Observations on the "State of the Sox"

[caulfield12]

It's too late for this season, unfortunately.

 

KW really has to take a long, hard look at himself in the mirror and see if he still has the burning fire and energy left to do his job effectively. Ozzie does, too.

 

One of the observations from this series is that "the White Sox beat themselves," or, "if you wait around long enough, they'll make a mistake." This particular comment has come from both the Minnesota t.v. and radio broadcasters (I think the direct quote was "that's a stupid play by Ramirez" to throw home) alike. How often do we say that about other teams? Not very often, right?

 

Or is it simply that we're harder on the Sox because we watch them all the time?

 

The problem and resulting question, of course, is how do you teach players not to make stupid plays? If Ozzie's going to stay around, I really wish that JR would make him bring in some new coaches (of course, I might as well believe it will rain frogs like the end of Magnolia while I'm at it). And I'm not sure any of us have seen solid reasons or tangible evidence to believe that Buddy Bell has turned around our minor league system...or, if he is, it's basically like turning the Titanic around in mid-ocean and we're missing the progress. Drafting philosophy? Perhaps that's changing a bit...but coaching/instructionally?

 

Here's the main difference between the Twins and White Sox. If you look around the diamond, all of their everyday players except for Hudson and Young spent time growing up/maturing/developing in the Twins' system. Many of them came up together, they won together, advanced level by level...grew to trust each other and believe in each other (Koskie, Mientkiewicz, AJ, Rivas, Guzman, Hunter, Jacque Jones, etc.)

 

What do we have? We have a rag-tag collection of talented players from all over the place, but they can't play with cohesion and sustain it. One simple example, there was a flyball that fell in the outfield that Rios or Pierre could have caught...but they don't trust each other, so as they were in the same line, both thought the other would get it, no communication or leadership from Rios, the ball falls in and it leads to some early damage and everyone saying "oh, no, here we go again." Of our everyday position players, none of them came up in our system. How do you instill "the White Sox way" when there's no such organizational philosophy to be translated from the minors to the majors. I guarantee there's a "Twins' way" and it started with the foundation built by Tom Kelly and continues to this day with very few fundamental changes in organizational strategies (just a much bigger budget).

 

Or look at the situation with 3B this year...you have Ramirez playing with yet another person surrounding him to his right that he didn't trust or feel comfortable playing with and it took him until Vizquel was put into the line-up to have 100% confidence he wouldn't have to worry everytime the ball was hit to that side.

 

Another obvious observation: Their pitches consistently got OUR hitters out with offspeed pitches, whereas our pitchers have thrown way too many fastballs (without much life on them in the case of Putz, Thornton and Floyd) and pitched right into the strengths of the Twins.

 

 

 

So it might take a change in managerial philosophy, new coaches all around. In all honesty, I wouldn't be uspet at all if Omar Vizquel was the manager next year (once again, something that will never happen).

 

Ozzie's done a very good job, but his act has worn thin, and you can only go the same well so many times motivationally with the same team/group of players. There's something very wrong when you're 4-21 against your main rival in the second half of the season over the last 3 seasons. I would like to keep KW, but I'm very concerned he doesn't have the patience to try to build another great team from inside the organization and be patient for 2-3 years.

 

Something else that's interesting...we have sort of evolved over time into the Twins, and they've become more and more like the mid 00's White Sox teams.

The problem is that we still have to play 81 games at USCF. The Twins have adapted and adjusted (they still have the #1 defense) and we have too, except our adjustments were made to prepare us for a National League schedule, unfortunately. We actually have more speed and athleticism, overall, than the Twins, and yet they're a much better ballclub across the board.

 

I don't know how we can expect to play smarter if we keep the same players and coaching staff in place, but that's on JR I guess. If we're really going to be stubborn and try to win with "small ball" in a small park, then we have to get a lockdown closer (like the Twins had in Nathan), and where exactly are we going to get that on the FA market? It seems it will have to come from either Santos or Sale. And the other problem is we might need Sale as a starter in 2012 or sooner.

 

So, to summarize:

 

1) Stop making so many stupid plays (see coaching staff)

2) Develop players and bring them all up to the majors together, stop trading them

3) Find a lockdown closer

4) Hope and pray that Peavy is 100% next year

5) Hope and pray that Santos, Sale, Beckham, Viciedo and Flowers are all ready to make big contributions next year

6) Hope and pray that the fanbase will be patient if you finally articulate a strategy that can produce a 3-5 year winning team and not just an occasional blip on the radar every 5 or 10 years

 

In my opinion, we're almost as good as those Twins' teams from 2002-2004. The problems are fourfold, 1) the Twins have surpassed us in terms of major league talent, minor league talent and perhaps even in payroll for next year, 2) we have no Joe Nathan, 3) as good as Danks and Floyd can be, they aren't "aces" in the category of Johan Santana that you can count on for big-game performances (one exception, Game 163) and 4) Jake Peavy, if he's not healthy, there's really no way to come up with anything resembling a solid backup or fallback plan.

