How can anyone...

[Marty34]

Cubs fans blame managers, Sox fans know better.

[justBLAZE]

To be fair Ozzie managed well yesterday both games of the DH, today not so much, overall I put him in the middle of the pack. Leaving Buehrle in there to die had bad written all over it, fathom even called the Martinez HR. We won the game, nothing else matters.

[Wanne]

Ozzie does some dumb s***...absolutely. I think every manager does things that come back and bite him in the ass. But to be honest...no matter how many dumbass things he does he's still our manager and pretty much the face of this franchise whether you like it or not. Let's not count out the other intangibles he has like how players react to him...or shows confidence in them. Hey...today...I thought it was ridiculous that Omar wasn't playing 2B and Teahen wasn't playing 3rd (not to mention leaving Manny out of the lineup...but given Kotsay's numbers against Beckett)...but bottom line is he knows this team and has the pulse better than anybody on this board. Was it dumb to leave Mark out there to face Martinez...f*** yes...but we lived to tell about. I hope Ozzie's manager for another 10 years...no matter how bats*** crazy he drives everybody.

[scenario]

Most hard core fans of MLB teams think their manager is an idiot.

[TheBigHurt]

I hope Ozzie's manager for another 10 years...no matter how bats*** crazy he drives everybody.

 

STONE HIM!!!

 

 

Most hard core fans of MLB teams think their manager is an idiot.

 

Common sense and attention to detail will tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ozzie Guillen has no clue how to manage a baseball team.

Edited September 6, 2010 by TheBigHurt

[Kyyle23]

Common sense and attention to detail will tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ozzie Guillen has no clue how to manage a baseball team.

 

Thats your opinion. He does stupid s***, surely, but he knows enough to be managing a baseball team. Im pretty sure he would be gone if he didnt. Of course, Im sure you and all of your common sense and attention to detail are next in line for a managerial position in the bigs

[TheBigHurt]

Thats your opinion. He does stupid s***, surely, but he knows enough to be managing a baseball team.

 

No, that's a FACT. When a man CONSTANTLY screws up the easiest of strategic scenarios NUMEROUS time PER GAME, he's simply not a competent manager. Even a vast majority of posters here would be smart enough to yank a pitcher who's pitch count is 120+ and is hanging every pitch he's throwing in a current inning. I shouldn't need numerous examples. If you don't understand this, you aren't paying attention to many ballgames.

 

 

Im pretty sure he would be gone if he didnt.

 

He HASN'T... for years now. And what have we been saying? Blind loyalty is a killer. You make it sound as if every organization always makes every decision correctly. Saying "I'm pretty sure he would be gone if he didn't" is display of ignorance of astronomical proportions; it's naivety to the extreme. You're basically suggesting every organization always does the correct thing and makes no mistakes. If that's not your line of thinking, then you worded that post very incorrectly.

 

 

Of course, Im sure you and all of your common sense and attention to detail are next in line for a managerial position in the bigs

 

Typical "I don't know how to make a counterpoint" response. Not saying I could be, but dammit I at least pay enough attention to statistics to know when a certain hitter/pitcher shouldn't face another pitcher/hitter. Ironically, the only time Ozzie seems to use this correctly is when Mark f***ing Kotsay is involved.

 

 

I figured there had to be at least one of you still wandering around here.

Edited September 6, 2010 by TheBigHurt

[Kyyle23]

Hurt, stop hyperbolizing. You dont like him, fine. Your opinion is not fact. Dont act as if you know my loyalty, and do not suggest that my post is typed incorrectly. Stop couching arguments. This s*** "If you don't understand this, you aren't paying attention to many ballgames." is what got you in trouble before.

 

In short, stop right now.

[TheBigHurt]

Hurt, stop hyperbolizing. You dont like him, fine. Your opinion is not fact. Dont act as if you know my loyalty, and do not suggest that my post is typed incorrectly. Stop couching arguments. This s*** "If you don't understand this, you aren't paying attention to many ballgames." is what got you in trouble before.

 

In short, stop right now.

 

Okay, let me try again.

