Removing the Fourteenth Amendment

[Balta1701]

So...I just want to be clear...your only example is the one under Reagan, correct?

[southsider2k5]

So...I just want to be clear...your only example is the one under Reagan, correct?

 

Yes. And it has been a miserable failure. Just to be clear.

[Soxbadger]

If you make it easier to become a legal citizen, I believe most reasonable people would also agree that you can more strictly enforce illegal immigration.

 

I assume that there are other people like me who do not want to enforce illegal immigration laws, because we really do not believe in them. I do not believe that freedom should be "First come first serve", but instead that the path to freedom should be available to all that seek it.

 

So if everyone could come to the US legally, I would have no problem being a hard ass on those who still came here illegally. I would have no crisis of conscience because I would know that the people who came here illegally had the opportunity to come here legally, but just chose not to.

 

Conversely, today I feel bad for illegal immigrants because I feel the majority would have come here legally if there were not so many unreasonable barriers to their entry. I do not feel that unjust laws should be enforced, so I do not believe illegals should be deported.

 

[Balta1701]

Yes. And it has been a miserable failure. Just to be clear.

Ok.

 

I can still then argue that it's been a miserable failure because we didn't change the laws at the same time to create a long-term fix. All I was asking.

[Rex Kickass]

Its the opposite really. Giving away more citizenships make amnesty easier to grant.

 

If that's the case, why hasn't there been a second amnesty issued in the last generation? After all, we've had birthright citizenship all this time.

 

BTW, Mike Huckabee came out against this within the last 24 hours - saying that it doesn't really fix anything.

[southsider2k5]

Ok.

 

I can still then argue that it's been a miserable failure because we didn't change the laws at the same time to create a long-term fix. All I was asking.

 

Tell me if you have heard this all before... All of those same talking points are in there again 25 years later. Work programs, verification, enforcement, etc. You are right, we didn't create a long term fix, and it won't 25 years later.

 

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d0.../d099query.html

 

Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 - Title I: Control of Illegal Immigration - Part A: Employment - Amends the Immigration and Nationality Act to make it unlawful for a person or other entity to: (1) hire (including through subcontractors), recruit, or refer for a fee for U.S. employment any alien knowing that such person is unauthorized to work, or any person without verifying his or her work status; or (2) continue to employ an alien knowing of such person's unauthorized work status.

 

Makes verification compliance (including the use of State employment agency documentation) an affirmative defense to any hiring or referral violation.

 

Establishes an employment verification system. Requires: (1) the employer to attest, on a form developed by the Attorney General, that the employee's work status has been verified by examination of a passport, birth certificate, social security card, alien documentation papers, or other proof; (2) the worker to similarly attest that he or she is a U.S. citizen or national, or authorized alien; and (3) the employer to keep such records for three years in the case of referral or recruitment, or the later of three years or one year after employment termination in the case of hiring.

 

States that nothing in this Act shall be construed to authorize a national identity card or system.

 

Directs the President to monitor and evaluate the verification system and implement changes as necessary within 60 days after notifying the appropriate congressional committees (within two years for a major change). Prohibits implementation of a major change unless the Congress provides funds for such purpose. Authorizes related demonstration projects of up to three years.

 

Limits the use of such verification system or any required identification document to enforcing this Act and not for other law enforcement purposes.

 

Directs the Attorney General to establish complaint and investigation procedures which shall provide for: (1) individuals and entities to file written, signed complaints regarding potential hiring violations; (2) INS investigations of complaints with substantial probability of validity; (3) Department of Justice-initiated investigations; and (4) designation of a specific INS unit to prosecute such violations.

 

Sets forth employer sanction provisions. Provides for a six-month period of public education during which no employment violation penalties shall be imposed.

 

Provides for a subsequent 12-month period during which violators shall be issued warning citations. Defers enforcement for seasonal agricultural services.

 

Provides, at the end of such citation period, for graduated first and subsequent-offense civil penalties, injunctive remedies, or criminal penalties (for pattern or practice violations). Subjects violators to graduated civil penalties for related paperwork violations.

 

Directs the Attorney General to provide notice and, upon request, an administrative hearing in the case of a disputed penalty. States that: (1) judicial review of a final administrative penalty shall be in the U.S. court of appeals; and (2) suits to collect unpaid penalties shall be filed in U.S. district courts.

 

Makes it unlawful for an employer to require an employee to provide any type of financial guarantee or indemnity against any potential employment liability. Subjects violators, after notice and hearing opportunity, to a civil penalty for each violation and the return of any such amounts received.

 

States that such employer sanction provisions preempt State and local laws.

 

Requires the General Accounting Office (GAO) to submit to the Congress and to a specially created task force three annual reports regarding the operation of the employer sanction program, including a determination of whether a pattern of national origin discrimination has resulted. States that if the GAO report makes such a determination: (1) the task force shall so report to the Congress; and (2) the House and the Senate shall hold hearings within 60 days.

 

Terminates employer sanctions 30 days after receipt of the last GAO report if: (1) GAO finds a widespread pattern of discrimination has resulted from the employer sanctions; and (2) the Congress enacts a joint resolution within such 30-day period approving such findings.