 

Finally, I'm tired of these "Camp Coras" and lip service in spring training and occasionally during the season to fundamentals...if we're not going to be able to pound teams into submission, we have to do the little things right, and do them consistently and not suddenly and conveniently forget they exist once the season starts. As much as Ozzie can be a poor in-game manager, one of his biggest weaknesses is talking or stressing something, saying the right things, then one or two days later it's like we never said anything at all, whether it's about Bobby Jenks or bunting, you have to follow through with those types of organizational decisions or the players will start to tune them all out and just shrug their shoulders and say "that's Ozzie being Ozzie."

 

I've already come to terms with losing AJ and Konerko. In the next 12-18 months, we'll go through the same thing with Thornton (he's the best trading chip and Sale makes him a bit less needed if he can give you some major league ready talent back), Danks and Mark Buehrle. They'll try to extend Jackson if he pitches well, but that won't be easy with Boras.

 

Brooks Boyer might have his work cut out for him marketing the White Sox without Konerko and Buehrle. When he started, he must have thought he was in heaven with the 2005/06 seasons. Now he'll really have to earn his money!

Edited August 19, 2010 by caulfield12

[iamshack]

An ode to the Twins, by Poet Smurf...

 

[hogan873]

How long did it take you to type that post?

 

You're right on many points. The poor play of the Sox does fall in some aspects on the managerial staff, and it starts with Ozzie. I don't know what goes through his head sometimes when he makes some of his bonehead decisions. He's extremely stubborn and often "goes with his gut" instead of relying on stats. He's a good player's manager or whatever, but you hear of too many players that won't play for him. That probably kept some free agents from signing here and enacted some no trade clauses. I'm ready for a change, and I hope KW and JR are, too.

 

Next year's team should look quite a bit different, and that would be a good thing. Viciedo and Sale should be with the team from the beginning. Kotsay and Jones should not be with the team at all.If there's one thing KW learned, I hope it's that they have to go into the season with a guy who is going to be the DH. Will it be Quentin with a speedy, young guy in the outfield? Will it be Teahen, with Viciedo at third? Will it be Viciedo himself? Who knows. And as long as it's not Kotsay, I don't care.

 

I don't want to say the season is over, but it's looking grim. The Twins are a better team, being steered by a better manager. And I can swallow losses to the Twins. But what really pisses me off is that the Sox blew so many chances to put the Twins down by 5, 6, or even 7 games when the Twins were losing games. Its the losses to Cleveland, Baltimore, and KC that really grind my gears.

 

I'm not going to shake my head and shrug my shoulders with every Sox loss and pretend I don't really care. I do care. And I get angry when they lose over and over again, a lot of times due to bad baseball. There have been other discussions in other threads about who's a real fan: the fan who stays optimistic and cheers the team on no matter what or the fan who gets pissed off and rants and raves about how bad they are at times. I try to stay optimistic, but that's a very hard thing to do right now. Five games out in the middle of August when you're behind a good Twins team is not a good place to be. The Sox need to start winning right now and hope that some other teams start beating the Twins, because the Sox can't beat them.

[caulfield12]

An ode to the Twins, by Poet Smurf...

 

 

 

If we would beat the Twins more than FOUR times every 25 times they play in the second half, I wouldn't have to write about them.

 

I really would prefer to think Ozzie, KW and JR were getting together, saying this is completely unacceptable, and coming up with a better plan than the one we have now.

 

If we played the Twins over and over again (after July 15th) we'd win 26 games and lose 136. Then you would really feel like all the Twins posts were Groundhog Day-esque.

 

Supposedly we've been studying the Twins and trying to emulate their ways since 2002-2004, why are we going backwards off a cliff? Where are the results?

Edited August 19, 2010 by caulfield12

[Jordan4life_2007]

It's too late for this season, unfortunately.

 

KW really has to take a long, hard look at himself in the mirror and see if he still has the burning fire and energy left to do his job effectively. Ozzie does, too.

 

One of the observations from this series is that "the White Sox beat themselves," or, "if you wait around long enough, they'll make a mistake." This particular comment has come from both the Minnesota t.v. and radio broadcasters (I think the direct quote was "that's a stupid play by Ramirez" to throw home) alike. How often do we say that about other teams? Not very often, right?

 

Or is it simply that we're harder on the Sox because we watch them all the time?

 

The problem and resulting question, of course, is how do you teach players not to make stupid plays? If Ozzie's going to stay around, I really wish that JR would make him bring in some new coaches (of course, I might as well believe it will rain frogs like the end of Magnolia while I'm at it). And I'm not sure any of us have seen solid reasons or evidence to believe that Buddy Bell has turned around our minor league system...or, if he is, it's basically like turning the Titanic around in mid-ocean and we're missing the progress. Drafting philosophy? Perhaps that's changing a bit...but coaching/instructionally?

