Official 2010-2011 NCAA Basketball Thread

[fathom]

I like to see the delicate balance between people who hated Weber during the season yet want him to stay. Its a tough situation to be in. Of course he will stay, underachieve, and will be ridiculed for yet another season.

 

As someone that hates Illinois, the worst thing that could happen would be for Weber to leave. I can't see how they wouldn't bring in a better coach. As long as Jerrance is on the bench, recruiting will be fine.

[Jenksismyhero]

As someone that hates Illinois, the worst thing that could happen would be for Weber to leave. I can't see how they wouldn't bring in a better coach. As long as Jerrance is on the bench, recruiting will be fine.

 

Yeah, I'm one of the fire Weber guys, but really i'm right on the fence. I think he had a terrible recruiting stretch right out of the gate that really messed up the program. He's had some serious upperclassman issues (Pruitt/Randle, Meachum/Frazier, McCamey/Tisdale/Davis). Obviously it's ultimately his responsibility, but I think things would have been different if Gordon had kept his commitment and if Jamar Smith hadn't nearly killed a teammate and violated the terms of his suspension. Those are issues that even the best programs can't necessarily recover from.

 

That said, his inability to look at his current team and make adjustments kills me. It's like he's so dead set on his way of playing that he'd rather they lose than win. I think a good coach tries his philosophy, but if it's not working you change for the short term. Shaka Smart might be overrated, but that's exactly what he did in the middle of this year. He was dead set against playing a zone or pressing, but he decided to try it and it's clearly helped his team win games.

 

Mostly though I think he is learning from his past recruiting mistakes. He's not settling for guys with skills, but now he's seeking out guys with the skills AND the right attitude. Tisdale and McCamey were skilled, but they were incredibly soft. He's getting guys like Abrams and Shaw who want to destroy you, not just play better than you.

[Brian]

Chris Lowery to OU??!?!

[Chisoxfn]

Ha. Hey at least I realized early on this year that the team was going to be a disappointment. If we land Shaka Smart I'm happy Painter stayed.

That guy is going to be a collosal failure.

[maggsmaggs]

That guy is going to be a collosal failure.

I wouldn't say he is going to be a colossal failure, but nor do I think he is gonna be a Coach K. Bottom line is that his team got really hot at the right time. He is an expert at motivating and seems to be a solid Xs and Os coach. He probably won't have a stadium named after him, but he should be a perennial NCAA coach who gets to many Sweet 16s.

Edited March 31, 2011 by maggsmaggs

[Rowand44]

That guy is going to be a collosal failure.

I wouldn't go that far. He's most likely overrated at this point but the guy can clearly coach and his players seem to love him. Obviously, the most important thing for a mid major coach is to find out if he can recruit at a higher level and I don't think Shaka is going to have a hard time doing that.

[Chisoxfn]

I wouldn't say he is going to be a colossal failure, but nor do I think he is gonna be a Coach K. Bottom line is that his team got really hot at the right time. He is an expert at motivating and seems to be a solid Xs and Os coach. He probably won't have a stadium named after him, but he should be a perennial NCAA coach who gets to many Sweet 16s.

Look, I don't buy into the hype of one tourney run, especially when his team has just gotten incredibly hot and played out of there ass for a short run. THey also didn't play many good teams, until they finally beat Kansas. And no, Purdue wasn't great.

 

I'm just saying, some people are going to think he's the next great thing, but more than likely, he'll fail miserably and not be able to recruit top talent in a major conference and end up fired a few years down the road and go back to being a mid-major guy.

 

Brad Stevens on the other hand, I buy into. That is a really well coached team and it takes more than just luck to make back to back final 4's. X's and O's that squad is just on par.

 

Long story short, Stevens is legit, Shacka is not.

[maggsmaggs]

I wouldn't go that far. He's most likely overrated at this point but the guy can clearly coach and his players seem to love him. Obviously, the most important thing for a mid major coach is to find out if he can recruit at a higher level and I don't think Shaka is going to have a hard time doing that.

I actually think at the right school, he could become one of the best recruiters in the country. He's just got that charismatic personality that can appeal to everyone: the players, the coaches, the parents, etc.

[Chisoxfn]

I wouldn't go that far. He's most likely overrated at this point but the guy can clearly coach and his players seem to love him. Obviously, the most important thing for a mid major coach is to find out if he can recruit at a higher level and I don't think Shaka is going to have a hard time doing that.

Its going to be a lot harder. He's going to be going against athletic, top notch basketball teams all the time and without having a strong recruiting pipeline, etc, he's going to have a hell of a time at Mizzu, imo.

 

It happens a lot with these mid-major guys. I'm not saying Shacka isn't necessarily a good coach, but at this point, with his experience, I think he's going to end up a failure at a major program.

