Removing the Fourteenth Amendment

[NorthSideSox72]

Are you really arguing that the 14th amendment needs to be altered or ignored to deny citizenship to children born of non-US citizens because they might work under the table one day?

 

Because if that's the case, half of native born Brooklyn needs to turn in their passports.

I'd be OK with changing it to be that children born to people who are in the country illegally do not gain citizenship. Seems pretty fair to me.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm pretty sure you just called me a racist, which is laughable.

 

No, the reason to explore this (at least for me - certainly SOME of these voices in the debate are racist) is simple. Citizenship is this country's single greatest commodity. And the more you flood the country with that commodity, the less value it has, NOT because it means "undesirable" people are here, but because there are limits to the OTHER resources we have. Jobs, government services, water/land/natural resources, money, etc.

 

Just as I have said in here in many ways that you HAVE to be careful with the consumption of natural resources if you want society to thrive, similarly, you HAVE to be careful of the rate at which people are coming into the country to access them.

 

The U.S. is the place more people want to live than anywhere on Earth, far and away. We have something really great going here, even with its flaws. If you just fling open the doors with no restrictions to access and citizenship whatsoever, you will get huge floods of people that will inevitably make life more difficult for everyone here. This is why we have restrictions on citizenship and visitation, just like every country on earth (or close) does.

 

So... since most people would agree that SOME sort of controls must be in place... the debate is not something ethereal and idealistic as you seem to think. What it really is, is deciding where you want that line to be. And all I'm saying is, maybe when deciding to draw that line, you should make life EASIER for the immigrants who do things right, and HARDER for those who don't.

 

Agree 100%, and I think that's why the discussion is an important one. No one is saying close the borders completely.

[southsider2k5]

I'd be OK with changing it to be that children born to people who are in the country illegally do not gain citizenship. Seems pretty fair to me.

 

Bingo.

[southsider2k5]

Agree 100%, and I think that's why the discussion is an important one. No one is saying close the borders completely.

 

Bingo X2

[NorthSideSox72]

Agree 100%, and I think that's why the discussion is an important one. No one is saying close the borders completely.

Well, there is a radical element saying we should indeed close down the borders, or certain borders anyway. Not in this forum though, at least so far. And those are the people who are more likely to be motivated by racism.

 

[bmags]

If we were talking about the immigration bill Bush was supporting it'd be one thing, but that got killed. Pretty sure we are talking about shutting the border.

 

This is silly, being born in a country = citizenship is a pretty good policy replicated world over. I can't imagine really creating a better law that would create less of a hassle.

[bmags]

Well, there is the republican party saying we should indeed close down the borders, or certain borders anyway. Not in this forum though, at least so far. And those are the people who are more likely to be motivated by racism.

fixt.

 

What else has come out recently beside this? I haven't heard anything about support for a guest worker program.

[Jenksismyhero]

So, it's OK to distrust and beat up Mexicans because we used to do that to the Irish?

 

Why pigeonhole this to mexicans only? Pretty sure the debate has been "immigrants," which could be any race.

 

 

[bmags]

Why pigeonhole this to mexicans only? Pretty sure the debate has been "immigrants," which could be any race.

 

Sureeee.

[Balta1701]

fixt.

 

What else has come out recently beside this? I haven't heard anything about support for a guest worker program.

Everything has been about enforcement and punishment lately.

[Balta1701]

Why pigeonhole this to mexicans only? Pretty sure the debate has been "immigrants," which could be any race.

Which is why we're talking about how bad the birth tourism of people on legitimate visas is (which at least that Politifact post I brought in earlier suggests is much more common than the illegal immigrant coming here to give birth for citizenship).

[Jenksismyhero]

Sureeee.

 

Yep, because the only immigrants in this country are brown.

 

Graham tacitly acknowledged this distinction in his follow-up appearance on Van Susteren's show on Aug. 3, 2010, saying, "You have found and I've provided you information about groups that are marketing to Chinese, and Mideastern and European families a 90-day visa package, where you come to America as a tourist. You come to a resort. You have your child at a hospital within the resort. That child is an American citizen. You turn around and leave."

Edited August 11, 2010 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

Yep, because the only immigrants in this country are brown.

You'll note...the proposal that 2k5 and NSS agreed to says that is entirely ok.

[bmags]

Yep, because the only immigrants in this country are brown.

The only immigrants people are complaining about.

[Rex Kickass]

I answered Baltas first question, which had nothing to do with that.

 

Balta asked you if native born US citizens born to undocumented immigrants pay into the system. You responded, not if they get paid in cash.