 

Here's the main difference between the Twins and White Sox. If you look around the diamond, all of their everyday players except for Hudson and Young spent time growing up/maturing/developing in the Twins' system. Many of them came up together, they won together, advanced level by level...grew to trust each other and believe in each other (Koskie, Mientkiewiz, AJ, Rivas, Guzman, Hunter, Jacque Jones, etc.)

 

What do we have? We have a rag-tag collection of talented players from all over the place, but they can't play with cohesion and sustain it. One simple example, there was a flyball that fell in the outfield that Rios or Pierre could have caught...but they don't trust each other, so as they were in the same line, both thought the other would get it, no communication or leadership from Rios, the ball falls in and it leads to some early damage and everyone saying "oh, no, here we go again." Of our everyday position players, none of them came up in our system. How do you instill "the White Sox way" when there's no such organizational philosophy to be translated from the minors to the majors. I guarantee there's a "Twins' way" and it started with the foundation built by Tom Kelly and continues to this day with very few fundamental changes in organizational strategies (just a much bigger budget).

 

Or look at the situation with 3B this year...you have Ramirez playing with yet another person surrounding him to his right that he didn't trust or feel comfortable playing with and it took him until Vizquel was put into the line-up to have 100% confidence he wouldn't have to worry everytime the ball was hit to that side.

 

Another obvious observation: Their pitches consistently got OUR hitters out with offspeed pitches, whereas our pitchers have thrown way too many fastballs (without much life on them in the case of Putz, Thornton and Floyd) and pitched right into the strengths of the Twins.

 

 

 

So it might take a change in managerial philosophy, new coaches all around. In all honesty, I wouldn't be uspet at all if Omar Vizquel was the manager next year (once again, something that will never happen).

 

Ozzie's done a very good job, but his act has worn thin, and you can only go the same well so many times motivationally with the same team/group of players. There's something very wrong when you're 4-21 against your main rival in the second half of the season over the last 3 seasons. I would like to keep KW, but I'm very concerned he doesn't have the patience to try to build another great team from inside the organization and be patient for 2-3 years.

 

Something else that's interesting...we have sort of evolved over time into the Twins, and they've become more and more like the mid 00's White Sox teams.

The problem is that we still have to play 81 games at USCF. The Twins have adapted and adjusted (they still have the #1 defense) and we have too, except our adjustments were made to prepare us for a National League schedule, unfortunately. We actually have more speed and athleticism, overall, than the Twins, and yet they're a much better ballclub across the board.

 

I don't know how we can expect to play smarter if we keep the same players and coaching staff in place, but that's on JR I guess. If we're really going to be stubborn and try to win with "small ball" in a small park, then we have to get a lockdown closer (like the Twins had in Nathan), and where exactly are we going to get that on the FA market? It seems it will have to come from either Santos or Sale. And the other problem is we might need Sale as a starter in 2012 or sooner.

 

So, to summarize:

 

1) Stop making so many stupid plays (see coaching staff)

2) Develop players and bring them all up to the majors together, stop trading them

3) Find a lockdown closer

4) Hope and pray that Peavy is 100% next year

5) Hope and pray that Santos, Sale, Beckham, Viciedo and Flowers are all ready to make big contributions next year

6) Hope and pray that the fanbase will be patient if you finally articulate a strategy that can produce a 3-5 year winning team and not just an occasional blip on the radar every 5 or 10 years

 

In my opinion, we're almost as good as those Twins' teams from 2002-2004. The problems are fourfold, 1) the Twins have surpassed us in terms of major league talent, minor league talent and perhaps even in payroll for next year, 2) we have no Joe Nathan, 3) as good as Danks and Floyd can be, they aren't "aces" in the category of Johan Santana that you can count on for big-game performances (one exception, Game 163) and 4) Jake Peavy, if he's not healthy, there's really no way to come up with anything resembling a solid backup or fallback plan

 

Finally, I'm tired of these "Camp Coras" and lip service in spring training and occasionally during the season to fundamentals...if we're not going to be able to pound teams into submission, we have to do the little things right, and do them consistently and not suddenly and conveniently forget they exist once the season starts. As much as Ozzie can be a poor in-game manager, one of his biggest weaknesses is talking or stressing something, saying the right things, then one or two days later it's like we never said anything at all, whether it's about Bobby Jenks or bunting, you have to follow through with those types of organizational decisions or the players will start to tune them all out and just shrug their shoulders and say "that's Ozzie being Ozzie."

 

I've already come to terms with losing AJ and Konerko. In the next 12-18 months, we'll go through the same thing with Thornton (he's the best trading chip and Sale makes him a bit less needed if he can give you some major league ready talent back), Danks and Mark Buehrle. They'll try to extend Jackson if he pitches well, but that won't be easy with Boras.

 

Brooks Boyer might have his work cut out for him marketing the White Sox without Konerko and Buehrle. When he started, he must have thought he was in heaven with the 2005/06 seasons. Now he'll really have to earn his money!

 

I fell asleep halfway through this post. But I will say that of what I did read you made some legitimate points.

[caulfield12]

I'll try to take that as a compliment.