 

A few years down the road that might change. I also wouldn't blame him if he did leave though, this is his one shot to be the next hot commodity and to make good money out of it and if he fails he'll still end up with a mid-major job somewhere, probably one that is still a step-up from VCU.

[maggsmaggs]

Look, I don't buy into the hype of one tourney run, especially when his team has just gotten incredibly hot and played out of there ass for a short run. THey also didn't play many good teams, until they finally beat Kansas. And no, Purdue wasn't great.

 

I'm just saying, some people are going to think he's the next great thing, but more than likely, he'll fail miserably and not be able to recruit top talent in a major conference and end up fired a few years down the road and go back to being a mid-major guy.

 

Brad Stevens on the other hand, I buy into. That is a really well coached team and it takes more than just luck to make back to back final 4's. X's and O's that squad is just on par.

 

Long story short, Stevens is legit, Shacka is not.

He been a head coach for two damn years. Way to early to proclaim he will fail. But on the flip side, way too early to say he is the next best thing.

[Chisoxfn]

He been a head coach for two damn years. Way to early to proclaim he will fail. But on the flip side, way too early to say he is the next best thing.

Two years of head coaching experience at a little school is all the reason I need to think he'll fail in a major conference. Recruiting is different in a power conference as is coaching. He'll get eaten alive and be yet another failure in the history of coaches that make one strong tourney run and parlay it into a head coaching job.

 

I'm not saying years down the road he doesn't succeed somewhere, but at this piont in time, asking him to lead your power conference school is a mistake, unless you can't get a quality, more proven mid-major coach at a minimum.

[Rowand44]

Its going to be a lot harder. He's going to be going against athletic, top notch basketball teams all the time and without having a strong recruiting pipeline, etc, he's going to have a hell of a time at Mizzu, imo.

 

It happens a lot with these mid-major guys. I'm not saying Shacka isn't necessarily a good coach, but at this point, with his experience, I think he's going to end up a failure at a major program.

 

A few years down the road that might change. I also wouldn't blame him if he did leave though, this is his one shot to be the next hot commodity and to make good money out of it and if he fails he'll still end up with a mid-major job somewhere, probably one that is still a step-up from VCU.

Well, like I said, recruiting is certainly going to be the biggest challenge. But as Maggs said, a young, charismatic coach shouldn't have that much trouble recruiting especially with all the hype and airtime he's gotten because of this final four run. But that's still a wait and see just as everything else is at this point.

 

I say he's overrated right because he's so damn inexperienced, so it's too early to say he's the next big thing and it's too early to say that he's just a lucky coach living off one NCAA run. That being said, the momentum from this run should be enough to tear up the recruiting trail if he does it correctly and that alone should make it worth the risk for a bcs program to give him a shot.

[RockRaines]

Arent we all fans of coaches that made their way in mid-majors before they got their shot?

[whitesoxfan99]

Arent we all fans of coaches that made their way in mid-majors before they got their shot?

 

Generally those coaches didn't finish 5th and 4th in their conferences, miss the tourney their first year and were one shot away from missing the tourney their 2nd year. Smart has had an incredible run but VCU's performance last year and prior to the tourney this year leaves a ton to be desired. They have played out of their minds and shot way above their capabilities for a 5 game stretch but that doesn't make him a great coach. But I do agree that any time you hire a mid major coach you are getting an unproven commodity so you just have to wait and see how he does at a bigger job.

[Buehrle>Wood]

They've now beaten UCLA, Old Dominion, George Mason, USC, Georgetown, Purdue, Florida State, Kansas and another kenpom top 30 team in WSU. They're pretty good. Shaka got into Harvard too. I would trust him with my program.

[fathom]

I'd take Shaka above all these other coaches being hired or rumored to be up for jobs like Gregory, Weber, and Painter. Shaka was known as a terrific recruiter prior to this season, and you're nuts if you don't think players will want to play for him if he was at a power 6 conference job. I've been very impressed with how under control his team plays despite playing a fast style.

[Rowand44]

Generally those coaches didn't finish 5th and 4th in their conferences, miss the tourney their first year and were one shot away from missing the tourney their 2nd year. Smart has had an incredible run but VCU's performance last year and prior to the tourney this year leaves a ton to be desired. They have played out of their minds and shot way above their capabilities for a 5 game stretch but that doesn't make him a great coach. But I do agree that any time you hire a mid major coach you are getting an unproven commodity so you just have to wait and see how he does at a bigger job.

Still, how many of those coaches that you're talking about have been to a final four when they were at their mid major job?

 

Like I said, I have no clue whether this guy is going to be something special or if he'll be a bust down the road but at least for the next couple of years he should be able to ride this momentum into some pretty solid recruiting classes at a bcs school.

[whitesoxfan99]

Still, how many of those coaches that you're talking about have been to a final four when they were at their mid major job?

