Roger Clemens indicted for perjury, obstruction

[flavum]

It certainly stains his reputation, but I think he will get in. Maybe not first ballot, but he will get in

 

It's going to take a long time, but I think they'll eventually have to radically change the voting process for the Hall.

 

I think rational people know that players like Clemens and Bonds were greats of their era with or without steroids. While McGwire and Sosa accumulated their numbers mostly because of steroids.

 

The question is, do players like Bonds and Clemens deserve to be given the highest honor even though MLB pretty much endorsed steroid use for more than a decade?

Edited June 19, 2012 by flavum

[Kyyle23]

It's going to take a long time, but I think they'll eventually have to radically change the voting process for the Hall.

I think rational people know that players like Clemens and Bonds were greats of their era with or without steroids. While McGwire and Sosa accumulated their numbers mostly because of steroids.

 

The question is, do players like Bonds and Clemens deserve to be given the highest honor even though MLB pretty much endorsed steroid use for more than a decade?

 

I dont agree with this. There have been stories of players in the 60s-70s-80s using greenies and amphetimines and all kinds of crap to get an edge. Hell, the Doc Gooden mets was one big 8 ball.

 

Clemens and Bonds probably both will get in, I dont like it, but they will

[southsider2k5]

I dont agree with this. There have been stories of players in the 60s-70s-80s using greenies and amphetimines and all kinds of crap to get an edge. Hell, the Doc Gooden mets was one big 8 ball.

 

Clemens and Bonds probably both will get in, I dont like it, but they will

 

Steroids is a whole different ballgame than uppers. They are being treated totally differently.

[Kyyle23]

Steroids is a whole different ballgame than uppers. They are being treated totally differently.

 

My issue is this, who is to say there werent steroids? Hell, we know Jose Canseco was all into them in the 80s, so how many players in the 80s were messing with them?

 

We dont know, thats my problem with all of this.

[flavum]

My issue is this, who is to say there werent steroids? Hell, we know Jose Canseco was all into them in the 80s, so how many players in the 80s were messing with them?

 

We dont know, thats my problem with all of this.

 

The short answer is nobody was hitting 50, 60, 73 homers a year in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's. Ok--George Foster and Cecil Fielder, but you know what I mean.

 

But yeah, we don't know if Rickey Henderson or Paul Molitor juiced at the end of their careers. It's certainly possible.

 

It was institutional cheating. If Mantle and Mays played in the late 90's, they probably would have done it too.

[Steve9347]

The short answer is nobody was hitting 50, 60, 73 homers a year in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's. Ok--George Foster and Cecil Fielder, but you know what I mean.

 

But yeah, we don't know if Rickey Henderson or Paul Molitor juiced at the end of their careers. It's certainly possible.

 

It was institutional cheating. If Mantle and Mays played in the late 90's, they probably would have done it too.

I think it's insane to punish players for roiding, when roids saved the game. MLB had to know pipsqueak Sosa turning into a monster and hitting 66 bombs while Big Mac was jacking 70 was due to steroids. They f***ing loved it and the attention it brought the game.

[Soxbadger]

Baseball HOF is full of players who cheated to win, its completely hypocritical that they now care about steroids.

 

But I guess doctored baseballs (Gaylord Perry) is less cheating than taking steroids which dont conclusively make you better.

[LittleHurt05]

I think it's insane to punish players for roiding, when roids saved the game. MLB had to know pipsqueak Sosa turning into a monster and hitting 66 bombs while Big Mac was jacking 70 was due to steroids. They f***ing loved it and the attention it brought the game.

 

Exactly. They embraced it and did nothing to stop it, and now they wanna punish all those players? Plenty of the pitchers who they were facing were on the juice too. That's how some of them were able to make the jump from AAA to the majors.

[Leonard Zelig]

Nobody knows when any of these guys started using.

[ptatc]

The short answer is nobody was hitting 50, 60, 73 homers a year in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's. Ok--George Foster and Cecil Fielder, but you know what I mean.

 

But yeah, we don't know if Rickey Henderson or Paul Molitor juiced at the end of their careers. It's certainly possible.

 

It was institutional cheating. If Mantle and Mays played in the late 90's, they probably would have done it too.

He didn't with the Brewers. I was in that clubhouse and would have seen it.

[ptatc]

Baseball HOF is full of players who cheated to win, its completely hypocritical that they now care about steroids.

 

But I guess doctored baseballs (Gaylord Perry) is less cheating than taking steroids which dont conclusively make you better.

It is less cheating than doctoring a baseball, the same as a speeding ticket is less of a crime than murder.

 

Steriods do conclusively make you better. 70 homeruns in baseball proves that as well as performance in most other sports ala Floyd Landis and Ben Johnson.