 

 

How am I hyperbolizing? You said, QUOTE, "I'm sure they would if he was." That means you are saying if Ozzie was being an unfit manager (which he is), they would fire him. That defies common sense because that's making the assumption people will always make the right decision, and that's simply ignorant. Therefore, you either worded your post incorrectly or are misinformed, it's that simple. If it's against the rules to call someone ignorant, that blows my mind; it's a perfectly technical word to describe someone who is misinformed or unaware of something. So please give me a substitute for the word "ignorant" I can use if that's getting me in trouble. If someone's being ignorant about something, I'm going to say so. It's not an insult; it's a perfectly technical term. We are ALL ignorant about things in life; there's nothing wrong with that. The thing about not paying attention to ballgames is simply true. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO to see that Ozzie mismanages this team to a point of stupidity is watch games. I can't understand how anyone who pays attention can miss this stuff. And for the record, seemingly a vast majority of the board agrees with me, sir.

 

So if your loyalty is NOT as I have analyzed it, please set me straight because why else would you deny Ozzie is an unfit manager when he CLEARLY is?

 

Whatever I did wrong I apologize for, but you'll have to point out what that is because I don't see it. I'm generally frank with my posts and not sugar coat them; I prefer to be honest to get the point across. I don't do it to be insulting, I do it so my point can be made clearly and absolutely. I'm sorry if that's offending you.

 

 

I'm taking your post literally. If I'm incorrect on some of these things, please correct me specifically on them because you've left your posts to be literally taken the way I have analyzed them.

Edited September 6, 2010 by TheBigHurt

[ScottyDo]

I've brought this up in two threads, but I think it applies here:

 

Go back and look at March's posts. Many of us thought we would make the playoffs, but those people exclusively thought it would be because of lights-out, insane pitching and no offense. Almost everybody who posts regularly had us under 700 runs. We're outperforming that, for sure, so whose fault is it that we were so wrong? Did KW get us a more talented team than we thought, or does Ozzie, by and large, get the best out of his players?

 

My personal opinion is that KW deserves most of that credit, but I also think Ozzie is pretty damn good at maximizing talent. Even if his in-game decisions are not great, or even good sometimes, he's damn good at the rest of the job. Which is more important? I don't know. But calling him clueless is clueless in itself. He's good at one thing and bad at another.

 

As far as today's issue goes, I vehemently disagree with most people here. Yes, it was a bad idea to leave Buehrle in. It was noted before the game even started that Martinez kills Buehrle. Farmer and DJ noted at the time that it was about time to take MB out. But by and large, Ozzie leaves his starters in for the correct amount of time and manages his bullpen to win games. Every manager will have a good amount of games where he leaves the starter in a batter too long...EVERYBODY. If Ozzie had a high rate of making that particular mistake, I'd agree with everyone, but I really have not noticed that to be the case. At this point, it's just anger at Ozzie because the angst level runs high around here.

 

I dunno, I actually don't love Ozzie, but the gathering mobs are getting ridiculous. Bigger picture, Ozzie has had a fine season. It's just a lot easier to point at Kotsay and say "BAD!" than it is to point at the overall performance of the team in wins and losses/runs scored and say "GOOD!", so people are completely ignoring it.

 

And what Melissa says has always rung true to me: if we fired Ozzie and ended up with someone like Eric Wedge, I'd be beyond pissed. It's not a reason to keep him around forever, but I'd much rather keep him -- until he loses the team completely or we know we have a better option -- than make a knee-jerk move. Let's not forget, we haven't had a manager of even Ozzie's moderate caliber since LaRussa, and we fired him prematurely.

Edited September 6, 2010 by ScottyDo

[TheBigHurt]

I've brought this up in two threads, but I think it applies here:

 

Go back and look at March's posts. Many of us thought we would make the playoffs, but those people exclusively thought it would be because of lights-out, insane pitching and no offense. Almost everybody who posts regularly had us under 700 runs. We're outperforming that, for sure, so whose fault is it that we were so wrong? Did KW get us a more talented team than we thought, or does Ozzie, by and large, get the best out of his players?

 

My personal opinion is that KW deserves most of that credit, but I also think Ozzie is pretty damn good at maximizing talent. Even if his in-game decisions are not great, or even good sometimes, he's damn good at the rest of the job. Which is more important? I don't know. But calling him clueless is clueless in itself. He's good at one thing and bad at another.

 

As far as today's issue goes, I vehemently disagree with most people here. Yes, it was a bad idea to leave Buehrle in. It was noted before the game even started that Martinez kills Buehrle. Farmer and DJ noted at the time that it was about time to take MB out. But by and large, Ozzie leaves his starters in for the correct amount of time and manages his bullpen to win games. Every manager will have a good amount of games where he leaves the starter in a batter too long...EVERYBODY. If Ozzie had a high rate of making that particular mistake, I'd agree with everyone, but I really have not noticed that to be the case. At this point, it's just anger at Ozzie because the angst level runs high around here.