 

So my question is what makes that US citizen different than my ex who worked in the bodega on the corner under the table who was born in Connecticut to a family who was born in Connecticut?

 

It doesn't.

 

One of the many problems that I have in changing the rules is this. How do you determine someone's parents status at the time of their birth when they apply for a passport, or apply for their Social Security card several years into their lives? Especially if they are still living in the US? I don't think you reasonably can.

 

You'd have to check for Mom's green card in mid-delivery so the right information is put on the birth certificate. That's if errors aren't made. And the last time I checked, its not a hospital's job to determine citizenship. It's a hospital's job to treat people and make them well again.

 

And what happens when the baby is born outside of a hospital? Who's making that determination? And how do you differentiate between undocumented residents and non-citizen documented residents? Do those children get the benefits of citizenship in a country where their parents do pay into the system?

 

Further, what do you do when the child in question can't obtain citizenship in his/her parent's home country - or even residency for that matter?

 

Steps to solve the immigration issue don't involve changing the 14th amendment. They involve going after the supply of jobs that suck undocumented immigrants in for the promise of a better life that often times doesn't even materialize. Until we do that, people will still get in. And we'll still have an immigration issue.

[Balta1701]

You'd have to check for Mom's green card in mid-delivery so the right information is put on the birth certificate. That's if errors aren't made. And the last time I checked, its not a hospital's job to determine citizenship. It's a hospital's job to treat people and make them well again.

I want to highlight this bit of Rex's post...another thing you really, really don't want is to have immigrants scared to go to the hospital/doctor if they get sick, or hurt, or are having a child. It's the L.A. police story again...the L.A. police in the 90's had to declare publicly that they wouldn't check people's immigration status because they flat out couldn't enforce the city when the illegal immigrants there were too scared to report crimes.

 

You have hospitals checking immigration status, you're going to wind up with a body count. Unless you think Coyotes are good at delivering babies.

[Rex Kickass]

You have hospitals checking immigration status, you're going to wind up with a body count. Unless you think Coyotes are good at delivering babies.

 

Or lots of dumpster babies.

[Jenksismyhero]

You'll note...the proposal that 2k5 and NSS agreed to says that is entirely ok.

 

Good for them. I think part of the discussion should be that the "born here" requirement, if any, would be that a temporary stay wouldn't suffice.

[Balta1701]

Good for them. I think part of the discussion should be that the "born here" requirement, if any, would be that a temporary stay wouldn't suffice.

And this is why I have a problem with any concept of this and why I think it's insane that any little-c conservative would support anything like this...because now the government is going to be deciding standards for how long you need to be here for it to count, or what you need to be doing, or maybe which country you need to come from to qualify. Any limit you try to set, I can come up with an easy example to get around it that will require you to give up and strengthen your rule.

[Rex Kickass]

Citizenship inquiries in the delivery room does not equal smaller government.

[Jenksismyhero]

And this is why I have a problem with any concept of this and why I think it's insane that any little-c conservative would support anything like this...because now the government is going to be deciding standards for how long you need to be here for it to count, or what you need to be doing, or maybe which country you need to come from to qualify. Any limit you try to set, I can come up with an easy example to get around it that will require you to give up and strengthen your rule.

 

how is this different than any other standard the government arbitrarily sets?

 

 

[Balta1701]

how is this different than any other standard the government arbitrarily sets?

Any other time you'd be angry about the government getting involved in people's lives.

[Jenksismyhero]

Any other time you'd be angry about the government getting involved in people's lives.

 

I think issues involving citizenship and issues involving say, me being forced to buy health insurance, are a little different.

 

And i'm asking you, why is that such a big deal? It's like arguing that the government has the power to determine the age requirements of the President. "Well if you allow that to happen, then the whole thing falls apart!" GMAB.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I'd be OK with changing it to be that children born to people who are in the country illegally do not gain citizenship. Seems pretty fair to me.

 

Fair and logical. I don't even know how that doesn't make sense.

 

And for reference, since everyone always loves comparing us to our friends in Europe, jus soli is not observed by most European countries nor many other "western" nations.

[Balta1701]

Fair and logical. I don't even know how that doesn't make sense.

 

And for reference, since everyone always loves comparing us to our friends in Europe, jus soli is not observed by most European countries nor many other "western" nations.

It is enforced by 33 countries, including Mexico and Canada.

 

Furthermore...I think right now, Western Europe is a great example of the societal problems that come up when you start extracting significant barriers to assimilation of immigrants and a strong argument in favor of retaining the status quo.