 

Actually, since I'm in Thailand, when the White Sox have been losing all these games, I have nothing to do at 10 or 11 am but think about them...because I can't watch tv or read a book, it's either watch BBC (one of the few channels in English where I'm staying) replay the same headline stories every 10 minutes or go crazy thinking about the White Sox. Of course, the other English channel (ESPN Asia) plays every single New York Yankees game and nothing else, so I have to watch that jack--- Nick Swisher every day and be reminded of one of the major reasons we're going to be missing the playoffs again.

 

I hope I never retire or have another two month vacation again with nothing very much to do...it sucks. Especially after I just had two jobs in China, and I will thankfully going back to them in 2 weeks.

 

The one thing I do look forward to is going to see Tibet and Mount Everest in October, there's that at least.

 

And I do know I'm fortunate to have a job, more than a few posters here seem like they're going through difficult times, and the baseball season gives us all a chance to follow and share something we feel passionately about.

 

I still can't believe Minnesota has the biggest lead they've had all season in the division after we were tied with them one week ago.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2010 by caulfield12

[LittleHurt05]

In my opinion, we're almost as good as those Twins' teams from 2002-2004. The problems are fourfold, 1) the Twins have surpassed us in terms of major league talent, minor league talent and perhaps even in payroll for next year, 2) we have no Joe Nathan, 3) as good as Danks and Floyd can be, they aren't "aces" in the category of Johan Santana that you can count on for big-game performances (one exception, Game 163) and 4) Jake Peavy, if he's not healthy, there's really no way to come up with anything resembling a solid backup or fallback plan.

 

There's a lot in your post, but thought I could comment on these 4 problems.

 

1) the Twins have surpassed us in terms of major league talent, minor league talent and perhaps even in payroll for next year,

I agree 100%. Everyone acts like the Sox just don't think they can beat the Twins, and this mental block makes them lose all the time. I don't think its that. How about the fact that the Twins are just a better team/organization and are more talented? The same reason the Twins can't beat the Yankees, they are just a better team.

 

2) we have no Joe Nathan

That hasn't stopped them this year. Matt Capps has looked pretty awful, and Jon Rauch is just another bullpen guy. Look at how good the lockdown closers not named Rivera were in last years playoffs. Jenks has struggled, but the rest of our top relievers have been solid, although they chose to have a bad week at the worst possible time.

 

3) as good as Danks and Floyd can be, they aren't "aces" in the category of Johan Santana that you can count on for big-game performances (one exception, Game 163)

Our team is based on pitching, and the fact is our starting pitching has been awful vs. the Twins. Gavin has s*** the bed twice. Danks has one shutdown game, but gave up a 4-run & a 6-run inning in the last two starts @ MIN (granted, Sox won one of those games, but thats not the point). If you can't depend on those two to pitch well, then the Sox are going nowhere. In 3 of these past 4 losses to MIN, the Sox have scored 6 runs. You have to win those games.

 

4) Jake Peavy, if he's not healthy, there's really no way to come up with anything resembling a solid backup or fallback plan.

When you take a chance on a pitcher who makes $17-18 million and you aren't the Yankees, you really need him to perform/stay healthy or he will put you in a big hole. I still like the move, Peavy's previous injury was a baserunning fluke, but not having that ace every 5 days is hurting them, and if he isn't 100% next year, he will burn a huge hole in that payroll.

Edited August 19, 2010 by LittleHurt05

[caulfield12]

There's a lot in your post, but thought I could comment on these 4 problems.

 

1) the Twins have surpassed us in terms of major league talent, minor league talent and perhaps even in payroll for next year,

I agree 100%. Everyone acts like the Sox just don't think they can beat the Twins, and this mental block makes them lose all the time. I don't think its that. How about the fact that the Twins are just a better team/organization and are more talented? The same reason the Twins can't beat the Yankees, they are just a better team.

 

2) we have no Joe Nathan

That hasn't stopped them this year. Matt Capps has looked pretty awful, and Jon Rauch is just another bullpen guy. Look at how good the lockdown closers not named Rivera were in last years playoffs. Jenks has struggled, but the rest of our top relievers have been solid, although they chose to have a bad week at the worst possible time.

 

3) as good as Danks and Floyd can be, they aren't "aces" in the category of Johan Santana that you can count on for big-game performances (one exception, Game 163)

Our team is based on pitching, and the fact is our starting pitching has been awful vs. the Twins. Gavin has s*** the bed twice. Danks has one shutdown game, but gave up a 4-run & a 6-run inning in the last two starts @ MIN (granted, Sox won one of those games, but thats not the point). If you can't depend on those two to pitch well, then the Sox are going nowhere. In 3 of these past 4 losses to MIN, the Sox have scored 6 runs. You have to win those games.

 

4) Jake Peavy, if he's not healthy, there's really no way to come up with anything resembling a solid backup or fallback plan.

When you take a chance on a pitcher who makes $17-18 million and you aren't the Yankees, you really need him to perform/stay healthy or he will put you in a big hole. I still like the move, Peavy's previous injury was a baserunning fluke, but not having that ace every 5 days is hurting them, and if he isn't 100% next year, he will burn a huge hole in that payroll.