 

Like I said, I have no clue whether this guy is going to be something special or if he'll be a bust down the road but at least for the next couple of years he should be able to ride this momentum into some pretty solid recruiting classes at a bcs school.

 

He would certainly be on my short list for Illinois just not at the top. I'm just more pointing out how ridiculous it is nationally that suddenly Smart is this brilliant coach based on a fluke 5 game run.

Edited March 31, 2011 by whitesoxfan99

[fathom]

He would certainly be on my short list for Illinois just not at the top. I'm just more pointing out how ridiculous it is national that suddenly Smart is this brilliant coach based on a fluke 5 game run.

 

The thing that sucks is Smart and Mooney were options 1 and 2 for the GT job, but their tourney runs priced them out of GT's budget. Go back and check my posts from a month ago or so about the GT opening on here.

[kjshoe04]

He would certainly be on my short list for Illinois just not at the top. I'm just more pointing out how ridiculous it is national that suddenly Smart is this brilliant coach based on a fluke 5 game run.

When does it stop being a fluke? Is it a fluke if they win the whole thing?

[Chisoxfn]

When you do it multiple timese (e.g., multiple tourney appearances). And no, I'm not saying he needs to get his team back to the final 4.

 

And I think the ease of recruiting and what goes on in the recruiting process isn't near what some of you think. He's going to go in and recruit with some major players on these guys.

 

Who are you going to listen to: Shaka or a Coach K, a Roy/Gary Williams, Self, even a Painter or Weber, who have all proven a lot more and won a lot more in there tenure and in a major conference.

[fathom]

When you do it multiple timese (e.g., multiple tourney appearances). And no, I'm not saying he needs to get his team back to the final 4.

 

And I think the ease of recruiting and what goes on in the recruiting process isn't near what some of you think. He's going to go in and recruit with some major players on these guys.

 

Who are you going to listen to: Shaka or a Coach K, a Roy/Gary Williams, Self, even a Painter or Weber, who have all proven a lot more and won a lot more in there tenure and in a major conference.

 

Matt Painter and Gary Williams are pretty dreadful recruiters. No doubt in my mind that Shaka at a big program would recruit significantly better than Painter and Williams and a Jerrance-less Weber would.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Chisoxfn

[maggsmaggs]

When you do it multiple timese (e.g., multiple tourney appearances). And no, I'm not saying he needs to get his team back to the final 4.

 

And I think the ease of recruiting and what goes on in the recruiting process isn't near what some of you think. He's going to go in and recruit with some major players on these guys.

 

Who are you going to listen to: Shaka or a Coach K, a Gary Williams, Self, even a Painter or Weber, who have all proven a lot more and won a lot more in there tenure and in a major conference.

A ton of recruiting is about coaches and how they relate with the players. Maybe the top 20 kids in the country want to know how you will get me from freshman to NBA in one year, but the four-star recruits can easily be swayed by a young, energetic and charismatic coach. Josh Pastnor at Memphis isn't Coach K, Self, etc., but he is young, relentless and affable. He has gotten studs for Memphis the last two years. It will be very similar for Shaka once he gets at a good power conference school.

[danman31]

Generally those coaches didn't finish 5th and 4th in their conferences, miss the tourney their first year and were one shot away from missing the tourney their 2nd year.

Bruce Weber at SIU: 15-12 (t-5th MVC), 20-13 (3rd MVC; NIT 2nd round), 16-14 (t-4th MVC), 28-8 (t-1st MVC; Sweet 16), 24-7 (1st MVC; NCAA 1st round)

Bill Self didn't make the postseason until his fourth year at Oral Roberts and that was the NIT. He didn't make the tourney in his first year with Tulsa and went 9-5 in the WAC in year two (with a tourney appearance).

Tom Izzo didn't make the tourney until his 3rd year at Michigan State.

 

Generally everyone does exactly what you just said.

 

I'd take Shaka above all these other coaches being hired or rumored to be up for jobs like Gregory, Weber, and Painter.

I think that's fairly clear at this point. Unless you can get a Matt Painter type (and really, meh) who is potentially frustrated at his major job, Shaka is the most attractive candidate.

[RockRaines]

Bruce Weber at SIU: 15-12 (t-5th MVC), 20-13 (3rd MVC; NIT 2nd round), 16-14 (t-4th MVC), 28-8 (t-1st MVC; Sweet 16), 24-7 (1st MVC; NCAA 1st round)

Bill Self didn't make the postseason until his fourth year at Oral Roberts and that was the NIT. He didn't make the tourney in his first year with Tulsa and went 9-5 in the WAC in year two (with a tourney appearance).

Tom Izzo didn't make the tourney until his 3rd year at Michigan State.

 

Generally everyone does exactly what you just said.

 

 

I think that's fairly clear at this point. Unless you can get a Matt Painter type (and really, meh) who is potentially frustrated at his major job, Shaka is the most attractive candidate.

SNAP. Great info, thanks