Official 2010-2011 NCAA Basketball Thread

[hitlesswonder]

I dunno, I'm torn. I don't think you can make a move even if they have a one and down in the tournament this year. I think you have to ride it out a couple more seasons with the talent he's bringing in. Yes, a lot of the talent is because of Howard, but they still have to play for the coach, so you risk losing on some big name guys if they don't like the coach.

 

The Illinois DIA is pretty conservative so I'm sure they won't make a move even if Illinois misses the tournament. That said, I don't think that the Illinois recruiting class is any reason to keep Weber. Few if any of those guys would bolt if Illinois hired a different coach, and several would probably welcome someone else taking over the program. Moreover, the only class with commitments is the 2011 class and that class looks like it's nothing special per ESPN:

 

77 Mycheal Henry

79 Mike Shaw

84 Nnanna Egwu

87 Tracy Abrams

Langford unranked

 

And it's questionable if any of those guys will actually improve their game once they get to Illinois. As testimony to that, look at Stan Simpson who after moving to a junior college is being recruited by Memphis and Kentucky among others. Why can a JC coaching staff develop players better than a BCS school's staff? Sort of odd.

Edited January 28, 2011 by hitlesswonder

[whitesoxfan99]

The Illinois DIA is pretty conservative so I'm sure they won't make a move even if Illinois misses the tournament. That said, I don't think that the Illinois recruiting class is any reason to keep Weber. Few if any of those guys would bolt if Illinois hired a different coach, and several would probably welcome someone else taking over the program. Moreover, the only class with commitments is the 2011 class and that class looks like it's nothing special per ESPN:

 

77 Mycheal Henry

79 Mike Shaw

84 Nnanna Egwu

87 Tracy Abrams

Langford unranked

 

And it's questionable if any of those guys will actually improve their game once they get to Illinois. As testimony to that, look at Stan Simpson who after moving to a junior college is being recruited by Memphis and Kentucky among others. Why can a JC coaching staff develop players better than a BCS school's staff? Sort of odd.

 

ESPN recruiting rankings suck really really badly. Look at RSCI and rivals. In reality Illinois has 3 top 50ish type players in that class in Shaw, Henry and Abrams and then Egwu is a top 100 kid who probably has more potential than any player in the state (for the class of 2011) not named Anthony Davis (arguments can also be made for Henry, Blackshear and Thompson, although Thompson still doesn't produce enough for my liking) when you look at the amount that he has improved over the last 2 years. Langford is a boom or bust kid, positives are that he is 6'7, handles the ball well, seems to have good court vision, and he is long and athletic for a wing but on the negative side he isn't always assertive and he doesn't always dominate the way he should. Worth taking a flyer on though IMO considering they had space and the 2012 HS class in Illinois is quite possibly the worst group of players in state history.

[LittleHurt05]

The fact of the matter is, as much as we like to b**** about Weber and talk about firing him, he presently has a contract through 2015. Knowing Ron Guenther, no way he fires him before like 2013 unless it gets way, way worse than this. Weber is gonna have to figure this out, one way or another.

[farmteam]

, one of the most storied programs in the country, celebrating their historical win over #21 Illinois with the towering tandem of Mike & Mike.

 

That actually doesn't bother me like storming the court did. It was the first win over a ranked opponent in Crean's tenure, and we've been starving for this. I actually think it's neat he went to the lobby.

Edited January 28, 2011 by farmteam

[Soxbadger]

Rock,

 

Both. We all know Gottlieb doesnt know anything about basketball

[danman31]

Illinois 5-10 years ago was a top job, now it's just an good job.

I don't think that's true. If Illinois was a top job 5-10 years ago, Self wouldn't have left for Kansas.

[Soxbadger]

Depends on how you define top.

 

Kansas is an "elite" job (imo). You are talking about only a handful of schools that would have the "elite" ranking. And even the Kansas coach left for UNC, another elite job.

 

Illinois is a top job. Illinois has had consistent success recruiting Chicago, which is one of the most talented areas in the nation. In terms of the Big 10, Id say Illinois is near the top, if not the top job. Arguably OSU/MSU are up there, but in terms of raw numbers of instate talent Id give the edge to Illinois.

 

I guess if you are talking about one of the top 25 jobs in the nation, its a top job to me. Plenty of people would take the job at Illinois, and only a few would not even consider it.

[RockRaines]

Depends on how you define top.

 

Kansas is an "elite" job (imo). You are talking about only a handful of schools that would have the "elite" ranking. And even the Kansas coach left for UNC, another elite job.

