Removing the Fourteenth Amendment

[Balta1701]

And at this point, we need another revamping. The rules are causing more harm than good, by a wide margin, in my view.

 

This isn't the 60's, and not every school is Little Rock Central.

I'm not disagreeing that there's a need for revamping...I just haven't seen a suggested revamp that I think would be an improvement.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Anyway...it's not just the football excuse that would get used for firing. The other thing that can happen is that you piss off the parents by giving a kid a bad grade. Standing behind a teacher who regularly does that even if the teacher is doing a good job is a tough thing for a school to do as well.

 

Teachers unions didn't become hypersensitive about job security and tenure for no reason.

 

That isn't the part that bothers me. It is the obligation to stand behind many more obviously failing teachers that bothers me. It is endangering kids futures with teachers who flat out don't care about the finished product. There are ways for teachers who are wronged to fixed those wrongs. What is the route a kid who has had an awful teacher, or teachers, because the unions protected them from getting the firing they deserved, to get their lives fixed? We are protecting the wrong people in this case.

[southsider2k5]

Teachers fought hard for these tenure rights for a reason. Throughout the 60's and 70's, the main reasons given for why teachers were fired were "immorality" and "gross immorality" in one unnamed state. Prior to the NEA forcing a strong tenure system on school districts, teachers were regularly fired because, basically, they were unliked. They had the gall to teach evolution, or to be non-white and non-christian, etc. Now maybe I'd be convinced that anti-discrimination laws have filled that hole...but you're flat out not going to convince me that without the tenure system we wouldn't be firing teachers in many places because of pissed off, rich parents.

 

I'm not going to say it doesn't cause harm in other ways...it clearly winds up protecting teachers who should be removed...but these collectively bargained rules didn't just appear out of no where. They appeared because the alternative was a worse mess.

 

I would say kids having their lives ruined by receiving a bad, or no, education is worse than any scenario you presented. Especially when the process annually repeats itself with the same bad teachers.

[Jenksismyhero]

Teachers fought hard for these tenure rights for a reason. Throughout the 60's and 70's, the main reasons given for why teachers were fired were "immorality" and "gross immorality" in one unnamed state. Prior to the NEA forcing a strong tenure system on school districts, teachers were regularly fired because, basically, they were unliked. They had the gall to teach evolution, or to be non-white and non-christian, etc. Now maybe I'd be convinced that anti-discrimination laws have filled that hole...but you're flat out not going to convince me that without the tenure system we wouldn't be firing teachers in many places because of pissed off, rich parents.

 

I'm not going to say it doesn't cause harm in other ways...it clearly winds up protecting teachers who should be removed...but these collectively bargained rules didn't just appear out of no where. They appeared because the alternative was a worse mess.

 

What makes them different than any other employee out there? I can get fired simply because my boss doesn't like me. Where's my union? Where's my guaranteed job?

 

The tenure system is a bunch of bulls***.

[Balta1701]

What makes them different than any other employee out there?

They're paid a lot less than they would be in any other industry given the training and time requirements.

[Balta1701]

I would say kids having their lives ruined by receiving a bad, or no, education is worse than any scenario you presented. Especially when the process annually repeats itself with the same bad teachers.

There's a slice you're missing though...Let's say that 10% of the teachers are genuinely bad and need removal/replacement. Yes, that's a bad situation. But...a significantly worse situation is losing a chunk of the other 90%, either to improper firings or to them simply not going into the career in the first place.

[StrangeSox]

What makes them different than any other employee out there? I can get fired simply because my boss doesn't like me. Where's my union? Where's my guaranteed job?

 

The tenure system is a bunch of bulls***.

 

Fight to unionize, then.

[Jenksismyhero]

They're paid a lot less than they would be in any other industry given the training and time requirements.

 

Please.

[Jenksismyhero]

Fight to unionize, then.

 

So that I can pay a corrupt bueraucracy whose interests lie with its leaders and not me? No thanks.

 

Unions were needed when there were no labor laws in this country. Now there are, so unions aren't needed. IMO they do more harm than good.

[StrangeSox]

Please.

 

30-50k for a Bachelor's + additional coursework and regular 50-60 hour weeks isn't all that much, even if they receive a lot of time off.

[StrangeSox]

So that I can pay a corrupt bueraucracy whose interests lie with its leaders and not me? No thanks.

 

You obviously have very little familiarity with unions. Many union chapters are run by local members who are out on the job every day, not some big union boss. Also, maybe you could get some employment protection from them. You know, the exact thing you were b****ing that "no one else has, so why do teachers!" just a few posts ago.

 

Unions were needed when there were no labor laws in this country. Now there are, so unions aren't needed. IMO they do more harm than good.

 

Unions are needed to give employees power. There are still labor abuses in this country even if they aren't as bad as they used to be. There are large, corrupt, harmful unions but there are also many, many unions that benefit and are run by typical workers.