 

 

When I was referring to Joe Nathan, it was more the idea of the Twins having a bullpen that just wouldn't let you beat them from the 7th inning on.

 

If you went back and looked at 2002-2004, 2006, 2009, I wouldn't be surprised to see quite a few seasons in there where the Twins didn't lose 5-6 games that they were leading going into the 7th.

 

When they had Hawkins, JC Romero, Rincon (later) and Guardado...then replaced by Joe Nathan, very very few teams ever touched those guys, you knew you had to win the game before the last one-third of it began or you were basically doomed.

 

What Jenks did after the ASB was puncture that idea that our bullpen was unbeatable and arguably the best in the AL...to the point where it's so unsettled now that two VERY inexperienced rookies in Sale and Santos might be the two best options, along with Thornton (when he's not overused).

Edited August 19, 2010 by caulfield12

[LittleHurt05]

What Jenks did after the ASB was puncture that idea that our bullpen was unbeatable and arguably the best in the AL...to the point where it's so unsettled now that two VERY inexperienced rookies in Sale and Santos might be the two best options, along with Thornton (when he's not overused).

 

First off, I think you are discounting Putz way too quickly. He had one bad week after being one of the best relievers in baseball, got a few days off and he can still be very effective. VERY inexperienced isn't always a bad thing in the bullpen either. Santos has been in some clutch situations already and Sale obviously has the talent to get hitters out, why else do you draft him in the first round straight out of college? Francisco Rodriguez was VERY inexperienced in 2002. As was Bobby Jenks in 2005, as was Adam Wainwright in 2006.

[Greg Hibbard]

The Twins have made a couple of stupid plays this series - one of them was Kubel inexplicably trying to stretch a single into a double last night and running into the second out with a man on third.

 

Liriano also tried to start an impossible double play with a clear out at home.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Greg Hibbard

[soxrwhite]

It's too late for this season, unfortunately.

 

KW really has to take a long, hard look at himself in the mirror and see if he still has the burning fire and energy left to do his job effectively. Ozzie does, too.

 

One of the observations from this series is that "the White Sox beat themselves," or, "if you wait around long enough, they'll make a mistake." This particular comment has come from both the Minnesota t.v. and radio broadcasters (I think the direct quote was "that's a stupid play by Ramirez" to throw home) alike. How often do we say that about other teams? Not very often, right?

 

Or is it simply that we're harder on the Sox because we watch them all the time?

 

The problem and resulting question, of course, is how do you teach players not to make stupid plays? If Ozzie's going to stay around, I really wish that JR would make him bring in some new coaches (of course, I might as well believe it will rain frogs like the end of Magnolia while I'm at it). And I'm not sure any of us have seen solid reasons or tangible evidence to believe that Buddy Bell has turned around our minor league system...or, if he is, it's basically like turning the Titanic around in mid-ocean and we're missing the progress. Drafting philosophy? Perhaps that's changing a bit...but coaching/instructionally?

 

Here's the main difference between the Twins and White Sox. If you look around the diamond, all of their everyday players except for Hudson and Young spent time growing up/maturing/developing in the Twins' system. Many of them came up together, they won together, advanced level by level...grew to trust each other and believe in each other (Koskie, Mientkiewicz, AJ, Rivas, Guzman, Hunter, Jacque Jones, etc.)

 

What do we have? We have a rag-tag collection of talented players from all over the place, but they can't play with cohesion and sustain it. One simple example, there was a flyball that fell in the outfield that Rios or Pierre could have caught...but they don't trust each other, so as they were in the same line, both thought the other would get it, no communication or leadership from Rios, the ball falls in and it leads to some early damage and everyone saying "oh, no, here we go again." Of our everyday position players, none of them came up in our system. How do you instill "the White Sox way" when there's no such organizational philosophy to be translated from the minors to the majors. I guarantee there's a "Twins' way" and it started with the foundation built by Tom Kelly and continues to this day with very few fundamental changes in organizational strategies (just a much bigger budget).

 

Or look at the situation with 3B this year...you have Ramirez playing with yet another person surrounding him to his right that he didn't trust or feel comfortable playing with and it took him until Vizquel was put into the line-up to have 100% confidence he wouldn't have to worry everytime the ball was hit to that side.

 

Another obvious observation: Their pitches consistently got OUR hitters out with offspeed pitches, whereas our pitchers have thrown way too many fastballs (without much life on them in the case of Putz, Thornton and Floyd) and pitched right into the strengths of the Twins.

 

 

 

So it might take a change in managerial philosophy, new coaches all around. In all honesty, I wouldn't be uspet at all if Omar Vizquel was the manager next year (once again, something that will never happen).

 

Ozzie's done a very good job, but his act has worn thin, and you can only go the same well so many times motivationally with the same team/group of players. There's something very wrong when you're 4-21 against your main rival in the second half of the season over the last 3 seasons. I would like to keep KW, but I'm very concerned he doesn't have the patience to try to build another great team from inside the organization and be patient for 2-3 years.