 

Amends the Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act to subject farm labor contractors to the requirements of this Act, beginning seven months after enactment.

 

Directs the Attorney General, in consultation with the Secretary of Labor and the Secretary of Health and Human Services, to conduct a study of the use of a telephone system to verify the employment status of job applicants. Requires related congressional reports.

Directs the Comptroller General to: (1) investigate ways to reduce counterfeiting of social security account number cards; and (2) report to the appropriate congressional committees within one year.

 

Directs the Secretary of Health and Human Services, acting through the Social Security Administration and in cooperation with the Attorney General and the Secretary of Labor, to: (1) conduct a study of the feasibility of establishing a social security number validation system; and (2) report to the appropriate congressional committees within two years.

 

Makes it an unfair immigration-related employment practice for an employer of three or more persons to discriminate against any individual (other than an unauthorized alien) with respect to hiring, recruitment, firing, or referral for fee, because of such individual's origin or citizenship (or intended citizenship) status. States that it is not an unfair immigration-related employment practice to hire a U.S. citizen or national over an equally qualified alien.

 

Requires that complaints of violations of an immigration-related employment practice be filed with the Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices (established by this Act) within the Department of Justice. Prohibits the overlap of immigration-related discrimination complaints and discrimination complaints filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

 

Authorizes the Special Counsel to: (1) investigate complaints and determine (within 120 days) whether to bring such complaints before a specially trained administrative law judge; and (2) initiate investigations and complaints. Permits private actions if the Special Counsel does not file a complaint within such 120-day period. Sets forth related administrative provisions.

Makes it illegal to fraudulently misuse or manufacture entry or work documents.

 

Part B: Improvement of Enforcement and Services - States that essential elements of the immigration control and reform program established by this Act are increased enforcement and administrative activities of the Border Patrol, the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), and other appropriate Federal agencies.

 

Authorizes increased FY 1987 and 1988 appropriations for: (1) INS; and (2) the Executive Office of Immigration Review. Obligates increased funding in FY 1987 and 1988 for the border patrol.

 

Directs the Attorney General, from funds appropriated to the Department of Justice for INS, to provide for improved immigration and naturalization services and for enhanced community outreach and in-service personnel training.

 

Authorizes additional appropriations for wage and hour enforcement.

 

Revises the criminal penalties for the unlawful transportation of unauthorized aliens into the United States.

 

Authorizes a $35,000,000 immigration emergency fund to be established in the Treasury for necessary enforcement activities and related State and local reimbursements.

 

Permits the owner or operator of a railroad line, international bridge, or toll road to request the Attorney General to inspect and approve measures taken to prevent aliens from illegally crossing into the United States. States that such approved measures shall be prima facie evidence of compliance with obligations under such Act to prevent illegal entries.

Expresses the sense of the Congress that the immigration laws of the United States should be vigorously enforced, while taking care to protect the rights and safety of U.S. citizens and aliens.

 

Requires INS to have an owner's consent or a warrant before entering a farm or outdoor operations to interrogate persons to determine if undocumented aliens are present.

 

Prohibits the adjustment of status to permanent resident for violators of (nonimmigrant) visa terms.

 

Title II: Legalization - Directs the Attorney General to adjust to temporary resident status those aliens who: (1) apply within 18 months; (2) establish that they entered the United States before January 1, 1982, and have resided here continuously in an unlawful status (including Cuban/Haitian entrants) since such date; and (3) are otherwise admissible.

 

Authorizes similar status adjustment for specified aliens who entered legally as nonimmigrants but whose period of authorized stay ended before January 1, 1982. (States that in the case of exchange visitors the two-year foreign residence requirement must have been met or waived.)

 

Prohibits the legalization of persons: (1) convicted of a felony or three or more misdemeanors in the United States; or (2) who have taken part in political, religious, or racial persecution. Requires an alien applying for temporary resident status to register under the Military Selective Service Act, if such Act so requires.

 

Directs the Attorney General to adjust the status of temporary resident aliens to permanent resident if the alien: (1) applies during the one-year period beginning with the 19th month following the grant of temporary resident status; (2) has established continuous residence in the United States since the grant of temporary resident status; (3) is otherwise admissible and has not been convicted of a felony or three or more misdemeanors committed in the United States; and (4) either meets the minimum requirements for an understanding of English and a knowledge of American history and government, or demonstrates the satisfactory pursuit of a course of study in these subjects. (Authorizes an exemption from such language and history requirement for individuals 65 years of age or older.)

 

Specifies circumstances in which the Attorney General may terminate an alien's temporary resident status. Permits travel abroad and employment during such period.

 

Authorizes the filing of status adjustment applications with the Attorney General or designated voluntary or governmental agencies. Directs the Attorney General to work with such agencies to: (1) disseminate program information; and (2) process aliens. Provides for the confidential treatment of application records. Establishes criminal penalties (fines, imprisonment, or both) for: (1) violations of such confidentiality; and (2) false application statements. Provides for application fees.

 

Waives numerical limitations, labor certification, and other specified entry violations for such aliens. Permits the Attorney General to waive other grounds for exclusion (except criminal, most drug-related, and security grounds) to assure family unity or when otherwise in the national interest.

