Removing the Fourteenth Amendment

[Balta1701]

Well, if it's up to your party any "enforcement" is just racist discrimination right? And so fine, if it turns out that enforcement costs that much, you again say that the change is effective from this day forward, not the past.

Up to my party? Um, my Party's president has vastly increased the amount spent on enforcing immigration law since he took office.

 

Frankly though...yeah, I think that there's a strong racial element to why we obsess over illegal immigration when the only reason it's illegal is that we won't update our laws to reflect reality. Immigration quotas have a history of being a great way for America to express its racial issues in legal ways.

[Jenksismyhero]

On a related topic, Florida's Attorney General proposes a stricter version of the Arizona immigration bill, REQUIRING immigration status checks for any lawful stop. Who has issues with this? What if it became a law that every citizen of the state was required to provide proof of citizenship during a stop, just like a drivers license and insurance are already required? What if the state can put the immigration status onto your drivers license? Is that still discrimination?

Edited August 11, 2010 by Jenksismybitch

[Soxbadger]

I dunno how there wouldn't be. If illegals are doing things the "right way," i.e., paying their taxes, paying for education and healthcare and all that, then there's no gain or loss. If illegals are doing it the wrong way, living here illegally, getting paid in cash, sending all the money home, AND utilzing the social services for the kids, then it's a net gain because the cost of providing those services will go elsewhere. You have what, 20 million illegals in this country? How many of them are children? I think a significant amount.

 

But any potential savings have to be balanced against the cost of enforcement. Therefore I believe that when you add the cost of enforcement you are talking about a zero sum gain. I actually believe it would become like the "war on drugs" where it costs the govt more to enforce than it would to just let it go.

 

Moreover, I think people DO come here for the benefit of their children, and if that incentive is gone, I think there's a reasonable chance that illegal immigration goes down.

 

But in many cases it is better to be an illegal US citizen, than a citizen of wherever they come from. The 14th amendment issue is to prevent those unborn children from becoming citizens by right. Many of their parents would have come to the US regardless. It is the child who is being punished and who will be put in limbo, because if they are born in the US and they arent US citizens, where are they citizens of?

 

 

[Balta1701]

On a related topic, Florida's Attorney General proposes a stricter version of the Arizona immigration bill, REQUIRING immigration status checks for any lawful stop. Who has issues with this? What if it became a law that every citizen of the state were required to provide proof of citizenship during a stop, just like a Drivers license and insurance are already required? What if the state can change the immigration status onto your drivers license? Is that still discrimination?

This sort of law would make law enforcement in any state with a legitimate illegal immigration population absolutely impossible.

[Soxbadger]

I dont think the govt should have the right to ask for citizenship papers at a lawful stop. It has no relationship to whether or not the person was speeding or committing another vehicle related offense.

 

They have a right to ask for license, registration and insurance because those (in some states) are prerequisites for being able to drive legally on the road.

 

Unless Florida makes being a citizen a prerequisite for driving on Florida roads, I dont see why it would be relevant whether a person was an US citizen, Japanese Citizen, Illegal immigrant, or martian.

 

Now if Florida makes a law that says only US citizens can drive on their roads, they would definitely have a legitimate right to ask for proof of citizenship.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Soxbadger

[BigSqwert]

On a related topic, Florida's Attorney General proposes a stricter version of the Arizona immigration bill, REQUIRING immigration status checks for any lawful stop. Who has issues with this? What if it became a law that every citizen of the state was required to provide proof of citizenship during a stop, just like a drivers license and insurance are already required? What if the state can put the immigration status onto your drivers license? Is that still discrimination?

So tourists have to show their passports and/or vacation itineraries for a routine traffic stop?

[Jenksismyhero]

I dont think the govt should have the right to ask for citizenship papers at a lawful stop. It has no relationship to whether or not the person was speeding or committing another vehicle related offense.

 

They have a right to ask for license, registration and insurance because those (in some states) are prerequisites for being able to drive legally on the road.

 

Unless Florida makes being a citizen a prerequisite for driving on Florida roads, I dont see why it would be relevant whether a person was an US citizen, Japanese Citizen, Illegal immigrant, or martian.

 

Now if Florida makes a law that says only US citizens can drive on their roads, they would definitely have a legitimate right to ask for proof of citizenship.

 

In Illinois you have to provide proof of residency and your SS# to obtain a license. So yeah, I think you have to be a citizen/legal alien to drive.

[Balta1701]

So tourists have to show their passports and/or vacation itineraries for a routine traffic stop?

Thankfully, Florida has no major tourism industry to worry about inconveniencing.

[Jenksismyhero]

So tourists have to show their passports and/or vacation itineraries for a routine traffic stop?

 

How is that worse than having to provide a drivers license?

[Jenksismyhero]

So basically because the law would be TOO effective it's not a good idea?

[BigSqwert]

How is that worse than having to provide a drivers license?

So you're advocating people carry their birth certificate or other very important documents in their car? That would be a field day for identity thieves.

[Balta1701]

In Illinois you have to provide proof of residency and your SS# to obtain a license. So yeah, I think you have to be a citizen/legal alien to drive.