 

Illinois is a top job. Illinois has had consistent success recruiting Chicago, which is one of the most talented areas in the nation. In terms of the Big 10, Id say Illinois is near the top, if not the top job. Arguably OSU/MSU are up there, but in terms of raw numbers of instate talent Id give the edge to Illinois.

 

I guess if you are talking about one of the top 25 jobs in the nation, its a top job to me. Plenty of people would take the job at Illinois, and only a few would not even consider it.

I agree. There are maybe 5 elite jobs in the country and a whole bunch of top jobs. You have to think Duke, UNC, Kentucky and Kansas are elite jobs and add in the top Big East program at the moment. I dont think any elite jobs exist in the Big Ten or Pac 10.

[He_Gawn]

ESPN recruiting rankings suck really really badly. Look at RSCI and rivals. In reality Illinois has 3 top 50ish type players in that class in Shaw, Henry and Abrams and then Egwu is a top 100 kid who probably has more potential than any player in the state (for the class of 2011) not named Anthony Davis (arguments can also be made for Henry, Blackshear and Thompson, although Thompson still doesn't produce enough for my liking) when you look at the amount that he has improved over the last 2 years. Langford is a boom or bust kid, positives are that he is 6'7, handles the ball well, seems to have good court vision, and he is long and athletic for a wing but on the negative side he isn't always assertive and he doesn't always dominate the way he should. Worth taking a flyer on though IMO considering they had space and the 2012 HS class in Illinois is quite possibly the worst group of players in state history.

 

 

Dave Telep took over ESPN's rankings, they are pretty damn good now.

[ZoomSlowik]

I don't think that's true. If Illinois was a top job 5-10 years ago, Self wouldn't have left for Kansas.

 

I would second that. I would argue that it's 4th in the Big Ten behind OSU, MSU and Indiana (though obviously that last one is going through a rough patch), much less programs like UNC and Kentucky.

[LittleHurt05]

I would second that. I would argue that it's 4th in the Big Ten behind OSU, MSU and Indiana (though obviously that last one is going through a rough patch), much less programs like UNC and Kentucky.

 

I would have to disagree that OSU is the top job. Yes, Matta has shown how successful you can be there, how many good recruits you can get, and of course the athletic dept. is loaded. However, no matter what you win, you are always gonna be second fiddle to OSU football. I just think that a top basketball coach would rather be the #1 attraction on campus, not always be in the background to Sweater Vest. If you look at all the elite jobs, none of them have a top football program to compete with.

[ZoomSlowik]

I agree. There are maybe 5 elite jobs in the country and a whole bunch of top jobs. You have to think Duke, UNC, Kentucky and Kansas are elite jobs and add in the top Big East program at the moment. I dont think any elite jobs exist in the Big Ten or Pac 10.

 

I think there are a fair number more than that. Schools like UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA and Indiana have been considered elite for quite some time, there are other ones that one great coach has made elite like Duke, Syracuse, MSU and UConn, and there are others that cycle into the elite bracket from time to time (OSU right now, Florida 5 years ago, Memphis before Calipari left, Michigan 20 years ago, ect).

 

Illinois can easily cycle to the elite group with a solid run of success, but they haven't really had any kind of sustained run in recent history. There's no chance I'd call them a top-10 program right now and you can probably argue they're lower than that.

[Soxbadger]

I would argue that it's 4th in the Big Ten behind OSU, MSU and Indiana

 

Eh I think youre overrating the Indiana job.

 

Right now if Crean, Izzo, Matta and Weber all left their respective schools, id say that MSU, OSU, Illinois are a toss up (Id go Illinois, OSU, MSU) and that Indiana is significantly behind.

 

(Edit)

 

Indiana hasnt been an elite job since Bob Knight left. Im sorry but Mike Davis, Kelvin Sampson and Tom Crean are all B level or worse coaches.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Soxbadger

[ZoomSlowik]

I would have to disagree that OSU is the top job. Yes, Matta has shown how successful you can be there, how many good recruits you can get, and of course the athletic dept. is loaded. However, no matter what you win, you are always gonna be second fiddle to OSU football. I just think that a top basketball coach would rather be the #1 attraction on campus, not always be in the background to Sweater Vest. If you look at all the elite jobs, none of them have a top football program to compete with.

 

That doesn't make any sense. So because Illinois football generally sucks that makes them an elite/potentially elite basketball school?

 

I don't really think that matters at all, not if you have the kind of funding, facilities, recruiting and coaching that OSU basketball has right now. Florida was top-dog for a few years there despite an equally elite football team, and Texas has a pretty solid program despite being a heavy football school. Football is going to top basketball every time anyways if the former goes on a solid run.