 

Requires the Attorney General to provide an alien otherwise eligible but unregistered who is apprehended before the end of the application period, an opportunity to apply for the legalization program before deportation or exclusion proceedings are begun. States that such alien shall be authorized to work in the United States pending disposition of the case.

 

Provides for administrative and judicial review of a determination respecting an application for adjustment of status under this Act.

 

Makes legalized aliens (other than Cuban/Haitian entrants) ineligible for Federal financial assistance, Medicaid (with certain exceptions), or food stamps for five years following a grant of temporary resident status and for five years following a grant of permanent resident status (permits aid to the aged, blind, or disabled). States that programs authorized under the National School Lunch Act, the Child Nutrition Act of 1966, the Vocational Education Act of 1963, chapter 1 of the Education Consolidation and Improvement Act of 1981, the Headstart-Follow Through Act, the Job Training Partnership Act, title IV of the Higher Education Act of 1965, the Public Health Service Act, and titles V, XVI, and XX of the Social Security Act shall not be construed as prohibited assistance. Continues assistance to aliens under the Refugee Education Assistance Act of 1980 without regard to adjustment of status.

 

Requires the Attorney General to disseminate information regarding the legalization program.

 

Establishes procedures for the status adjustment to permanent resident of certain Cuban and Haitian entrants who arrived in the United States before January 1, 1982.

 

Updates from June 30, 1948, to January 1, 1972, the registry date for permanent entry admissions records.

 

Authorizes FY 1988 through 1991 appropriations for State legalization impact assistance grants. Permits States to spend unused funds through FY 1994. Prohibits offsets for Medicaid and supplemental security income costs. Bases State amounts on the number of legalized aliens and related expenditures. Permits States to use such funds to reimburse public assistance, health, and education costs. Limits reimbursement to actual costs.

 

Title III: Reform of Legal Immigration - Part A: Temporary Agricultural Workers - Separates temporary agricultural labor from other temporary labor for purposes of nonimmigrant (H-2A visa) worker provisions.

 

Requires an employer H-2A visa petition to certify that: (1) there are not enough local U.S. workers for the job; and (2) similarly employed U.S. workers' wages and working conditions will not be adversely affected. Authorizes the Secretary of Labor to charge application fees.

 

Prohibits the Secretary from approving such petition if: (1) the job is open because of a strike or lock-out; (2) the employer violated temporary worker admissions terms; (3) in a case where such workers are not covered by State workers' compensation laws, the employer has not provided equivalent protection at no cost to such workers; or (4) the employer has not made regional recruitment efforts in the traditional or expected labor supply.

 

Provides with regard to agricultural worker applications that: (1) the Secretary may not require such an application to be filed more than 60 days before needed; (2) the employer shall be notified in writing within seven days if the application requires perfecting; (3) the Secretary shall approve an acceptable application not later than 20 days before needed; and (4) the employer shall provide or secure housing meeting appropriate Federal, State, or local standards, including making provision for family housing for employees principally engaged in the range production of livestock.

 

Provides that for three years, labor certifications for specified employers shall require such an employer to hire qualified U.S. workers who apply until the end of 50 percent of the H-2A workers' contract work period. Requires the Secretary, six months before the end of such period, to consider the advisability of continuing such requirement and to issue regulations (in the absence of enacting legislation) three months before the end of such period.

 

States that employers shall not be liable for specified employment penalties if H-2A workers are dismissed in order to meet such 50 percent requirement.

 

Permits agricultural producer associations to file H-2A petitions.

 

Provides for expedited administrative appeals of denied certifications.

 

Prohibits the entry of an alien as an H-2A worker if he or she has violated a term of admission within the previous five years.

 

Authorizes permanent appropriations beginning with FY 1987 for the purposes of: (1) recruiting domestic workers for temporary labor and services which might otherwise be performed by nonimmigrants and agricultural transition workers; and (2) monitoring terms and conditions under which such individuals are employed.

 

Authorizes permanent appropriations beginning in FY 1987 to enable the Secretary to make determinations and certifications.

 

Expresses the sense of the Congress that the President should establish an advisory commission to consult with Mexico and other appropriate countries and advise the Attorney General regarding the temporary worker program.

 

Establishes a special agricultural worker adjustment program. Provides for permanent resident adjustment for aliens who: (1) apply during a specified 18-month period; (2) have performed at least 90 man-days of seasonal agricultural work during the 12-month period ending May 1, 1986; and (3) are admissible as immigrants. Sets forth adjustment dates based upon periods of work performed in the United States. Authorizes travel and employment during such temporary residence period.

 

Authorizes applications to be made inside the United States with the Attorney General or designated entities and outside the United States through consular offices. Provides for confidentiality and limited access to such information. Establishes criminal penalties for false application information, and makes an alien so convicted inadmissible for U.S. entry.

 

Exempts such admissions from numerical entry limitations.

 

Permits waiver of exclusion (except for specified criminal, drug offense, public charge, Nazi persecution, and national security grounds) for humanitarian or family purposes, or when in the national interest.