 

Something else that's interesting...we have sort of evolved over time into the Twins, and they've become more and more like the mid 00's White Sox teams.

The problem is that we still have to play 81 games at USCF. The Twins have adapted and adjusted (they still have the #1 defense) and we have too, except our adjustments were made to prepare us for a National League schedule, unfortunately. We actually have more speed and athleticism, overall, than the Twins, and yet they're a much better ballclub across the board.

 

I don't know how we can expect to play smarter if we keep the same players and coaching staff in place, but that's on JR I guess. If we're really going to be stubborn and try to win with "small ball" in a small park, then we have to get a lockdown closer (like the Twins had in Nathan), and where exactly are we going to get that on the FA market? It seems it will have to come from either Santos or Sale. And the other problem is we might need Sale as a starter in 2012 or sooner.

 

So, to summarize:

 

1) Stop making so many stupid plays (see coaching staff)

2) Develop players and bring them all up to the majors together, stop trading them

3) Find a lockdown closer

4) Hope and pray that Peavy is 100% next year

5) Hope and pray that Santos, Sale, Beckham, Viciedo and Flowers are all ready to make big contributions next year

6) Hope and pray that the fanbase will be patient if you finally articulate a strategy that can produce a 3-5 year winning team and not just an occasional blip on the radar every 5 or 10 years

 

In my opinion, we're almost as good as those Twins' teams from 2002-2004. The problems are fourfold, 1) the Twins have surpassed us in terms of major league talent, minor league talent and perhaps even in payroll for next year, 2) we have no Joe Nathan, 3) as good as Danks and Floyd can be, they aren't "aces" in the category of Johan Santana that you can count on for big-game performances (one exception, Game 163) and 4) Jake Peavy, if he's not healthy, there's really no way to come up with anything resembling a solid backup or fallback plan.

 

Finally, I'm tired of these "Camp Coras" and lip service in spring training and occasionally during the season to fundamentals...if we're not going to be able to pound teams into submission, we have to do the little things right, and do them consistently and not suddenly and conveniently forget they exist once the season starts. As much as Ozzie can be a poor in-game manager, one of his biggest weaknesses is talking or stressing something, saying the right things, then one or two days later it's like we never said anything at all, whether it's about Bobby Jenks or bunting, you have to follow through with those types of organizational decisions or the players will start to tune them all out and just shrug their shoulders and say "that's Ozzie being Ozzie."

 

I've already come to terms with losing AJ and Konerko. In the next 12-18 months, we'll go through the same thing with Thornton (he's the best trading chip and Sale makes him a bit less needed if he can give you some major league ready talent back), Danks and Mark Buehrle. They'll try to extend Jackson if he pitches well, but that won't be easy with Boras.

 

Brooks Boyer might have his work cut out for him marketing the White Sox without Konerko and Buehrle. When he started, he must have thought he was in heaven with the 2005/06 seasons. Now he'll really have to earn his money!

 

Quitter.

 

[caulfield12]

Let me ask you this, since56:

 

I challenge you to watch and listen to every game for the rest of the season, because I will be doing that.

 

Will you? Or will you just quietly disappear into the woodwork and come back at a more convenient time?

 

Let's all fight with each other about who is a better fan, okay? Have you ever come up with any answers?

 

 

Kenny Williams quit on the fans when he didn't make any moves before this season started...when he agreed with Ozzie to go with Kotsay/Jones over Thome/Jones as the DH and didn't shore up the offense at the trade deadline.

 

He obviously felt this team wasn't properly positioned or he would have done a lot more than adding Edwin Jackson...who you can argue was just as much about solidifying the 2011 starting rotation as us making the playoffs this year.

 

 

But I'll make a bet with you (you can name the price) that the White Sox make the playoffs over the Twins. I'll even let you assign the odds. So, how about it?

Edited August 19, 2010 by caulfield12

[elrockinMT]

The comment was made that we need to beat the Twins more than 4 times in 25 games and I agree. But maybe the next four games will be the Sox turn to win? I ain't givin in to no stinkin Twins and neither should you. It ain't ovah till it's ovan someone once said and that's not till the end of the season or the math just don't add up anymore

[caulfield12]

The comment was made that we need to beat the Twins more than 4 times in 25 games and I agree. But maybe the next four games will be the Sox turn to win? I ain't givin in to no stinkin Twins and neither should you. It ain't ovah till it's ovan someone once said and that's not till the end of the season or the math just don't add up anymore

 

 

I'm not asking for them to trade Konerko and Buehrle.

 

Maybe I should have said I have prepared myself psychologically and emotionally the last 10 days for not going to the playoffs.

 

As Fathom said, my anger at the White Sox this week is at a 4-5-6 level compared to the 8-9-10 it was in 2005 and 2008 at the end of those seasons.

 

I'm HOPING we can win, but certainly not expecting it. I'll still listen to the games and be more excited about 2011 (even though we probably won't make any major moves this offseason) than I was about the 2008 season, and that turned out to be a very pleasant surprise.

