What moves have come back to bite Kenny?

[NorthSideSox72]

The top of the last three drafts have been quite good...

 

2008 gave us Beckham, Hudson, Morel and D2.

 

2009 gave us some good results too, they just had injury issues this year that were big: Mitchell, Phegley, Thompson, Holmberg.

 

2010 has looked good so far, with Sale, and nice performances from Reed, Petricka and Wilkins

 

Keep in mind too, that 2009 batch his a weird injury bug, but Mitchell and Thompson project to be back at strength later this year. I'd bet that a year from now, the system will look a lot better than you think, assuming we don't trade away a whole bunch more of the farm.

 

There are also a couple other guys who were highly thought of that spent a year off on injury and are just now coming back: Nevin Griffith and Jose Martinez.

 

I think the drafting and development were bad for a while, but under the new regime, things are looking up.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

By the way, you want to see a bad draft, look at 2006. Wow. One major leaguer on that list (Kanekoa Teixeira), and no one else who looks like they'll make it, ever.

 

[RockRaines]

No chance.

 

I guarantee he has recently passed waivers.

Cleared Waivers you mean?

 

And the answer is no.

[RockRaines]

The top of the last three drafts have been quite good...

 

2008 gave us Beckham, Hudson, Morel and D2.

 

2009 gave us some good results too, they just had injury issues this year that were big: Mitchell, Phegley, Thompson, Holmberg.

 

2010 has looked good so far, with Sale, and nice performances from Reed, Petricka and Wilkins

 

Keep in mind too, that 2009 batch his a weird injury bug, but Mitchell and Thompson project to be back at strength later this year. I'd bet that a year from now, the system will look a lot better than you think, assuming we don't trade away a whole bunch more of the farm.

 

There are also a couple other guys who were highly thought of that spent a year off on injury and are just now coming back: Nevin Griffith and Jose Martinez.

 

I think the drafting and development were bad for a while, but under the new regime, things are looking up.

The last 3 drafts have been very good. That 09 draft was looking like a really great one until the injury bug hit.

 

Out of those 3 drafts alone, we are looking at at least 10 MLB players IMO.

[Quin]

The last 3 drafts have been very good. That 09 draft was looking like a really great one until the injury bug hit.

 

Out of those 3 drafts alone, we are looking at at least 10 MLB players IMO.

 

And that works real well.

[caulfield12]

The question with Allen is whether he would be good enough to start for the White Sox in 2011 and replace Konerko?

 

I don't think the answer there is yes, I think it's MAYBE, as part of a platoon. Theoretically, you could have Viciedo and Allen together, that would be a nice tandem. Somehow, Teahen would have to fit into the picture, the same player who doesn't really fit unless you logically bench Kotsay, which Guillen may or may not do.

 

An athletic, cost-controlled 1B who will get you 350 AB's is worth more than a back-end reliever, FWIW. The problem is that Carter hasn't proven he can even put up an 800 OPS at that position.

 

Carter's a bit of a different story, but are you going to give up Quentin's production in 2008 and 2010 to get Carter back for 2011? That's clearly a huge debate, and 90% of the board will come down on the side of CQ, injuries aside, because proven MLB production almost always trumps potential, unless you're talking a Mike Stanton, Josh Hamilton, Miguel Cabrera type of impact bat, and Carter's clearly not in that category.

 

To tell the truth, I'm not even sure KW would trade Viciedo for Carter straight up. Maybe.

[Pumpkin Escobar]

It seems like Kenny's small deals are always the best deals.

 

Borchard for Thornton

McCarthy for Danks

Carter for Quentin

 

 

I'm not so fast to agree with the Quentin one.

 

He has immense talent and has proven more at the mlb level but realistically, removing 08' success, he isn't a bonafide lock, year in and year out to be a superstar. Even this year, he has been great of late but started horribly and it's almost as if we just wait for him to get hurt.