 

Provides for a temporary stay of exclusion or deportation (and authority to work) for apprehended aliens who are able to establish a nonfrivolous claim for status adjustment.

 

Provides for a single level of administrative appellate review of such status adjustment applications. Limits such review of the order of exclusion or deportation.

 

Defines "seasonal agricultural services" as the performance of field work related to growing fruits and vegetables of every kind and other perishable commodities as defined in regulations by the Secretary of Agriculture.

 

Directs the Secretaries of Agriculture and of Labor, jointly before each fiscal year (beginning in FY 1990 and ending in FY 1993) to determine whether additional special agricultural workers should be admitted because of a shortage of such workers in the United States. Sets forth factors to be considered in making such determinations.

 

Authorizes associations and groups of employers to request additional admissions due to emergency or unforeseen circumstances. Authorizes groups of special agricultural workers to request decreased admissions due to worker oversupply. Requires the Secretaries to make request determinations within 21 days.

 

Sets forth numerical limitations for such admissions beginning with FY 1990.

 

Provides for the deportation of newly admitted special agricultural workers who do not perform 60 man-days of seasonal agricultural work in each of the first two years after entry. Prohibits naturalization of such workers unless they have performed 60 man-days of such work in each of five fiscal years.

 

Treats temporary agricultural workers and special agricultural workers as "eligible legalized aliens" for purposes of Federal assistance to State and local entities for specified costs associated with such workers during their first five years in the United States.

 

Establishes a 12-member Commission on Agricultural Workers to review the special agricultural worker provisions, the impact of the legalization and employer sanctions on agricultural labor, and other aspects of agricultural labor. Requires a report to the Congress within five years. Authorizes appropriations. Terminates the Commission at the end of the 63-month period beginning with the month after the month of enactment of this Act.

 

States that specified agricultural workers shall be eligible for legal assistance under the Legal Service Corporation Act.

 

Part B: Other Changes in the Immigration Law - Increases the annual colonial quota from 600 visas to 5,000 visas.

 

Includes within the definition of "special immigrant": (1) unmarried sons and daughters and surviving spouses of employees of certain international organizations; and (2) specified retirees of such organizations ("I" status) and their spouses.

 

Grants nonimmigrant status to: (1) parents of children receiving "I" status while they are minors; and (2) other children of such parents or a surviving "I" status spouse.

 

Authorizes the three-year pilot visa waiver program for up to eight countries providing similar benefits to U.S. visitors. Requires such visitors to the United States to: (1) have a nonrefundable roundtrip ticket; and (2) stay in the United States for not more than 90 days.

 

Authorizes an additional 5000 nonpreference visas in each of FY 1987 and 1988 with preference being given to nationals of countries who were adversely affected by Public Law 89-236 (1965 immigration amendments).

Includes the relationship between an illegitimate child and its natural father within the definition of "child" for purposes of status, benefits, or privilege under such Act.

 

States that for suspension of deportation purposes, an alien shall not be considered to have failed to maintain continuous physical presence in the United States if the absence did not meaningfully interrupt the continuous physical presence.

 

Prohibits for one year the admission of nonimmigrant alien crew members to perform services during a strike against the employer for whom such aliens intend to work.

 

Title IV: Reports - Directs the President to transmit to the Congress: (1) not later than January 1, 1989, and not later than January 1 of every third year thereafter, a comprehensive immigration-impact report; and (2) annual reports for three years on unauthorized alien employment and the temporary agricultural worker (H-2A) program.

 

Directs the Attorney General and the Secretary of State to jointly monitor the visa waiver program established by this Act, and report to the Congress within two years.

 

Directs the President to submit to the Congress an initial and a second report (three years after the first report) on the impact of the legalization program.

 

Directs the Attorney General to report to the Congress within 90 days regarding necessary improvements for INS.

 

Expresses the sense of the Congress that the President should consult with the President of Mexico within 90 days regarding the implementation of this Act and its possible effect on the United States or Mexico.

 

Title V: State Assistance for Incarceration Costs of Illegal Aliens and Certain Cuban Nationals - Directs the Attorney General to reimburse States for the costs incurred in incarcerating certain illegal aliens and Cuban nationals convicted of felonies. Authorizes appropriations.

 

Title VI: Commission for the Study of International Migration and Cooperative Economic Development - Establishes a 12-member Commission for the Study of International Migration and Cooperative Economic Development to examine, in consultation with Mexico and other Western Hemisphere sending countries, conditions which contribute to unauthorized migration to the United States and trade and investment programs to alleviate such conditions. Requires a report to the President and to the Congress within three years. Terminates the Commission upon filing of such report, except that the Commission may function for up to 30 additional days to conclude its affairs.

Title VII: Federal Responsibility for Deportable and Excludable Aliens Convicted of Crimes - Provides for the expeditious deportation of aliens convicted of crimes.

 

Provides for the identification of Department of Defense facilities that could be made available to incarcerate deportable or excludable aliens.

[Balta1701]

Tell me if you have heard this all before... All of those same talking points are in there again 25 years later. Work programs, verification, enforcement, etc. You are right, we didn't create a long term fix, and it won't 25 years later.