[ptatc]

Nobody knows when any of these guys started using.

Pretty much in the mid-80's with Canseco and McGwire.

[southsider2k5]

Nobody knows when any of these guys started using.

 

I remember reading a story about Nolan Ryan years ago being one of the very first guys out there to lift weights. IIRC the Angels didn't even have a weight room, and in the mid 70's he turned an abandoned room into a weight room which he used alone. There was a big school of thought that too much muscle was bad for baseball related activities.

[ptatc]

I remember reading a story about Nolan Ryan years ago being one of the very first guys out there to lift weights. IIRC the Angels didn't even have a weight room, and in the mid 70's he turned an abandoned room into a weight room which he used alone. There was a big school of thought that too much muscle was bad for baseball related activities.

Yes. The theory was it made you too "tight" and you couldn't get the full motion you need to throw.

[sunofgold]

I think Clemens has some good defense behind him. Just throw some doubt in there. Pettite might have misunderstood/misremember/etc. Pettite went along with it. Basically saying that you aren't 100 percent sure.

 

I think Clemens will not be indicted. and you cannot say that Pettite committed perjury under oath. Great plan. I foresee both of them pitching for the yanks this year.

Okay I was partially wrong. I meant to say that Clemens will pitch for the Astros this season. He is probably better than any other pitcher they have right now. Lol. Yanks might want him though. Hopefully Andy and Roger can put this behind (pun intended) them and work together on pitching stuff (pun intended)

[southsider2k5]

Stopping and thinking about this for a while, this is a pretty smart move by Clemens. By pitching this year in the majors, he pushes back his Hall of Fame vote for five years. He gives people a chance to either start to forget what happened, or for the position on the juicing athletes to start to soften up.

[balfanman]

Stopping and thinking about this for a while, this is a pretty smart move by Clemens. By pitching this year in the majors, he pushes back his Hall of Fame vote for five years. He gives people a chance to either start to forget what happened, or for the position on the juicing athletes to start to soften up.

 

Good point. The other theory that I would throw out their is that with his enormous ego, he thinks that he has been exonerated of all suspicion now. He could be juicing up more than ever because he has been given new life and thinks that he is above all of that and no one would dare accuse him ever again.

[Balta1701]

Few things would give me a bigger smile than having him attempt a comeback and then finding out his testosterone/epitestosterone ratios were screwed up.

[sunofgold]

He knows how to pitch. Nolan Ryan pitched for a long time. If Clemens can

come up with a knuckleball he could pitch for a while. clemency for clemens.

Ask Clemente.

[Kyyle23]

He knows how to pitch. Nolan Ryan pitched for a long time. If Clemens can

come up with a knuckleball he could pitch for a while. clemency for clemens.

Ask Clemente.

 

Aside from your bad puns, learn a knuckleball? You act as if it is just an easy thing for someone to do. There is a reason that there are so few knuckleballers in the majors anymore, it is a difficult pitch to A: throw and B: control

 

Why didn't Nolan Ryan learn a knuckler and throw until he turned 70?

[kitekrazy]

Good point. The other theory that I would throw out their is that with his enormous ego, he thinks that he has been exonerated of all suspicion now. He could be juicing up more than ever because he has been given new life and thinks that he is above all of that and no one would dare accuse him ever again.

 

Just like Brett Favre. There's a point you need to go away. I hope he never makes it into the HOF.

 

[Dick Allen]

Aside from your bad puns, learn a knuckleball? You act as if it is just an easy thing for someone to do. There is a reason that there are so few knuckleballers in the majors anymore, it is a difficult pitch to A: throw and B: control

 

Why didn't Nolan Ryan learn a knuckler and throw until he turned 70?

While obviously you are correct that it is a difficult pitch to master, the question is why don't more guys that are basically at the end of the line at least give it a shot? It worked for Dickey just like picking up the split made Bruce Sutter a HOF pitcher instead of a petroleum transfer technician.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Dick Allen

[sunofgold]

I was joking about the knuckleball. C'mon it is roger Clemens. He brings the heat.

[Jake]

Having too much muscle is a splendid and rare problem, even for your average steroid user

[Kyyle23]

While obviously you are correct that it is a difficult pitch to master, the question is why don't more guys that are basically at the end of the line at least give it a shot? It worked for Dickey just like picking up the split made Bruce Sutter a HOF pitcher instead of a petroleum transfer technician.

 

I bet a lot of pitchers have tried it out. From what I have read, pitchers that master the knuckle have really long fingers so they can really grip the ball with their knuckles or tips of their fingers(like Hough used to do).

 

I think guys like Clemens are better off going to the split anyways, and I am pretty sure CLemens featured that heavily late in his career. It makes their once amazing fastball get extra life in the mind of the hitter because of how the splitter dives.