Removing the Fourteenth Amendment

[StrangeSox]

How is it dishonest? Because my opinions are based on my personal experiences? Am I lying about it?

 

You're characterizing all unions as large, corrupt bureaucracies that don't advocate for the employees. That is dishonest.

 

 

I don't fault them for anything. I'm saying Ithat I find the whole tenure situation a joke, and the argument that they need special protection is not a good one.

 

I don't think they need special protection. The tenure system isn't great. At-will employment is pretty terrible, though.

 

 

 

Again, how does this differ from any other employment situation?

 

It doesn't. You're still missing the point.

 

 

 

 

You have a minority of companies doing that, because an employer that does nothing but screw its employees all the time eventually won't have any employees and will be out of business.

 

Yeah, because those employees really have an option right now. It's either work or join the ranks of the unemployed. Companies are in a great position right now wrt leverage over employees such that non-union at-will employees are powerless.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

At a minimum, to be a HS teacher in IL, you need a bachelor's in your field (english, math, bio, etc.) plus another 18 or so credit hours in education plus a semester of observations and a semester of student teaching. If you want to teach middle school, that's another two or three classes. Teachers also have continuing education requirements, but that's also found in other fields.

 

Which most programs in most colleges is equal to a 4 year degree. All of my teacher friends went through the same amount of undergrad I did, and all became teachers right after school. It's not anymore work.

[StrangeSox]

Please show much evidence that said friends can "expect" a higher salary that isn't similiar to that of a teacher. There's no guarantees of that. Not all lawyers make a ton of money.

 

You really need a source for the claim "average lawyer salary > average teach salary"?

 

Hell, add the pension in and I bet teachers do pretty damn well over their lifetime.

 

Right, the pensions were always a balancing point, but that's not the case any more. Costs keep rising and benefits keep dropping.

 

Being a teacher in the Chicago suburbs isn't a poverty gig. You can actually do very well on a two-teacher household income. That was never my argument. In fact, my original comment was: government jobs tend to require more education than "all private sector jobs". If you split out the jobs based on equal educational levels, I'll bet we find private sector jobs out-pacing public sector jobs.

[Texsox]

Do they also get to retire at 50 with full pension and paid medical, summers off while working, and days that end at 3 pm? Plus an untold amount of days off throughout the year for every holiday known to man? I understand your anaolgy, I just dont quite agree with it.

 

I forgot to mention that in the story about the district wanting to increase principal pay, they also mentioned that they had just laid off about 20 teachers and cut the sports budgets.

 

Not even close to their actual hours.

The principal here arrives well before 6:30 am and is still here when I leave around 5. They attend about every district meeting imaginable (*all in the evening) He is the one that opens the schools on Sunday afternoons for any teachers that need to get in. They do not have summers off. They do receive more vacation than most managers, but not the same as teachers.

[Jenksismyhero]

You're characterizing all unions as large, corrupt bureaucracies that don't advocate for the employees. That is dishonest.

 

 

"I'm not talking about the 10-15 man local union, but that's hardly the majority in this country."

 

I don't think they need special protection. The tenure system isn't great. At-will employment is pretty terrible, though.

 

Ok, so that's the argument. I'm saying the at-will isn't any worse, so we can do without the tenure system.

 

It doesn't. You're still missing the point.

 

Your point is that teachers were smart enough to unionize so don't fault them for having that protection. I get it. But it's still not a good justification for having the tenure system given the negatives associated with it.

 

Yeah, because those employees really have an option right now. It's either work or join the ranks of the unemployed. Companies are in a great position right now wrt leverage over employees such that non-union at-will employees are powerless.

 

Ask all those unionized GM workers how well it worked out for them. Unions don't protect s*** right now when businesses are going bankrupt. You're at the mercy of your employer regardless of whether you're in a union or not.

[southsider2k5]

That's not what the system is biased to do though, unless you're going to argue that the large majority of teachers are inadequate. The system is currently biased to protect the large majority of teachers. The sacrifice that is made to do that is that yes, it extends protections to underqualified teachers as well. If you're going to argue that the problem is that the majority of teachers are substandard, then we have a totally different discussion; the question we should be talking about is not why we're protecting bad teachers, it's why there are so few good ones.