 

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d0.../d099query.html

But no actual fix to the immigration quotas.

[southsider2k5]

But no actual fix to the immigration quotas.

 

So that one thing is going to solve everything? OK.

[Balta1701]

So that one thing is going to solve everything? OK.

On it's own no...but failing to fix it guarantees that anything else you try will fail.

 

You've got an old, run down bridge, needs new paint, needs paving, but also needs a pillar that is in the process of collapsing replaced...no matter how good of a paint job or paving job you do, the thing's going to collapse if you don't fix that part.

[southsider2k5]

On it's own no...but failing to fix it guarantees that anything else you try will fail.

 

You've got an old, run down bridge, needs new paint, needs paving, but also needs a pillar that is in the process of collapsing replaced...no matter how good of a paint job or paving job you do, the thing's going to collapse if you don't fix that part.

 

The argument all along hasn't been fixing quotas. It has been job programs, and enforcement, and verification. All of which we have done. Quotas have zero effect on people who are going to break the rules anyway.

[Soxbadger]

Quotas have zero effect on people who are going to break the rules anyway.

 

If you remove the rule, they cant break it anymore.

 

So not only am I against changing the 14th amendment, Im for making it so that everyone can become an American citizen who wants to.

 

Remove all quotas, remove all unnecessary restrictions, let freedom ring.

 

When you open up the Immigration debate, you have to remember that there are people in the United States who strongly oppose the idea of restricting who can enter into our country. It would be amazing if the people of the United States could turn this on its head, and make it so that we allow everyone in the world a chance to have the freedom that so many of us take for granted.

 

Freedom for all, not just for those of us who got here first.

[Balta1701]

The argument all along hasn't been fixing quotas. It has been job programs, and enforcement, and verification. All of which we have done. Quotas have zero effect on people who are going to break the rules anyway.

The job program is what I mean when I refer to the quota. If you have jobs that are going unfulfilled by the legal immigration quotas, you are going to guarantee yourself an illegal immigration problem. That's the pillar that went unfixed. You can do all the enforcement mechanisms you want, all the billion dollar fences, all the thousands of troops and drones on the border, all of the employer inspections, all the employer verifications...and no matter what you do, you won't be able to prevent a supply from appearing to fill a demand.

 

Now that I write that...try the drug war metaphor. We've dumped hundreds of billions of dollars into trying to eradicate supply, to interdict supply, to do whatever we can to prevent it from getting here...but despite all of that, the war on drugs is an abject failure because there continues to be demand for the product.

[EvilMonkey]

Freedom for all, not just for those of us who got here first.

I don't mean this to sound as glib as it does, but that sounds rather nice. now put that into action and see this country fail even faster. Wanting to help your fellow man is a good thing, but helping them to the detriment of you and your own family/country is a bad thing. You can feed a starving man your food once in a while, but if you feed every starving man every time, you will soon join them.

[NorthSideSox72]

If you remove the rule, they cant break it anymore.

 

So not only am I against changing the 14th amendment, Im for making it so that everyone can become an American citizen who wants to.

 

Remove all quotas, remove all unnecessary restrictions, let freedom ring.

 

When you open up the Immigration debate, you have to remember that there are people in the United States who strongly oppose the idea of restricting who can enter into our country. It would be amazing if the people of the United States could turn this on its head, and make it so that we allow everyone in the world a chance to have the freedom that so many of us take for granted.

 

Freedom for all, not just for those of us who got here first.

The phrase "economic catastrophe" comes to mind.

 

The burden that illegals put on the system now is nothing compared to what you'd get if you flung open the doors like that. Your idea is nice in fantasy land, but here in reality, it would be a disaster.

 

[kapkomet]

If you make it easier to become a legal citizen, I believe most reasonable people would also agree that you can more strictly enforce illegal immigration.

 

I assume that there are other people like me who do not want to enforce illegal immigration laws, because we really do not believe in them. I do not believe that freedom should be "First come first serve", but instead that the path to freedom should be available to all that seek it.

 

So if everyone could come to the US legally, I would have no problem being a hard ass on those who still came here illegally. I would have no crisis of conscience because I would know that the people who came here illegally had the opportunity to come here legally, but just chose not to.

 

Conversely, today I feel bad for illegal immigrants because I feel the majority would have come here legally if there were not so many unreasonable barriers to their entry. I do not feel that unjust laws should be enforced, so I do not believe illegals should be deported.

 

I absolutely agree... except to say that somehow you have to enforce the law or make it such that there is no path for current illegals to citizenship, however you do that. In other words, give them a legal way through their home country to come back, and most people don't have a problem with that.

[southsider2k5]

If you remove the rule, they cant break it anymore.

 

So not only am I against changing the 14th amendment, Im for making it so that everyone can become an American citizen who wants to.

 

Remove all quotas, remove all unnecessary restrictions, let freedom ring.

 

When you open up the Immigration debate, you have to remember that there are people in the United States who strongly oppose the idea of restricting who can enter into our country. It would be amazing if the people of the United States could turn this on its head, and make it so that we allow everyone in the world a chance to have the freedom that so many of us take for granted.