 

Now sure I'd do the deal years ago, but had we waited a year where Carter developed more power and a better approach, I'm not so sure KW does the deal. CQ wouldve still been in the minors in Zona, maybe up, but how would he have done there? It's all catch 22.

 

And the biggest problem with injury guys is even if things are going red hot, like for exmaple, a Josh Hamilton, you still are just waiting for it to collapse. If you aren't, and you know their history, well then you aren't preparing for your job the best way possible and covering your bets.

 

Carter may not ever do what Quentin did in 08 but what'd that get us? The big thing is that having held out to carter, he would've been a chip to acquire someone perhaps more talented and less of a concern then CQ (IE a player like Haren for the dbacks). So I'm not so sure that is a lock that he won that trade. Need some full seasons of Quentin where he is the player he was in 08 to gaurentee that.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I'm not so fast to agree with the Quentin one.

 

He has immense talent and has proven more at the mlb level but realistically, removing 08' success, he isn't a bonafide lock, year in and year out to be a superstar. Even this year, he has been great of late but started horribly and it's almost as if we just wait for him to get hurt.

 

Now sure I'd do the deal years ago, but had we waited a year where Carter developed more power and a better approach, I'm not so sure KW does the deal. CQ wouldve still been in the minors in Zona, maybe up, but how would he have done there? It's all catch 22.

 

And the biggest problem with injury guys is even if things are going red hot, like for exmaple, a Josh Hamilton, you still are just waiting for it to collapse. If you aren't, and you know their history, well then you aren't preparing for your job the best way possible and covering your bets.

 

Carter may not ever do what Quentin did in 08 but what'd that get us? The big thing is that having held out to carter, he would've been a chip to acquire someone perhaps more talented and less of a concern then CQ (IE a player like Haren for the dbacks). So I'm not so sure that is a lock that he won that trade. Need some full seasons of Quentin where he is the player he was in 08 to gaurentee that.

 

So basically, he has to be a perenially MVP winner before you will believe Quentin is better than Chris Carter? As far as I know, Chris Carter has yet to record a hit in the major leagues. Carter had a great 2008, but so did Quentin. The difference is that Quentin did it in the majors, not A-ball. I realize that Carter is younger than Quentin, but Quentin has shown what he can be at the MLB level, and that's an MVP. Carter has shown he can be a minor league MVP, but has not done a damn thing yet for the A's.

 

Until Carter does something good in the majors, this is a win for us.

[chisoxt]

You are flat out nuts....

 

Peavy is only owed $50,000,000!!!!!!

 

Let me put it this way so even the most baseball stupid can understand:

There isn't a team in baseball that would take Peavy for a bag of balls, even if you packaged him with Gordon Beckham

 

Factor in that Richard appears to be a bona fide major league baseball player under team control for several years, and that makes your post the worst I have seen on this message board. EVER.

 

I love KW but saying that the Peavy deal is currently a good deal is blind ignorance.

Agreed. I am amazed how much fans chase 'past performance' in evaluating trades and a player's worth. The questions to consider are

1. How good will the player perform for YOUR team?

2. How much going forwaed will the player be paid and will it be commensuarte with #1?

3. How healthy is the player and how old is he?

 

In the case of Peavy, he is not that old, but was owed a ton of money and had an injury history as long as my arm.,Other than that 2007, his career record was not that great considering he pitched in a huge hitters ballpark, San Diego. For Kenny to pull this trade off was downright reckless.

 

I know Kenny wants to win badly, but I wonder if he makes thse types of deals with the confidence knowing that he already has a WC under his belt and Uncle jerry is ready to hand him a cushy 'John Paxon-like' job one day where he can hide behind another GM.

Edited August 13, 2010 by chisoxt

[MattZakrowski]

Richard hasnt proven s*** and none of the other players have either. Peavy is a bona fide top of the rotation starter and at least 75 percent of the teams in the league would take him from us with no questions asked.

 

Here's a translation for the baseball retarded: Peavy good.