[ZoomSlowik]

Eh I think youre overrating the Indiana job.

 

Right now if Crean, Izzo, Matta and Weber all left their respective schools, id say that MSU, OSU, Illinois are a toss up (Id go Illinois, OSU, MSU) and that Indiana is significantly behind.

 

(Edit)

 

Indiana hasnt been an elite job since Bob Knight left. Im sorry but Mike Davis, Kelvin Sampson and Tom Crean are all B level or worse coaches.

 

I said that's a program that's going through a rough patch right now. It happens from time to time. Kentucky was a bit down before and after Pitino, UNC in the Matt Daugherty era, UCLA for long periods, it happens.

 

I still think most coaches would tell you it's one of the top jobs in the country because of their tradition and fan base.

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

I think there are a fair number more than that. Schools like UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA and Indiana have been considered elite for quite some time, there are other ones that one great coach has made elite like Duke, Syracuse, MSU and UConn, and there are others that cycle into the elite bracket from time to time (OSU right now, Florida 5 years ago, Memphis before Calipari left, Michigan 20 years ago, ect).

 

Discussing elite programs is different than elite jobs. Yes, Calipari may have made Memphis an elite program for several years as a #1 & #2 seed consistently, but it was never an elite coaching job. It's not like any big names were jumping at that position when he left.

[LittleHurt05]

That doesn't make any sense. So because Illinois football generally sucks that makes them an elite/potentially elite basketball school?

 

I don't really think that matters at all, not if you have the kind of funding, facilities, recruiting and coaching that OSU basketball has right now. Florida was top-dog for a few years there despite an equally elite football team, and Texas has a pretty solid program despite being a heavy football school. Football is going to top basketball every time anyways if the former goes on a solid run.

 

I get what you are saying. If Coach K or Roy Williams were suddenly jobless and had the choice between MSU & OSU, I think that they may pick MSU over OSU, simply because they know they would be the top dog on campus. I just believe that is a factor when selecting which jobs are on the top of the list.

[ZoomSlowik]

Discussing elite programs is different than elite jobs. Yes, Calipari may have made Memphis an elite program for several years as a #1 & #2 seed consistently, but it was never an elite coaching job. It's not like any big names were jumping at that position when he left.

 

I never said anything about Memphis, other than that they were elite for a short period. Ohio State has a lot more going for it than just having one of the best recruiters in the country. If Matta were to leave, I don't think they'd have a whole lot of trouble replacing him with a solid coach given the resources at their disposal.

[Soxbadger]

I still think most coaches would tell you it's one of the top jobs in the country because of their tradition and fan base.

 

And if Indiana is a top program, so is Illinois. I just dont see what advantage Indiana has over Illinois going forward. Indiana's tradition was years ago, and furthermore they have not shown the ability to keep the top in state recruits from leaving.

 

Conversely, Illinois was in the NCAA finals within the last 10 years and has had significant success recruiting in Chicago.

 

If I was going to be given a Big 10 team, no way would I consider Indiana over Illinois.

[ZoomSlowik]

I get what you are saying. If Coach K or Roy Williams were suddenly jobless and had the choice between MSU & OSU, I think that they may pick MSU over OSU, simply because they know they would be the top dog on campus. I just believe that is a factor when selecting which jobs are on the top of the list.

 

I really don't think most coaches would care, certainly not nearly as much as with things like salary, facilities, fan support, program tradition and recruiting base.

 

Since both of those coaches are already higher on the totem pole, let's go with a different hypothetical: how confident would you be in Illinois getting their candidate of choice if Texas also offered him the job? I know I wouldn't be terribly confident.

[ZoomSlowik]

And if Indiana is a top program, so is Illinois. I just dont see what advantage Indiana has over Illinois going forward. Indiana's tradition was years ago, and furthermore they have not shown the ability to keep the top in state recruits from leaving.

 

Conversely, Illinois was in the NCAA finals within the last 10 years and has had significant success recruiting in Chicago.

 

If I was going to be given a Big 10 team, no way would I consider Indiana over Illinois.

 

There's no question that Illinois is a better program right now. However, that's not exactly saying much since Indiana was basically scorched earth after Sampson. That also may or may not be the case 5 years from now. It certainly wasn't the case for the previous 30 years before they forced Knight out. Heck, even with Davis they made a Final Four.