 

Freedom for all, not just for those of us who got here first.

 

Are you open to an effective 50% tax rate to pay for everyone?

[Soxbadger]

I don't mean this to sound as glib as it does, but that sounds rather nice. now put that into action and see this country fail even faster. Wanting to help your fellow man is a good thing, but helping them to the detriment of you and your own family/country is a bad thing. You can feed a starving man your food once in a while, but if you feed every starving man every time, you will soon join them.

 

Thats what you believe, I respectfully disagree. I believe that if the govt stopped wasting money on the war on drugs, stopped wasting money on trying to enforce an imaginary border to keep out people seeking freedom, the US economy would rebound rapidly.

 

The United States already pays for millions of illegal immigrants, at least if they were legal they would have to pay taxes. I dont believe every immigrant will be a starving man, I think that many immigrants are hard workers who will become invaluable members of American society. I think historically there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that immigration hurts an economy. In fact if you look at the numbers, the worst economic disaster in US history occurred when there were the most restrictive immigration measures.

 

http://www.npg.org/facts/us_imm_decade.htm

 

Conversely in 1901-1920, when there was the most legal immigrations by percentage (obviously today 9mil is a smaller percent of the total population as compared to 1901) the US economy was thriving. I wont just assume that there is going to be some unproven correlation between immigration and the US failing.

 

In fact I think that restricting immigration undermines capitalist society.

 

Capitalism works when you have a supply/demand curve that the govt doesnt interfere with. Labor is no different than any other commodity, it is based on supply and demand. When the US govt restricts immigration, it is artificially restricting supply.

 

What happens when you restrict supply even though demand stays the same?

 

The cost of the good increases artificially. What are the impacts of this? The US loses jobs to overseas markets where there is less restriction on the labor commodity. By allowing for more supply of labor, you will be able to lower costs for US employers, companies etc, which would allow them to compete more world wide.

 

Many immigrants were the backbone of US labor in the late 19th and early 20th century. The US economy boomed because you could pay immigrant workers far less than some one from the US.

 

So until proven otherwise, I wont just blindly believe that immigrants are going to bankrupt the US economy. In fact I would guess that having more legal immigrants would increase the tax pool and end up making the US money.

 

The phrase "economic catastrophe" comes to mind.

 

The burden that illegals put on the system now is nothing compared to what you'd get if you flung open the doors like that. Your idea is nice in fantasy land, but here in reality, it would be a disaster.

 

Points up.

 

I really disagree. Any country who bases their economy on the economic theory of capitalism, should never want to restrict supply on labor. Restricting labor as well as anartificial floor on wages is the best way to make your country uncompetitive on the world market.

 

I would be really interested to see an economist write on this subject. Im completely blanking on my economic theory and cant think of the one who said that everything adds to the pie (including crime). Here is one of the few articles I can find, it uses data to state what should be the obvious, restricting immigration will hurt the economy.

 

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1653345

 

"Specifically, we find that these laws had a 1 to 2 percent negative effect on employment; for the average U.S. county, this translates to about 337 to 675 jobs (40 to 80 jobs for the median county). Consistent with the effect on employment, payroll was also negatively affected. This drop in employment includes both authorized and unauthorized workers"

 

Id love to see some articles the other way, I just know that all of my "conservative" economics professors were against any sort of govt regulation of the supply of labor.

 

I absolutely agree... except to say that somehow you have to enforce the law or make it such that there is no path for current illegals to citizenship, however you do that. In other words, give them a legal way through their home country to come back, and most people don't have a problem with that.

 

I will never support a program that wants to punish current illegal immigrants in the United States. I am not the keeper of freedom, it belongs to everyone who wishes to enjoy it.

 

I am fine with making them properly apply and pay taxes like any other citizen and be required to have the same responsibilities as any citizen.

 

Are you open to an effective 50% tax rate to pay for everyone?

 

Im not sure why that would happen. As pointed on in my previous statements, I believe that economic theory suggests that by not restricting the supply of labor the economy should improve.

 

Furthermore if you look at historical data, the US tax rates were the lowest during the highest rates of immigration. http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/fed_ind...ry-june2010.pdf

 

Even stranger in 1932, one of the years immigration is the lowest during the great depression, taxes jump to a cap at 63%. 1936 the top is 79%. In 1944 the highest tax bracket was 90%. 12 years earlier when immigration was at one of its all time highs, taxes were capped at 25%.

 

It wasnt until 1964 that taxes are dropped to 70%. 81 drop to 50%. And so on and so forth.

 

Im not going to argue whether high taxes are good or bad, but what I think should be clear is that tax rates and immigration do not have any correlation, unless you consider a negative one.

 

When immigration rates were increasing, taxes were either staying the same or decreasing.

 

The only time immigration was drastically restricted, taxes increased to ridiculous levels as well as the US suffering the worst economic depression in its history.

 

Now were some of these actions a result of the great depression?

 

Of course, people in the US during the 1930's were saying the exact same thing as this thread.

 

"We are in bad economic times, we cant let immigrants in, theyll take our jobs and ruin our economy."