 

 

And I probably only have to scour YOUR posts to find many more worse than mine, and thats probably only this summer.

 

Even if Peavy is a better pitcher than Richard (when not on the DL), he makes an absurd amount of money for what he is now. Peavy's an above average guy, but even when healthy he was the #3 here. We could have put that money to use in acquiring a better DH/LF/3B.

 

One thing I took from this deal is that in the future, I hope we do the majority of our free market spending on positional guys, because having a pitcher with a huge contract is dangerous, considering the nature of pitching and the associated injuries.

[chisoxt]

Even if Peavy is a better pitcher than Richard (when not on the DL), he makes an absurd amount of money for what he is now. Peavy's an above average guy, but even when healthy he was the #3 here. We could have put that money to use in acquiring a better DH/LF/3B.

 

One thing I took from this deal is that in the future, I hope we do the majority of our free market spending on positional guys, because having a pitcher with a huge contract is dangerous, considering the nature of pitching and the associated injuries.

I frankly wish that someday, we will actually develop and, you know, actually keep some of the younger guys. Williams strategy of dealing prospects for older and expensive veteran talent may work fine as long as you have a solid veteran core that is under your control for several years. But when those veterans leave or (get old and bad) as will be the case with AJ, Paulie, Jenks (this year) and perhaps Buehrle and Thorton (next year), then what? I guess that's when Kenny kicks himself upstairs and sticks those tough decesions to Rick Han to figure out.

Edited August 13, 2010 by chisoxt

[BigSqwert]

What moves have come back to bite Kenny?

 

Not getting a DH in 2010.

[caulfield12]

You could put this year's DH fiasco right up there with the year (maybe it was 2007) that we didn't have any veteran relievers (specifically loogies) and we auditioned about 13 of them in Spring Training.

 

Even though it was the last position on the baseball team, the relief problems stuck around for most of that season, with the exception of Jenks being very good (I think that was the year he had his streak of innings without giving up a run, yes?)

[Quin]

You could put this year's DH fiasco right up there with the year (maybe it was 2007) that we didn't have any veteran relievers (specifically loogies) and we auditioned about 13 of them in Spring Training.

 

Even though it was the last position on the baseball team, the relief problems stuck around for most of that season, with the exception of Jenks being very good (I think that was the year he had his streak of innings without giving up a run, yes?)

 

Yes, 2007 was when Jenks retired 41 straight.

[dmbjeff]

Yes, 2007 was when Jenks retired 41 straight.

 

and 2007 made me stop watching sox games in august because of how terrible they were. the crap they kept throwing out there in CF was horrible that season. at least that year helped us get beckham, gave danks and floyd their first year to work out the kinks.

[Balta1701]

You could put this year's DH fiasco right up there with the year (maybe it was 2007) that we didn't have any veteran relievers (specifically loogies) and we auditioned about 13 of them in Spring Training.

 

Even though it was the last position on the baseball team, the relief problems stuck around for most of that season, with the exception of Jenks being very good (I think that was the year he had his streak of innings without giving up a run, yes?)

2006 was when the LOOGY wildness started, they brought in a series of guys to compete for the spot in ST, most of them turned into Randy Williams and the one who pitched the best was Boone Logan. He was behind Cotts and Thornton, but Cotts started to implode that year also.

 

2007 Kenny tried a more through overhaul of the bullpen, bringing in heavy arms. He brought in MMac in mid 2006 and MacDougal had performed well, he brought in Sisco and AAardsma, to go along with Thornton, Jenks, Masset, and Logan...and that was the year that everyone except Jenks and Thornton imploded.

[chisoxt]

The top of the last three drafts have been quite good...

 

2008 gave us Beckham, Hudson, Morel and D2.

 

2009 gave us some good results too, they just had injury issues this year that were big: Mitchell, Phegley, Thompson, Holmberg.