 

edit: You can't say this:

I can get fired simply because my boss doesn't like me.

and then say unions aren't needed at least in some places to keep employers honest.

Edited August 23, 2010 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

There's a slice you're missing though...Let's say that 10% of the teachers are genuinely bad and need removal/replacement. Yes, that's a bad situation. But...a significantly worse situation is losing a chunk of the other 90%, either to improper firings or to them simply not going into the career in the first place.

 

No it isn't. You are robbing kids of an education, and they have zero recourse for those actions. Improperly dismissed teachers have the court system and a union to fight for them. What do kids have to get their educations back? Hell they don't even have the right to protest at the school to get recourse. I sure don't think that is a coincidence as teachers have gotten more and more protected, that the finished product coming out of our schools has fallen further down the list when compared to the rest of the industrialized world.

[Balta1701]

No it isn't. You are robbing kids of an education, and they have zero recourse for those actions. Improperly dismissed teachers have the court system and a union to fight for them. What do kids have to get their educations back? Hell they don't even have the right to protest at the school to get recourse. I sure don't think that is a coincidence as teachers have gotten more and more protected, that the finished product coming out of our schools has fallen further down the list when compared to the rest of the industrialized world.

I don't know how you missed the part where students who would normally get to deal with a good teacher...don't get a good teacher...because that teacher is gone. Those kids don't get their education back either.

[southsider2k5]

I don't know how you missed the part where students who would normally get to deal with a good teacher...don't get a good teacher...because that teacher is gone. Those kids don't get their education back either.

 

The teachers have protection, the kids don't. The system is wrong. The basis of your system can't be to protect the worst possible product you have. The results are obvious.

[Balta1701]

The teachers have protection, the kids don't. The system is wrong. The basis of your system can't be to protect the worst possible product you have. The results are obvious.

That's not what the system is biased to do though, unless you're going to argue that the large majority of teachers are inadequate. The system is currently biased to protect the large majority of teachers. The sacrifice that is made to do that is that yes, it extends protections to underqualified teachers as well. If you're going to argue that the problem is that the majority of teachers are substandard, then we have a totally different discussion; the question we should be talking about is not why we're protecting bad teachers, it's why there are so few good ones.

[Jenksismyhero]

30-50k for a Bachelor's + additional coursework and regular 50-60 hour weeks isn't all that much, even if they receive a lot of time off.

 

Most teachers get paid that for 10 months worth of work, so factor that in. Plus, 30-50k isn't horrible. I bet 35-40 is average for a college grad. I have friends with 150-200k worth of student loans from undergrad and law school that started at 35-40k.

[Balta1701]

Most teachers get paid that for 10 months worth of work, so factor that in. Plus, 30-50k isn't horrible. I bet 35-40 is average for a college grad. I have friends with 150-200k worth of student loans from undergrad and law school that started at 35-40k.

The overall average for a simple college grad right out of school is $46,000 when they're employed. However, once you start getting higher levels of education as are required for teaching certification, or for example, Masters degree level, you're upwards of $55,000.

 

Furthermore, your friends out of law school taking jobs at 35-40k are doing so with the expectation of larger salary growth than is possible in most public school systems.

[Jenksismyhero]

 

You obviously have very little familiarity with unions. Many union chapters are run by local members who are out on the job every day, not some big union boss. Also, maybe you could get some employment protection from them. You know, the exact thing you were b****ing that "no one else has, so why do teachers!" just a few posts ago

 

I studied labor law, have been exposed to unions and how they operate in a corporate setting as part of my litigation background, and have semi-personal experience of trying to get business in the city of Chicago that is over run with unions to the point where the market is practically closed. So, no, I do have a little bit of knowledge about how they work. Union chapters still have national union associates which give them directives. I'm not talking about the 10-15 man local union, but that's hardly the majority in this country.

 

And I wasn't b****ing about any lack of security, i'm b****ing that you guys think teachers are some how different than the rest of us, who are at-will employees and can be fired at any time. What keeps my job is my own initiative and productivity. Not a contract and union dues.

 

Unions are needed to give employees power. There are still labor abuses in this country even if they aren't as bad as they used to be. There are large, corrupt, harmful unions but there are also many, many unions that benefit and are run by typical workers.

 

WERE needed. They just aren't anymore. There might be some labor abuses, but you now have things like workers comp or the NLRB and the court system. Unions get in the way of doing business, both for the employees and employers.

 

edit: You can't say this:

 

and then say unions aren't needed at least in some places to keep employers honest.

 

Why limit it to "some cases?" What's so special about teachers or welders or steel workers or whatever that makes them in need of more protection than your average accountant or other white collar employee?

[StrangeSox]

Most teachers get paid that for 10 months worth of work, so factor that in.

 

I did. Given self-reported overtime hours worked during the school year, they work a full 40h/52w year in 10 months.