 

The problem is, immigrants are jobs, immigrants are consumers. There is no reason to believe that immigrants will be nothing but a net loss, almost all economic capitalist theory would suggest the opposite, immigrants should be a net gain.

 

But thats just my belief based on my knowledge of economic theory and US history. Id love to see some economists write on the subject, because Im just not convinced by talking heads.

 

I dont really like to argue about the economic impact because im willing to give the other side the benefit of the doubt and say that there might be some negative impact (even though I dont agree). I just think that giving people the chance to have freedom and to live in a free place is worth the risk that I may have to pay more taxes.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Soxbadger

[southsider2k5]

Judging things on the 20's and 30's doesn't work because there wasn't a massive social system in place. There was literally no negative impact for the government to have immigrants then. Now because of the last 75 years or so of massive expansion of government, it costs a ton of money for migrants to come here. It is a totally different animal.

[Soxbadger]

Then why does post WWII taxes go down as immigration goes up?

 

Just because the govt is bigger doesnt mean that immigrants cost more comparatively, as they would be paying into the system just like any other citizen.

 

The costs for an individual immigrant should be the same cost as an individual US citizen.

 

The only difference may be that the costs for each citizen have increased today, but that is why taxes are not capped at 25%.

[southsider2k5]

Then why does post WWII taxes go down as immigration goes up?

 

Just because the govt is bigger doesnt mean that immigrants cost more comparatively, as they would be paying into the system just like any other citizen.

 

The costs for an individual immigrant should be the same cost as an individual US citizen.

 

The only difference may be that the costs for each citizen have increased today, but that is why taxes are not capped at 25%.

 

They don't really. They come down for a few years after WWII, but then go back up over 90% for the 50's and into the 60's.

 

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

 

The costs for an immigrant aren't the same, because they aren't paying into the system over a full lifetime, they pay less on average in taxes than typical American's, and because of that bracket, they use more in social services.

 

And the costs for everyone have gone way up in the last 80 years because of the massive influx of government programs and social services that are out there now, which weren't before. Adding something like 12 to 20 million people will crush programs like social security, medicare, medicade, welfare, food stamps, etc.

[Soxbadger]

They don't really. They come down for a few years after WWII, but then go back up over 90% for the 50's and into the 60's.

 

Huh?

 

In World War II the tax rate was in the 90s's. In 1950 the tax rate was in the 90's. In 1964 the tax rate was in the 90's. In 2010 the tax rate is far lower than the 90's.

 

My first post clearly explains this:

 

 

Even stranger in 1932, one of the years immigration is the lowest during the great depression, taxes jump to a cap at 63%. 1936 the top is 79%. In 1944 the highest tax bracket was 90%. 12 years earlier when immigration was at one of its all time highs, taxes were capped at 25%.

 

It wasnt until 1964 that taxes are dropped to 70%. 81 drop to 50%. And so on and so forth.

 

The web page you linked shows the exact same trend as I pointed out.

 

Here are the immigration numbers:

 

1931-40

 

528,431

1941-50

 

1,035,039

1951-60

 

2,515,479

1961-70

 

3,321,677

1971-80

 

4,493,314

1981-90

 

7,338,062

 

As immigration increased from 1950 to 1990, taxes either remained constant, or decreased. Which is exactly what I said in my previous post:

 

When immigration rates were increasing, taxes were either staying the same or decreasing.

The only time immigration was drastically restricted, taxes increased to ridiculous levels as well as the US suffering the worst economic depression in its history.

 

 

So the website you posted, has the exact same facts and trends as I suggested. Tax rates went down after WWII (I never said instantly, I said from 1940 to 1990) and during that time period immigration increased.

 

And the costs for everyone have gone way up in the last 80 years because of the massive influx of government programs and social services that are out there now, which weren't before. Adding something like 12 to 20 million people will crush programs like social security, medicare, medicade, welfare, food stamps, etc.

 

This just doesnt make sense.

 

Social security, medicare and medicaid are supported by citizens. If we were to increase the amount of citizens you would 1) increase the amount of benefits given and 2) increase the amount of revenue raised.

 

It doesnt take a genius to create a system where immigrants will be legalized and get benefits respective to what they put into the system. Not everyone gets the same social security benefits, you can pay more money in, you can take money quicker, etc.

 

I dont think any rationale person would suggest that an immigrant who is 65 and comes to the US and is then given citizenship is deserving of the same social security benefits as some one who paid into the system for 45 years.

 

I do think its reasonable to allow immigrants to buy into the system at a higher percentage rate dependent on their age. Youd need some actuaries to figure out the math end of it, but it would not be to hard to figure out how much more money some one who is 35 entering the US would need to pay compared to some one who is 18 and compared to some one who is 65.

 

Illegal immigrants arent eligible for these programs. My guess is that most illegal immigrants would be willing to sacrifice entry into these programs if it meant they would become legal citizens and have all of the freedom America provides.

 

There are plenty of solutions to the monetary issues.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Soxbadger

[southsider2k5]

Huh?

 

In World War II the tax rate was in the 90s's. In 1950 the tax rate was in the 90's. In 1964 the tax rate was in the 90's. In 2010 the tax rate is far lower than the 90's.