 

 

[dmbjeff]

Today is about as big as it comes in terms of games with meaning. 6 back with 6 weeks to go vs. 4 back with 6 weeks to go is a huge difference. I am hoping we can pull this one out and can regroup for the final stretch. This season has been quite the rollercoaster thus far. By June 1, I figured 25% of the team would be traded but then they went on a 2 month tear. All led by insane pitching which outpitched all of Ozzie's dumb moves, nothing made me as angry as that Nationals game where he sat his 2 best players and Peavy pitched the CG shutout. We got lucky as hell that day. It seems the past 2 weeks our pitching has gone cold, both in the rotation but even moreso in the pen. If the pitching can regroup I think we have a shot but if Gavin pitches like he did last night and walks off the mound after throwing horrible balls as if he is wanting to leave the game midcount, we are not going to make it.

[Greg Hibbard]

As noted, I do not think we make any more stupid plays than any other team. I thought last night the Twins did as many stupid things as the Sox.

 

The #1a issue for me is the lineups. Ozzie Guillen consistently fields a lineup that gives him a lesser chance to win than he should. Putting AJ in that lineup last night was inexcusable. Do you realize he has 27 TOTAL home runs in his career vs. Left handed pitching? This year he's hitting .211 vs. left. And you put him up against one of the best left handers in the league? He has a .654 career OPS vs. left. Where is the logic? He cannot help you.

 

Obviously we all know about Ozzie's undying love for Kotsay, which has been constantly predicated on him being left-handed and breaking up a series of rightys. If the right/left matchups are so f***ing important, Ozzie, why do you choose to ignore things like batting splits when filling out the lineup card? This has been something that has just killed us all year.

 

The #1b issue for me is that we are almost exclusively a fastball-hitting club. Almost no one on our club hits offspeed pitches well, particularly Ramirez and Konerko. Every key out pitch recently seems like a change or slider out of the zone that badly fools one of our hitters.

[caulfield12]

Well, if there's anyone who can do it, it's Buehrle.

 

Yes, he's had some absolute horrible outings in the past in the Metrodome, but everyone in that clubhouse understands the importance of this game in the bigger picture. A win means we're definitely part of the race, a loss is like a knockout blow...part of me wishes the game would just get rained out, but it would put off the inevitable, we HAVE TO go in there and take a game, maybe that will be enough to get the club to relax again after all the bullpen collapses.

 

I really thought that Danks and Floyd were going to come through when we needed them, and their performances the last couple of times out have been one of the biggest disappointments to me this season.

 

Putz and Thornton are tired, Gavin and Danks have less of an "out" in my opinion for their failures to man up and put the collective team on their back.

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

As noted, I do not think we make any more stupid plays than any other team. I thought last night the Twins did as many stupid things as the Sox.

 

The #1a issue for me is the lineups. Ozzie Guillen consistently fields a lineup that gives him a lesser chance to win than he should. Putting AJ in that lineup last night was inexcusable. Do you realize he has 27 TOTAL home runs in his career vs. Left handed pitching? This year he's hitting .211 vs. left. And you put him up against one of the best left handers in the league? He has a .654 career OPS vs. left. Where is the logic? He cannot help you.

 

Obviously we all know about Ozzie's undying love for Kotsay, which has been constantly predicated on him being left-handed and breaking up a series of rightys. If the right/left matchups are so f***ing important, Ozzie, why do you choose to ignore things like batting splits when filling out the lineup card? This has been something that has just killed us all year.

 

The #1b issue for me is that we are almost exclusively a fastball-hitting club. Almost no one on our club hits offspeed pitches well, particularly Ramirez and Konerko. Every key out pitch recently seems like a change or slider out of the zone that badly fools one of our hitters.

 

 

Ozzie doesn't know how to sit players like Kotsay and AJ, yet, remarkably...he knew how to show Dye and Thome the door.

 

What's the main argument for not playing Castro, who obviously hits better against lefties? That AJ DESERVES a chance to play against his former team, and that you should never "bench" starters in key games? That AJ's motivation against the Twins will offset his year-long struggles with lefties?

 

Same thing with Kotsay, how can you NOT PH Andruw Jones at that point in the game when there's the greatest chance to strike a huge, early blow against the Twins? Sure, Jones might also strike out, but the odds have to be exponentially higher of Jones hitting the ball hard and into play for at least a double than Kotsay driving the ball against a lefty.

 

 

 

 

[CanOfCorn]

Ozzie doesn't know how to sit players like Kotsay and AJ, yet, remarkably...he knew how to show Dye and Thome the door.

 

What's the main argument for not playing Castro, who obviously hits better against lefties? That AJ DESERVES a chance to play against his former team, and that you should never "bench" starters in key games? That AJ's motivation against the Twins will offset his year-long struggles with lefties?