 

You seem to be arguing that most teachers would get fired tomorrow if the systems had the chance, which isn't realistic at all. I really believe that there are a lot more teachers who are weighing down the system, and that has nothing to do with qualifications. There is pretty zero zero recourse to get rid of them. No, I can't accept that a system which is geared to protect the worst of the system is right.

 

The discussion about why there are so few good teachers is another problem with education in this country. Not only have we created a system which protects bad teachers at the expense of good teachers, or at least someone to replace them, but we have also created a system where we don't allow the good teachers to be good teachers. We are getting to the point where they can only teach what the tests and the mandates state. Again, the results speak for themselves.

[StrangeSox]

Which most programs in most colleges is equal to a 4 year degree. All of my teacher friends went through the same amount of undergrad I did, and all became teachers right after school. It's not anymore work.

 

How is BS/BA + additional coursework and cert's and testing not more work than BS/BA? At U of I, you'd take your major and you'd have to minor in Teacher Education. A major + minor is more work than just a minor.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

The overall average for a simple college grad right out of school is $46,000 when they're employed. However, once you start getting higher levels of education as are required for teaching certification, or for example, Masters degree level, you're upwards of $55,000.

 

Furthermore, your friends out of law school taking jobs at 35-40k are doing so with the expectation of larger salary growth than is possible in most public school systems.

 

Such as making six figures in twenty to thirty years and retiring with a pension?

[NorthSideSox72]

Not even close to their actual hours.

The principal here arrives well before 6:30 am and is still here when I leave around 5. They attend about every district meeting imaginable (*all in the evening) He is the one that opens the schools on Sunday afternoons for any teachers that need to get in. They do not have summers off. They do receive more vacation than most managers, but not the same as teachers.

I don't like the tenure system and think its B.S., but I agree with your post here. School principals work a ton of hours in a hard job, and I have zero problem with someone who has attained that position making 6 figures, much like their private industry cohorts (people who manage dozens or hundreds of people and are in a very public leadership role).

 

[Jenksismyhero]

How is BS/BA + additional coursework and cert's and testing not more work than BS/BA? At U of I, you'd take your major and you'd have to minor in Teacher Education. A major + minor is more work than just a minor.

 

I had 2 majors in college and took the same amount of classes as someone with one. It's not anymore hours, it's just more specific courses. Educational programs have less class hours than typical majors because the student teaching aspects are written into the program. It's not like they go to school for 4 years, spend a year student teaching and then graduate. It's all done in 4 years, just like a typical degree.

[StrangeSox]

"I'm not talking about the 10-15 man local union, but that's hardly the majority in this country."

 

Right. You're complaining that teachers can't be fired at will, but you can. "Where's my union," you ask. When I say, "Why not unionize?", you respond that all unions are large, corrupt bureaucracies that don't have the workers' interests in mind. I respond that many unions aren't like that, but you just hand-wave it away to keep your dishonest generalization going.

 

 

 

Ok, so that's the argument. I'm saying the at-will isn't any worse, so we can do without the tenure system.

 

At-will is clearly worse for the employees.

 

 

 

Your point is that teachers were smart enough to unionize so don't fault them for having that protection. I get it. But it's still not a good justification for having the tenure system given the negatives associated with it.

No, it's not and it wasn't really meant to be. I wouldn't mind seeing the tenure system revamped.

 

 

 

Ask all those unionized GM workers how well it worked out for them.

Oh, when did I argue that being in a union means you're guaranteed a job forever and ever?

 

Unions don't protect s*** right now when businesses are going bankrupt.

Sure. If your employer shuts their doors (and doesn't violate existing contracts in doing so in order to move to a cheaper labor pool), then you're out of a job. When did I argue that being in a union means you're guaranteed a job forever and ever?

 

You're at the mercy of your employer regardless of whether you're in a union or not.

 

But there are still profitable companies. And they're finding that they can push a smaller workforce to work more and more instead of taking the risk of adding payroll right now. If employees have some sort of bargaining power, they won't be able to push too far without fair compensation or additional hiring.

 

[StrangeSox]

I had 2 majors in college and took the same amount of classes as someone with one. It's not anymore hours, it's just more specific courses. Educational programs have less class hours than typical majors because the student teaching aspects are written into the program. It's not like they go to school for 4 years, spend a year student teaching and then graduate. It's all done in 4 years, just like a typical degree.

 

You have to fulfill all the requirements for a regular BS/BA. It's not some shortcut degree. You'll have the same BS in Biology or Math as someone who wants to go into postdoc studies.