California a few years ago had a large debate over a proposal to allow illegal immigrants to obtain drivers' licenses...the proposal came about basically because the population of unlicensed illegals who either didn't know the rules of the road or who didn't care to follow them because they were driving illegally anyway was making a complete mess of California's highway system. Plus, it brought illegals into the system by requiring that they also have automobile insurance. The bill was repealed by the current Governor upon taking office.

[Jenksismyhero]

So you're advocating people carry their birth certificate or other very important documents in their car? That would be a field day for identity thieves.

 

Lol, so basically you'll just keep making up inconveniences because the law would be effective at catching illegals? I think if you have to provide a drivers license and insurance registration than it's not any more inconvenient to provide proof of citizenship.

[Soxbadger]

In Illinois you have to provide proof of residency and your SS# to obtain a license. So yeah, I think you have to be a citizen/legal alien to drive.

 

Florida most likely has the right to make a law that states you need to be a citizen/legal alien to drive.

 

They would have major issues with other states due to the full faith and credit clause, but if they could work them out, potentially this could be okay.

 

The problem is under the full faith and credit clause, Florida would most likely have to allow drivers with valid licenses from other states to use their roads, which would mean if in Alabama all you need is $50 for a license with no proof, Florida would have to allow the Alabama driver on their road, regardless of immigration status.

 

But if they made those laws, then they would be probably allowed to enforce them.

 

 

[BigSqwert]

Lol, so basically you'll just keep making up inconveniences because the law would be effective at catching illegals? I think if you have to provide a drivers license and insurance registration than it's not any more inconvenient to provide proof of citizenship.

What do you constitute as proof of citizenship?

Edited August 11, 2010 by BigSqwert

[NorthSideSox72]

California a few years ago had a large debate over a proposal to allow illegal immigrants to obtain drivers' licenses...the proposal came about basically because the population of unlicensed illegals who either didn't know the rules of the road or who didn't care to follow them because they were driving illegally anyway was making a complete mess of California's highway system. Plus, it brought illegals into the system by requiring that they also have automobile insurance. The bill was repealed by the current Governor upon taking office.

This law passed and stuck in New Mexico.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

California a few years ago had a large debate over a proposal to allow illegal immigrants to obtain drivers' licenses...the proposal came about basically because the population of unlicensed illegals who either didn't know the rules of the road or who didn't care to follow them because they were driving illegally anyway was making a complete mess of California's highway system. Plus, it brought illegals into the system by requiring that they also have automobile insurance. The bill was repealed by the current Governor upon taking office.

 

I love this attitude of "whelp, it'd be a b**** to do, so lets just forget about it." That's called American Justice baby.

[Balta1701]

This law passed and stuck in New Mexico.

The roads there were probably worse than california's...higher %age of illegals because of the smaller population.

[Jenksismyhero]

What do you constitute as proof of citizenship?

 

What does it matter? Make it 10 documents, who cares, a requirement is a requirement, no different than having to provide proof of a license and proof of insurance during a stop.

[BigSqwert]

What does it matter? Make it 10 documents, who cares, a requirement is a requirement, no different than having to provide proof of a license and proof of insurance during a stop.

Well if you count something like a birth certificate you're telling me a traffic cop could tell if it's a forgery? How many different types of birth certificates are there? And you would feel comfortable carrying yours around with you or leaving it in your car?

[Jenksismyhero]

Well if you count something like a birth certificate you're telling me a traffic cop could tell if it's a forgery? How many different types of birth certificates are there? And you would feel comfortable carrying yours around with you or leaving it in your car?

 

So 5% of people get away with it. Just like a small percentage of people probably get away with using fake drivers licenses, ss numbers, birth certificates, etc. Doesn't mean we shouldn't enact the law to get the rest of the 95% of illegals who won't get away with it.

 

You're just providing inconveniences, not arguments. So long as the requirement is the same for everyone, I dunno how a court could over turn it.

[BigSqwert]

So 5% of people get away with it. Just like a small percentage of people probably get away with using fake drivers licenses, ss numbers, birth certificates, etc. Doesn't mean we shouldn't enact the law to get the rest of the 95% of illegals who won't get away with it.

 

You're just providing inconveniences, not arguments. So long as the requirement is the same for everyone, I dunno how a court could over turn it.

Again. How does a traffic cop become an expert in spotting a fake birth certificate? My original one looks nothing like the duplicate I had ordered. How many variations of them are there?

[Jenksismyhero]

Again. How does a traffic cop become an expert in spotting a fake birth certificate? My original one looks nothing like the duplicate I had ordered. How many variations of them are there?

 

How many can spot a fake ID? They'll be trained to look for things, some will get missed, but the majority won't. How is that an argument against not doing it? You really think everyone would get away with it?

[BigSqwert]

How many can spot a fake ID? They'll be trained to look for things, some will get missed, but the majority won't. How is that an argument against not doing it? You really think everyone would get away with it?

The state has one type of Driver's License whereas there could be an endless number of iterations of a birth certificate.

[Soxbadger]

So long as the requirement is the same for everyone, I dunno how a court could over turn it.

 

The problem would be the full faith and credit clause.

 

State A wont appreciate State B making rules that may make it so that people from State A couldnt drive in State B, while at the same time allowing drivers from the State B to drive in State A.