 

Same thing with Kotsay, how can you NOT PH Andruw Jones at that point in the game when there's the greatest chance to strike a huge, early blow against the Twins? Sure, Jones might also strike out, but the odds have to be exponentially higher of Jones hitting the ball hard and into play for at least a double than Kotsay driving the ball against a lefty.

 

If Thome was here...do you think he would be our everyday DH? If so, do you think he would have the same type of season without the rest he's getting in Minny?

 

I'd like to know your answer. I don't think he would have the same type of season. And I also think we all would be complaining again on how it takes 4 singles to score 1 run. But that's just me.

 

Just saw this from Buster Olney:

 

"The bottom line: The White Sox made a decision last winter based on logic, based on numbers, based on the recent injury history for Carlos Quentin. And it just hasn't worked out, just as every team makes decisions that don't work out."

Edited August 19, 2010 by CanOfCorn

[BigSqwert]

If Thome was here...do you think he would be our everyday DH?

 

Yes

 

If so, do you think he would have the same type of season without the rest he's getting in Minny?

 

No. They are using him the right way. He would be our everyday DH batting 4th or 5th and be worn down by August like he has been for the past few seasons with us. If Ozzie was smart he could have used him against righties and someone like Jones for lefties.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

As long as he was limited to the neighborhood of 325-375 at-bats, I think he would have been fine.

 

The rest of them would have gone to Jones, Quentin and resting some of the everyday players.

 

It doesn't matter, we'll never know, will we. It will be argued over and over again this offseason...and you're right, Ozzie being Ozzie, he probably would have felt obligated to play Thome almost every day and would have worn him down eventually.

 

Just saw this from Buster Olney:

 

QUOTE

"The bottom line: The White Sox made a decision last winter based on logic, based on numbers, based on the recent injury history for Carlos Quentin. And it just hasn't worked out, just as every team makes decisions that don't work out."

 

LOL. My mouth would drop if I heard Ozzie articulate that argument instead of "Fuc- You" Sox fans!

 

Actually, after the 2005 season, if you think of everything that had to go right...well, the White Sox took a chance with ... Dustin Hermanson, Cliff Politte, Bobby Jenks, Jermaine Dye, Tadahito Iguchi, Carl Everett, Scott Podsednik, El Duque and AJ Pierzynski ... and every move ended up working out perfectly, almost.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2010 by caulfield12

[BigSqwert]

As long as he was limited to the neighborhood of 325-375 at-bats, I think he would have been fine.

 

The rest of them would have gone to Jones, Quentin and resting some of the everyday players.

 

It doesn't matter, we'll never know, will we. It will be argued over and over again this offseason...and you're right, Ozzie being Ozzie, he probably would have felt obligated to play Thome almost every day and would have worn him down eventually.

 

Reason #255 why he is not a good baseball manager.

[LittleHurt05]

The #1a issue for me is the lineups. Ozzie Guillen consistently fields a lineup that gives him a lesser chance to win than he should. Putting AJ in that lineup last night was inexcusable. Do you realize he has 27 TOTAL home runs in his career vs. Left handed pitching? This year he's hitting .211 vs. left. And you put him up against one of the best left handers in the league? He has a .654 career OPS vs. left. Where is the logic? He cannot help you.

 

AJP was 3 for 6 so far this season vs. Liriano

 

Ozzie doesn't know how to sit players like Kotsay and AJ, yet, remarkably...he knew how to show Dye and Thome the door.

 

You do realize that Jermaine Dye might have been the worst player in the majors last August/Sept. and yet Ozzie started him 45 games the last two months of the year?

[caulfield12]

AJP was 3 for 6 so far this season vs. Liriano

 

 

 

You do realize that Jermaine Dye might have been the worst player in the majors last August/Sept. and yet Ozzie started him 45 games the last two months of the year?

 

 

Ozzie will do whatever he wants to do. I think against Baker, maybe Teahen had really really good stats (could be wrong) and Kotsay was in the starting line-up despite rather pedestrian ones.

 

Ozzie's greatest strength is also his weakness. He was loyal to JD, even after the trade for Rios, and that's one of the reasons they let him go...JD is either not playing or an everyday player, simple. Basically the same as Thome in Ozzie's mind.

[LVSoxFan]

a) I am SO tired of hearing that all our problems basically come down to: we didn't bring back Thome. Geesh. That's it, huh? The key between good season/lost season? Was our DH? Thome?

<_>

 

B) It's probably too late, but I think it's time Ozzie--or Kenny--gave a "Herb Brooks" speech to the team, like the one he gave them before 1980 game against the Russians. Everybody has this insanely overrated idea of the Twins, just as everyone feared the Soviets back then. He mocked them in front of his team, relentlessly. He said they could be beat, and they could do it.

 

I am done with, as somebody else here so perfectly put it, the games following a "script" when it comes to the Twins. I thought it was allegedly the Metrodome that was supposed to be the culprit! Apparently not. I think it's mental, just like it used to be with Oakland.

 

On the other hand, we haven't been winning when we should have all season (against division rivals, against sh*t teams like Baltimore), so maybe we just aren't that good.