 

Illinois hasn't shown any kind of consistency as a program, something Indiana at least used to have. They haven't exactly kept the top recruits in state either. In 5 classes from 2003 to 2008, they signed a total of 3 4-star recruits. They've done a hell of a lot better the last 3 years, but like every school, they lose a few. Julian Wright, Jon Scheyer, Shannon Brown, Evan Turner, Sherron Collins, Derrick Rose, Anthony Davis, Wayne Blackshear, to name several.

 

Illinois is a loaded area so they still do pretty well. That said, they've also had way more on the court success than Indiana of late when they still got high-demand recruits like Zeller, Watford and Creek (albiet the last two aren't helping them much).

 

Indiana is at its' lowest point right now. That doesn't mean a quality coach can't/won't show up like Roy Williams or Ben Howland did at two of the other traditional powerhouses and get them out of their funk. You didn't seem too hot about their Sampson or Crean hirings, but I'd bet that those two have a higher profile than the next Illinois hire.

 

I feel like Illinois has the POTENTIAL to be a damn good job. By no means is it there right now though. For whatever reason, Indiana just has more cache as a program. Even when they suck, they still hired a fairly solid coach and can get a few good recruits in there.

Edited January 28, 2011 by ZoomSlowik

[LittleHurt05]

I really don't think most coaches would care, certainly not nearly as much as with things like salary, facilities, fan support, program tradition and recruiting base.

 

Since both of those coaches are already higher on the totem pole, let's go with a different hypothetical: how confident would you be in Illinois getting their candidate of choice if Texas also offered him the job? I know I wouldn't be terribly confident.

 

That's a good example. I would hope that Illinois would be the choice, but the candidate picking Texas would not surprise me due to the abudance of resources they have.

 

The fan support at OSU is another thing, since the fans dont care as much about the basketball as what goes on at the Horseshoe. I believe they didnt sell out this week as the #1 team playing the 2nd best team in the conference. I'm not trying to downplay Ohio State as some crap basketball job, but as compared to the top jobs, I think it could be a slight factor.

[hitlesswonder]

And if Indiana is a top program, so is Illinois. I just dont see what advantage Indiana has over Illinois going forward. Indiana's tradition was years ago, and furthermore they have not shown the ability to keep the top in state recruits from leaving.

 

I think Indiana is a more coveted job. Witness the fact that Crean went to Indiana after holding press conference previously in which he essentially said he would not leave Marquette for Illinois. Indiana has a better recruiting base than Illinois -- they can pull recruits from Chicago just as easily as Illinois plus they have an advantage over Illinois recruiting the state of Indiana. Crean's incoming classes are significantly better than Illinois. The Indiana fanbase in terms of selling out the arena is better. And Indiana has the history that give it a bigger national media presence than Illinois.

 

It's true Indiana hasn't put up W's much lately, but I think you'll see Indiana basketball leave Illinois in the dust starting as soon as next year and definitely by 2012.

Edited January 28, 2011 by hitlesswonder

[ZoomSlowik]

I think Indiana is a far more coveted job. Witness the fact that Crean went to Indiana after holding press conference previously in which he essentially said he would not leave Marquette for Illinois. Indiana has a better recruiting base than Illinois -- they can pull recruits from Chicago just as easily as Illinois plus they have an advantage over Illinois recruiting the state of Indiana. Crean's incoming classes are light years better than Illinois. The Indiana fanbase in terms of selling out the arena is better. And Indiana has the history that give it a bigger national media presence than Illinois.

 

It's true Indiana hasn't put up W's much lately, but I think you'll see Indiana basketball leave Illinois in the dust starting as soon as next year and definitely by 2012.

 

I wouldn't go as far to say the bolded part.

 

The Assembly Hall (the Champaign one) is a pretty packed and highly regarded home venue, so at best that's a push for IU (though I agree nationally they're pretty highly regarded).

 

On the recruiting front, Illinois has 9 4-stars from the 2009-2011 classes (several of them in the top-50) which gives them a highly talented roster. Over that same period Indiana got one 5 and 3 4's (and on top of that Creek has been hurt a lot and Elston hasn't made much of an impact).

 

I will say that IU is off to a HUGE start recruiting in 2012 with two 5's and a 4 and Zeller was a huge get. That gives them a chance to turn things around from 2012-2013 on.

Edited January 28, 2011 by ZoomSlowik

[Balta1701]

I will say that IU is off to a HUGE start recruiting in 2012 with two 5's and a 4 and Zeller was a huge get. That gives them a chance to turn things around from 2012-2013 on.

This alum doesn't care about leaving people in the dust, he just wants to be competitive again.