 

2010 has looked good so far, with Sale, and nice performances from Reed, Petricka and Wilkins

 

Keep in mind too, that 2009 batch his a weird injury bug, but Mitchell and Thompson project to be back at strength later this year. I'd bet that a year from now, the system will look a lot better than you think, assuming we don't trade away a whole bunch more of the farm.

 

There are also a couple other guys who were highly thought of that spent a year off on injury and are just now coming back: Nevin Griffith and Jose Martinez.

 

I think the drafting and development were bad for a while, but under the new regime, things are looking up.

Yes it has been good. But my sense is that many of these guys won't be around for long either, as was the case with Hudson. In today's economic climate, a team like the Sox has to control their payroll. Making moves like dealing young, inexpensive and decent players Gonzalez and Hudson and getting expensive vets like Linebrink, Peavy and Jackson and will ultimately doom this franchise. I know that Liney was signed as a free agent, but it was a terrible decision to get him and his money could have been used more constrctively in other ways.

[LittleHurt05]

2006 was when the LOOGY wildness started, they brought in a series of guys to compete for the spot in ST, most of them turned into Randy Williams and the one who pitched the best was Boone Logan. He was behind Cotts and Thornton, but Cotts started to implode that year also.

 

2007 Kenny tried a more through overhaul of the bullpen, bringing in heavy arms. He brought in MMac in mid 2006 and MacDougal had performed well, he brought in Sisco and AAardsma, to go along with Thornton, Jenks, Masset, and Logan...and that was the year that everyone except Jenks and Thornton imploded.

 

That was fun. Lets bring in as many guys as possible that throw in the high 90s, but might not know where the ball is gonna go. I doubt there has been a bullpen that can throw as hard as Sisco, MacDougal, Aardsma, & Thornton combined.

[RockRaines]

That was fun. Lets bring in as many guys as possible that throw in the high 90s, but might not know where the ball is gonna go. I doubt there has been a bullpen that can throw as hard as Sisco, MacDougal, Aardsma, & Thornton combined.

I dont know, it appears Santos, Putz, Thorton, Jenks, Threets and even Chris sale can give those guys a run for their money. The two "soft throwing" guy in our pen are Linebrink and Pena and both are mid-90's.

[MattZakrowski]

I dont know, it appears Santos, Putz, Thorton, Jenks, Threets and even Chris sale can give those guys a run for their money. The two "soft throwing" guy in our pen are Linebrink and Pena and both are mid-90's.

 

But they're all great/good/compitent pitchers, so I like it a lot more.

[Milkman delivers]

Seeing Linebrink mentioned here made me think. Is his contract one of the worst ever given to a reliever?

[witesoxfan]

Seeing Linebrink mentioned here made me think. Is his contract one of the worst ever given to a reliever?

 

BJ Ryan's was probably worse. 5 years, $47 mill before the 2006 season. He pitched fantastically in 2006, had TJ in 2007, was solid in 2008, and was garbage and out of the game in 2009. They owed him $10 mill this year (though it was undoubtedly covered by insurance).

[caulfield12]

I think the Orioles gave out a ton of money to Denys Baez, Jamie Walker and maybe Chad Bradford 3-4 years ago.

 

Those were not the best-laid plans, it's like picking mutual funds coming off their highest performances and thinking they'll repeat...very rarely does that happen with relievers, Linebrink was reliable as they come in the NL for about 8-10 years and he basically fell apart after his first four months with the White Sox.

[LittleHurt05]

For all the Chris Carter love, he sure as hell did the Sox no favors last night with his awful RISP batting. Still looking for that 1st major league hit, hope he doesn't wait til he leaves Minny to get it.

[RockRaines]

BJ Ryan's was probably worse. 5 years, $47 mill before the 2006 season. He pitched fantastically in 2006, had TJ in 2007, was solid in 2008, and was garbage and out of the game in 2009. They owed him $10 mill this year (though it was undoubtedly covered by insurance).

John Grabow is pretty bad.