 

I dunno, I actually don't love Ozzie, but the gathering mobs are getting ridiculous. Bigger picture, Ozzie has had a fine season. It's just a lot easier to point at Kotsay and say "BAD!" than it is to point at the overall performance of the team in wins and losses/runs scored and say "GOOD!", so people are completely ignoring it.

 

And what Melissa says has always rung true to me: if we fired Ozzie and ended up with someone like Eric Wedge, I'd be beyond pissed. It's not a reason to keep him around forever, but I'd much rather keep him -- until he loses the team completely or we know we have a better option -- than make a knee-jerk move. Let's not forget, we haven't had a manager of even Ozzie's moderate caliber since LaRussa, and we fired him prematurely.

 

I'm not for SURE, but I think, looking back, this could be Ozzie's WORST season managing. I just can't find it in myself to commend a guy who can't make the EASIEST decisions constantly and give him credit for much of the Sox's success. I CAN commend him on individual moves (which I sometimes do), but when it comes down to it, IMO a manager just has to sit back, let his players play and just take care of the simple strategic moves, and that's something that Ozzie consistently fails at, so I just can't see how he really deserves a good amount of credit overall.

 

I mean, we've all seen some of the asinine things he's done (especially this year) where we are literally throwing our arms up in the air (I think fathom and I suffer from this the most, lol) and think to ourselves that anyone with a lick of baseball knowledge at ALL could have done that right, and I'm not talking about instinctive things (I actually let Ozzie off the hook more than some of you might think with this), but s*** like pitching to Morneau with a 1 run deficit with 2 outs and first base open? Not pulling Gavin when his count is 120+ and hanging every pitch? And these aren't even comparable to some of the dumb decisions he's made. This is one season where I actually feel if it wasn't for a good amount of bad decisions he's made this year, our year could be much different and for all we know we could be in 1st place. If you ran the mentality where you assume we deliver in the situations he screwed up (which realistically I do know you can't), we'd EASILY be in 1st place.

 

 

Point is... Ozzie just sucks.

[elgonzo4sox]

If the Sox beat out the Twins, Ozzie deserves AL Manager of the Year for the simple (yet incredibly important) reason that he held this team together in May when almost everyone in the media, fandom and perhaps even front office had written them off.

 

As for today's game:

 

--Some people ripped Ozzie for sitting Manny and playing Kotsay. But after the game we learned Paulie had a bad back, so Ozzie was right to have Kotsay play first. The choice Ozzie had to make was Paulie vs. Manny for DH, not Kotsay vs. Manny. And Ozzie did use Manny beautifully well in the 8th with one out. He scared Francona, who panicked and went to his closer Papelbon for a *five out save*. Eventually, Papelbon tired and gave up the game. Give Ozzie a little credit for that.

 

--I was nervous too when Ozzie left in Burls to face VMart, but our bullpen was not at full strength after yesterday's DH sweep. If you want to see what can happen when you switch pitchers too often, look back at Thursday night's Twins/Tigers game, in which the much esteemed Gardenhire blew through his entire bullpen and three starters, and then had no one to start the next night except an emergency AAA call-up. Now that's a prime example of mishandling pitchers.

[Marty34]

How can Ozzie be doing a bad job when they're playing .559 ball in a season where Freddy Garcia has 4 more wins than Ace, Jake Peavy. Come on folks.

[greg775]

Ozzie haters can continue living in their Internet dream world of non reality.

Do you think the average White Sox fan wants this guy fired?

We just swept the f***ing Boston Red Sox and are 16 games over .500 with this mediocre team.

The comeback in the ninth inning meant nothing to you? The original poster said he can't fire up the team? What do you call rallying to beat Boston on the road?

 

The strange thing is you guys don't even admit that you would and will someday be crucifying our next manager. You'd be crucifying any manager after any White Sox loss because there are tons of things to second guess in any loss.

 

Ozzie Guillen is a great manager and I'm glad he didn't give up on this team in May as Piniella did the Cubs.

We're not going to win the division most likely -- Minnie is that good -- but Ozzie has had a good season again at the helm.

[BigSqwert]

As for today's game:

 

--Some people ripped Ozzie for sitting Manny and playing Kotsay. But after the game we learned Paulie had a bad back, so Ozzie was right to have Kotsay play first. The choice Ozzie had to make was Paulie vs. Manny for DH, not Kotsay vs. Manny. And Ozzie did use Manny beautifully well in the 8th with one out. He scared Francona, who panicked and went to his closer Papelbon for a *five out save*. Eventually, Papelbon tired and gave up the game. Give Ozzie a little credit for that.

