is OK, because it offsets the risk that a teacher might be put into a difficult situation? Where is the value proposition here?

 

[Balta1701]

Every job has elements of risk of being put through B.S. You are swinging a sledgehammer to kill a fly. You think putting in place a system that keeps a whole lot of bad or sub-par teachers on staff at every school, is OK, because it offsets the risk that a teacher might be put into a difficult situation? Where is the value proposition here?

Teachers fought hard for these tenure rights for a reason. Throughout the 60's and 70's, the main reasons given for why teachers were fired were "immorality" and "gross immorality" in one unnamed state. Prior to the NEA forcing a strong tenure system on school districts, teachers were regularly fired because, basically, they were unliked. They had the gall to teach evolution, or to be non-white and non-christian, etc. Now maybe I'd be convinced that anti-discrimination laws have filled that hole...but you're flat out not going to convince me that without the tenure system we wouldn't be firing teachers in many places because of pissed off, rich parents.

 

I'm not going to say it doesn't cause harm in other ways...it clearly winds up protecting teachers who should be removed...but these collectively bargained rules didn't just appear out of no where. They appeared because the alternative was a worse mess.

[NorthSideSox72]

Teachers fought hard for these tenure rights for a reason. Throughout the 60's and 70's, the main reasons given for why teachers were fired were "immorality" and "gross immorality" in one unnamed state. Prior to the NEA forcing a strong tenure system on school districts, teachers were regularly fired because, basically, they were unliked. They had the gall to teach evolution, or to be non-white and non-christian, etc. Now maybe I'd be convinced that anti-discrimination laws have filled that hole...but you're flat out not going to convince me that without the tenure system we wouldn't be firing teachers in many places because of pissed off, rich parents.

 

I'm not going to say it doesn't cause harm in other ways...it clearly winds up protecting teachers who should be removed...but these collectively bargained rules didn't just appear out of no where. They appeared because the alternative was a worse mess.

And at this point, we need another revamping. The rules are causing more harm than good, by a wide margin, in my view.

 

This isn't the 60's, and not every school is Little Rock Central.