 

Plus, 30-50k isn't horrible. I bet 35-40 is average for a college grad. I have friends with 150-200k worth of student loans from undergrad and law school that started at 35-40k.

 

Sure, it's not horrible. But it's not overpaid, either, and as Balta pointed out, there typically isn't as much room for salary growth as in other careers. A nice pension was always a make-up factor for that, but those are going away.

[Jenksismyhero]

 

The overall average for a simple college grad right out of school is $46,000 when they're employed. However, once you start getting higher levels of education as are required for teaching certification, or for example, Masters degree level, you're upwards of $55,000.

 

 

I have 3 friends that are teachers, none of them have more than a bachelors. I don't think that's a requirement unless you want to go higher than a grade/high school teacher. But your salary always goes up with your degree.

 

 

Furthermore, your friends out of law school taking jobs at 35-40k are doing so with the expectation of larger salary growth than is possible in most public school systems.

 

 

And a teacher's salary never increases?

Edited August 23, 2010 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

I studied labor law, have been exposed to unions and how they operate in a corporate setting as part of my litigation background, and have semi-personal experience of trying to get business in the city of Chicago that is over run with unions to the point where the market is practically closed. So, no, I do have a little bit of knowledge about how they work. Union chapters still have national union associates which give them directives. I'm not talking about the 10-15 man local union, but that's hardly the majority in this country.

 

Then your sweeping generalizations are dishonest and not ignorant.

 

And I wasn't b****ing about any lack of security, i'm b****ing that you guys think teachers are some how different than the rest of us, who are at-will employees and can be fired at any time.

No, you've missed the point. Don't fault one group of workers for earning some amount of power and say over their employment just because others don't have it. Fight for it.

 

What keeps my job is my own initiative and productivity. Not a contract and union dues.

Unless, of course, your boss doesn't like you. Or you he needs to trim payroll to keep his bonus. Or they want to replace you with someone younger and cheaper. Etc. etc. etc.

 

 

 

 

 

WERE needed. They just aren't anymore. There might be some labor abuses, but you now have things like workers comp or the NLRB and the court system. Unions get in the way of doing business, both for the employees and employers.

 

And you have a lot of businesses looking to screw workers over at every turn. Unions give employees some amount of power when they typically have little or none. They get in the way of employers doing whatever they want and employees owing them sort of gratitude for having a job. This is becoming even more true as companies keep payrolls low even as things start to recover and have existing employees work more and more and more hours.

 

 

 

Why limit it to "some cases?" What's so special about teachers or welders or steel workers or whatever that makes them in need of more protection than your average accountant or other white collar employee?

 

I said "some places" because there are honest, decent employers out there. I wasn't referring to a specific career field.

 

Also, for accountants, the IRS is unionized.

 

[StrangeSox]

And a teacher's salary never increases?

 

That sentence didn't end where you highlighted:

 

"with the expectation of larger salary growth than is possible in most public school systems."

[StrangeSox]

I have 3 friends that are teachers, none of them have more than a bachelors. I don't think that's a requirement unless you want to go higher than a grade/high school teacher. But your salary always goes up with your degree.

 

At a minimum, to be a HS teacher in IL, you need a bachelor's in your field (english, math, bio, etc.) plus another 18 or so credit hours in education plus a semester of observations and a semester of student teaching. If you want to teach middle school, that's another two or three classes. Teachers also have continuing education requirements, but that's also found in other fields.

[Jenksismyhero]

Then your sweeping generalizations are dishonest and not ignorant.

 

How is it dishonest? Because my opinions are based on my personal experiences? Am I lying about it?

 

No, you've missed the point. Don't fault one group of workers for earning some amount of power and say over their employment just because others don't have it. Fight for it.

 

I don't fault them for anything. I'm saying Ithat I find the whole tenure situation a joke, and the argument that they need special protection is not a good one.

 

Unless, of course, your boss doesn't like you. Or you he needs to trim payroll to keep his bonus. Or they want to replace you with someone younger and cheaper. Etc. etc. etc.

 

Again, how does this differ from any other employment situation?

 

 

And you have a lot of businesses looking to screw workers over at every turn. Unions give employees some amount of power when they typically have little or none. They get in the way of employers doing whatever they want and employees owing them sort of gratitude for having a job. This is becoming even more true as companies keep payrolls low even as things start to recover and have existing employees work more and more and more hours.

 

You have a minority of companies doing that, because an employer that does nothing but screw its employees all the time eventually won't have any employees and will be out of business.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

That sentence didn't end where you highlighted:

 

"with the expectation of larger salary growth than is possible in most public school systems."

 

Please show much evidence that said friends can "expect" a higher salary that isn't similiar to that of a teacher. There's no guarantees of that. Not all lawyers make a ton of money. Hell, add the pension in and I bet teachers do pretty damn well over their lifetime.