How can you give credit to him for playing an injured Paulie?

[BigSqwert]

Ozzie haters can continue living in their Internet dream world of non reality.

Do you think the average White Sox fan wants this guy fired?

We just swept the f***ing Boston Red Sox and are 16 games over .500 with this mediocre team.

The comeback in the ninth inning meant nothing to you? The original poster said he can't fire up the team? What do you call rallying to beat Boston on the road?

 

The strange thing is you guys don't even admit that you would and will someday be crucifying our next manager. You'd be crucifying any manager after any White Sox loss because there are tons of things to second guess in any loss.

 

Ozzie Guillen is a great manager and I'm glad he didn't give up on this team in May as Piniella did the Cubs.

We're not going to win the division most likely -- Minnie is that good -- but Ozzie has had a good season again at the helm.

It's called winning in spite of terrible managing decisions.

[greg775]

I hope Ozzie's manager for another 10 years...no matter how bats*** crazy he drives everybody.

 

I also hope he's Sox manager for another 10 years. As far as your second point, he doesn't drive me crazy, not at all.

 

[TheBigHurt]

Ozzie haters can continue living in their Internet dream world of non reality.

Do you think the average White Sox fan wants this guy fired?

We just swept the f***ing Boston Red Sox and are 16 games over .500 with this mediocre team.

The comeback in the ninth inning meant nothing to you? The original poster said he can't fire up the team? What do you call rallying to beat Boston on the road?

 

The strange thing is you guys don't even admit that you would and will someday be crucifying our next manager. You'd be crucifying any manager after any White Sox loss because there are tons of things to second guess in any loss.

 

Ozzie Guillen is a great manager and I'm glad he didn't give up on this team in May as Piniella did the Cubs.

We're not going to win the division most likely -- Minnie is that good -- but Ozzie has had a good season again at the helm.

 

 

Yeah, because we were lucky enough to play like absolute s*** and beat a team that did the same, Ozzie is a great manager for no actual reason and guys like me are stupid for wanting the guy fired when he clearly has no idea what he's doing? Yeah, that's "reality," huh?

 

"Average" fans? You mean the kind that don't understand anything about baseball? Are you TRYING to make yourself look bad?

 

With people like you, nothing that every goes wrong is Ozzie's fault, but everything that goes right is attributed to him even if he has nothing to do with it. Also, we're 16 games over barely in contention in an abysmal division.

 

Hey, I love the fact we came back in the 9th, but the truth is we are HORRID with RISP and our manager is clueless in his in-game managing, it's just that simple. "Non-reality?" Giving the manager credit for everything but refusing to admit his incompetence on the most obvious of f***-ups? THAT'S "non-reality."

 

 

To quote a specific film, "Nothing you just said comes close to forming a rational thought. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

 

 

My God, greg... what can I even say about you? Almost ALL your posts are sig worthy.

Edited September 6, 2010 by TheBigHurt

[BigSqwert]

Leave him alone. He's perfectly content to see Ozzie treat our team as if we're the '85 Cardinals. Sure we'll keep making tons of outs using Ozzieball and prevent ourselves from having huge offensive innings while putting more pressure on our pitching but whatever.

Edited September 6, 2010 by BigSqwert

[Marty34]

Yeah, because we were lucky enough to play like absolute s*** and beat a team that did the same, Ozzie is a great manager for no actual reason and guys like me are stupid for wanting the guy fired when he clearly has no idea what he's doing? Yeah, that's "reality," huh?

 

"Average" fans? You mean the kind that don't understand anything about baseball? Are you TRYING to make yourself look bad?

 

With people like you, nothing that every goes wrong is Ozzie's fault, but everything that goes right is attributed to him even if he has nothing to do with it. Also, we're 16 games over barely in contention in an abysmal division.

 

Hey, I love the fact we came back in the 9th, but the truth is we are HORRID with RISP and our manager is clueless in his in-game managing, it's just that simple. "Non-reality?" Giving the manager credit for everything but refusing to admit his incompetence on the most obvious of f***-ups? THAT'S "non-reality."

 

 

To quote a specific film, "Nothing you just said comes close to forming a rational thought. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

 

 

My God, greg... what can I even say about you? Almost ALL your posts are sig worthy.