 

My first post clearly explains this:

 

 

 

 

The web page you linked shows the exact same trend as I pointed out.

 

Here are the immigration numbers:

 

1931-40

 

528,431

1941-50

 

1,035,039

1951-60

 

2,515,479

1961-70

 

3,321,677

1971-80

 

4,493,314

1981-90

 

7,338,062

 

As immigration increased from 1950 to 1990, taxes either remained constant, or decreased. Which is exactly what I said in my previous post:

 

 

 

 

So the website you posted, has the exact same facts and trends as I suggested. Tax rates went down after WWII (I never said instantly, I said from 1940 to 1990) and during that time period immigration increased.

 

 

 

This just doesnt make sense.

 

Social security, medicare and medicaid are supported by citizens. If we were to increase the amount of citizens you would 1) increase the amount of benefits given and 2) increase the amount of revenue raised.

 

It doesnt take a genius to create a system where immigrants will be legalized and get benefits respective to what they put into the system. Not everyone gets the same social security benefits, you can pay more money in, you can take money quicker, etc.

 

I dont think any rationale person would suggest that an immigrant who is 65 and comes to the US and is then given citizenship is deserving of the same social security benefits as some one who paid into the system for 45 years.

 

I do think its reasonable to allow immigrants to buy into the system at a higher percentage rate dependent on their age. Youd need some actuaries to figure out the math end of it, but it would not be to hard to figure out how much more money some one who is 35 entering the US would need to pay compared to some one who is 18 and compared to some one who is 65.

 

Illegal immigrants arent eligible for these programs. My guess is that most illegal immigrants would be willing to sacrifice entry into these programs if it meant they would become legal citizens and have all of the freedom America provides.

 

There are plenty of solutions to the monetary issues.

 

And the deficit has gone...

[Soxbadger]

Im not about to get into a deficit spending debate because I think it has nothing to do with the argument.

 

But if youd like a concise argument on the deficit:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USDebt.png

 

Deficit spikes during World War II, which makes sense with the govt spending more in war time production.

 

Deficit then decreases until 1980.

 

What happens in the early 1980's that could possible cause the deficit to increase. (See previous post, It wasnt until 1964 that taxes are dropped to 70%. 81 drop to 50%)

 

When population remains constant and taxes decrease, the only logical outcome is revenues decreasing. If govt spending increases while revenue decreases, you have debt.

 

I understand the theory behind supply side economics, but it just hasnt seem to work in practice. Here is a 1982 article from Cato:http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=879

 

At least in the short run, the deficit can be reduced by either budget cuts or tax increases.

 

Now of course as its a CATO article they argue that tax increases have negative impact, and I agree that a certain point they do, I just think we have yet to determine that threshold.

 

But there is no evidence to suggest any correlation between the deficit and immigration. Immigration increased from 1950-1980 while the deficit decreased. It wasnt until Reagan took office that the deficit became out of control.

 

A stark reminder that just because you say your small govt doesnt mean that you are.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Soxbadger

[southsider2k5]

Im not about to get into a deficit spending debate because I think it has nothing to do with the argument.

 

But if youd like a concise argument on the deficit:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USDebt.png

 

Deficit spikes during World War II, which makes sense with the govt spending more in war time production.

 

Deficit then decreases until 1980.

 

What happens in the early 1980's that could possible cause the deficit to increase. (See previous post, It wasnt until 1964 that taxes are dropped to 70%. 81 drop to 50%)

 

When population remains constant and taxes decrease, the only logical outcome is revenues decreasing. If govt spending increases while revenue decreases, you have debt.

 

I understand the theory behind supply side economics, but it just hasnt seem to work in practice. Here is a 1982 article from Cato:http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=879

 

 

 

Now of course as its a CATO article they argue that tax increases have negative impact, and I agree that a certain point they do, I just think we have yet to determine that threshold.

 

But there is no evidence to suggest any correlation between the deficit and immigration. Immigration increased from 1950-1980 while the deficit decreased. It wasnt until Reagan took office that the deficit became out of control.

 

A stark reminder that just because you say your small govt doesnt mean that you are.

 

Its funny you mention the last President to grant a mass amnesty as evidence...

[Soxbadger]

Why is that funny?

 

The amnesty act was passed in 1986. The deficit didnt occur because of the amnesty act. Im not sure if these numbers are right but im to lazy to use FRASER (Federal archive for economic research).

 

 

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-debt-o...ited-states.htm

 

1980 $711.9

1981 $789.4

1982 $924.6

1983 $1,137.3

1984 $1,307.0

1985 $1,507.3

1986 $1,740.6

1987 $1,889.8

1988 $2,051.6

1989 $2,190.7

 

Strange that after the amnesty act, the debt actually grows at a slower pace. Almost as if the amnesty had no impact on the US debt...

 

Seems to support the idea that allowing more legal immigrants wont all of a sudden bankrupt America because: " immigrants are jobs, immigrants are consumers. There is no reason to believe that immigrants will be nothing but a net loss, almost all economic capitalist theory would suggest the opposite, immigrants should be a net gain."