 

Maybe you're thinking of primary education which is a different animal than secondary.

[Balta1701]

Hell, add the pension in and I bet teachers do pretty damn well over their lifetime.

And that's precisely the point...no one would go into teaching without the benefits, one of which is job security after a certain point, another of which is family health care, and another of which is a reliable retirement plan.

[Jenksismyhero]

You have to fulfill all the requirements for a regular BS/BA. It's not some shortcut degree. You'll have the same BS in Biology or Math as someone who wants to go into postdoc studies.

 

Maybe you're thinking of primary education which is a different animal than secondary.

 

Eh, I don't think so. I think they have the same BS requirements but not as many hours as a normal major because the student teaching is a part of it (or another way to put it, they have the same number of hours, its just not in a typical classrom, it's in the field). That's how it was set up at my university.

[StrangeSox]

What school?

[southsider2k5]

And that's precisely the point...no one would go into teaching without the benefits, one of which is job security after a certain point, another of which is family health care, and another of which is a reliable retirement plan.

 

As a teacher, my wife is paying $370 every two weeks for health insurance. It's hard to list that as a universal positive. My old job in the private sector was about 25% cheaper for health care costs.

[Jenksismyhero]

What school?

 

http://www.iwu.edu/edstudies/courses/teach...ion/index.shtml

[NorthSideSox72]

Sort of related to the general theme of the thread (the original one), I noticed on Facebook today, some friends joined/liked a group called: "Illegal immigration is not a new problem, Native Americans used to call it 'White People'. "

[southsider2k5]

Sort of related to the general theme of the thread (the original one), I noticed on Facebook today, some friends joined/liked a group called: "Illegal immigration is not a new problem, Native Americans used to call it 'White People'. "

 

And how'd that work out?

[Balta1701]

And how'd that work out?

You're saying we need to keep Mexicans out because they'll give us syphilis and smallpox?

[NorthSideSox72]

And how'd that work out?

Well, I wasn't trying to make a serious point of it, I just thought it was worth a chuckle. Obviously the situations are different.

 

[kapkomet]

You're saying we need to keep Mexicans out because they'll give us syphilis and smallpox?

 

 

Is THAT what is the matter with you?

[Texsox]

I don't like the tenure system and think its B.S., but I agree with your post here. School principals work a ton of hours in a hard job, and I have zero problem with someone who has attained that position making 6 figures, much like their private industry cohorts (people who manage dozens or hundreds of people and are in a very public leadership role).

 

 

Tenure does not pertain to Administration. Principals, like baseball managers, are much easier to fire.

[Texsox]

We are getting to the point where they can only teach what the tests and the mandates state. Again, the results speak for themselves.

 

I am conflicted on this. I think everyone agrees something has to be taught. But should someone in my class learn something different than a student in the classroom across the hall? Should kids in San Antonio learn a different history than a kid in Houston or Bloomington? Why should I, or any classroom teacher, decide what is taught?

 

The problem becomes when a state mandates a minimum number of things that should be covered. Let's say it should occupy 50% of the time, allowing Districts and teachers the opportunity to fill in the rest as they see fit. While that sounds like a nice compromise, what ends up happening is the 50% is taught then the rest of the time is spent reviewing to make certain the kids perform on the test or else schools start losing funding. Taxpayers want the type of accountability that can only happen with test results.

[Iwritecode]

I am conflicted on this. I think everyone agrees something has to be taught. But should someone in my class learn something different than a student in the classroom across the hall? Should kids in San Antonio learn a different history than a kid in Houston or Bloomington? Why should I, or any classroom teacher, decide what is taught?

 

The problem becomes when a state mandates a minimum number of things that should be covered. Let's say it should occupy 50% of the time, allowing Districts and teachers the opportunity to fill in the rest as they see fit. While that sounds like a nice compromise, what ends up happening is the 50% is taught then the rest of the time is spent reviewing to make certain the kids perform on the test or else schools start losing funding. Taxpayers want the type of accountability that can only happen with test results.

 

Different history? Is that even possible? I'm pretty sure what happened is what happened. Maybe some kids learn different parts of history. I know we never made it much more than halfway through the book in any history class I took.

 

I think the good teachers have the ablity to teach the kids what they need to know to pass the tests plus throw in some "extra" stuff as well.

 

Especially as they get into the higher grades and start taking different electives, the standardized testing is more difficult.