 

You have an irrational hatred for Ozzie . . .

[elgonzo4sox]

How can you give credit to him for playing an injured Paulie?

 

Ozzie didn't play Paulie at first base - I assume he and Paulie both thought Paulie could DH but needed some rest from playing the field. It's effectively a "half day off".

 

And by the way, shouldn't we give Ozzie some credit for Paulie's awesome age-defying season? I know many will hate to hear this, but the rest Paulie has gotten by DHing (which keeps his bat in the line-up) is the primary benefit of the much maligned "rotating DH" strategy. If we had a permanent DH, whether Thome or Manny or anyone else, then Paulie either plays more at first (risking injury or tiredness) or he sits his hot bat down.

[TheBigHurt]

Leave him alone. He's perfectly content to see Ozzie treat our team as if we're the '85 Cardinals. Sure we'll keep making tons of outs using Ozzieball and prevent ourselves from having huge offensive innings while putting more pressure on our pitching but whatever.

 

I mean, I CAN give Ozzie some credit. It's very difficult to manage a team at these times where your bullpen is used up and your starter is too deep to be pitching... what can you do? It's not Ozzie's fault that we suck with RISP. It just seems that in the most SIMPLE of scenarios where Ozzie is at his leisure to make SIMPLE decisions... he f***s most of them up and quite often ends up in a grueling struggle to get a win or even a blown game we should have won. I see some of the flat out IDIOTIC decisions he makes and just has to assume he NEVER looks at a scouting report unless it has something to do with his manchild crush for that year (Erstad, Wise, Kotsay, etc.).

 

[TheBigHurt]

I know many will hate to hear this, but the rest Paulie has gotten by DHing (which keeps his bat in the line-up) is the primary benefit of the much maligned "rotating DH" strategy.

 

Um... no one here complains when PAULIE is the DH; I know I sure as hell don't. It's when it's Kotsay, Jones or someone similar. What are you talking about? Am I missing something here?

[TheBigHurt]

You have an irrational hatred for Ozzie . . .

 

Everything I have said is PERFECTLY rational. Nothing is more rational than facts. Greg is flat out saying Ozzie deserves credit no matter how we win and is NEVER at fault if we lose... and I'M being irrational? Calling me irrational in the presence of greg is like calling Brad Pitt a dork in the presence of Steve Urkel.

[greg775]

Yeah, because we were lucky enough to play like absolute s*** and beat a team that did the same, Ozzie is a great manager for no actual reason and guys like me are stupid for wanting the guy fired when he clearly has no idea what he's doing? Yeah, that's "reality," huh?

 

"Average" fans? You mean the kind that don't understand anything about baseball? Are you TRYING to make yourself look bad?

 

With people like you, nothing that every goes wrong is Ozzie's fault, but everything that goes right is attributed to him even if he has nothing to do with it. Also, we're 16 games over barely in contention in an abysmal division.

 

Hey, I love the fact we came back in the 9th, but the truth is we are HORRID with RISP and our manager is clueless in his in-game managing, it's just that simple. "Non-reality?" Giving the manager credit for everything but refusing to admit his incompetence on the most obvious of f***-ups? THAT'S "non-reality."

 

 

To quote a specific film, "Nothing you just said comes close to forming a rational thought. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

My God, greg... what can I even say about you? Almost ALL your posts are sig worthy.

 

 

You said in an earlier thread: "That means you are saying if Ozzie was being an unfit manager (which he is), they would fire him."

How the f*** can you say for certain he is an "unfit manager." That's your opinion, fine.

He has a WS title under his belt and other playoff appearances for one.

For two, we are 16 over .500 with a mediocre team. Sir, I can guarantee you (even if you will disagree with me) that any manager we have you would be FURIOUS over decisions in losses by our manager. I guess we agree to disagree, but in any loss there are numerous decisions to second guess. I guess you think only Ozzie is guilty.

I look at the big picture. He produces uh, wins.

 

I kind of take offense to your last line. I am tempted to go off and start cussing but I will just calmly say that just because we disagree doesn't make me a buffoon and you a god. I would venture to say a majority of White Sox fans are satisfied with Guillen as manager. Ones that aren't probably don't like the s*** he's said in the press that have embarrassed the organization in the past.

There I said something critical of Ozzie despite the fact you said I would never do that.

I would suggest you chill on the personal attacks. I am not worthy of that last sentence you tagged on me, sir.

Edited September 6, 2010 by greg775