How can anyone...

[TheBigHurt]

You said in an earlier thread: "That means you are saying if Ozzie was being an unfit manager (which he is), they would fire him."

How the f*** can you say for certain he is an "unfit manager." That's your opinion, fine.

He has a WS title under his belt and other playoff appearances for one.

For two, we are 16 over .500 with a mediocre team. Sir, I can guarantee you (even if you will disagree with me) that any manager we have you would be FURIOUS over decisions in losses by our manager. I guess we agree to disagree, but in any loss there are numerous decisions to second guess. I guess you think only Ozzie is guilty.

I look at the big picture. He produces uh, wins.

 

I kind of take offense to your last line. I am tempted to go off and start cussing but I will just calmly say that just because we disagree doesn't make me a buffoon and you a god. I would venture to say a majority of White Sox fans are satisfied with Guillen as manager. Ones that aren't probably don't like the s*** he's said in the press that have embarrassed the organization in the past.

There I said something critical of Ozzie despite the fact you said I would never do that.

I would suggest you chill on the personal attacks. I am not worthy of that last sentence you tagged on me, sir.

 

How can I say he is an unfit manager??? Are you FOR REAL????? Feel free to actually watch a baseball game one of these days, bro. Do I really need to lay down every single example of idiotic managing that defies COMMON SENSE Ozzie makes on a regular basis to you???

 

Just because the team wins doesn't mean Ozzie made the right moves. That's 100% irrational. Look at this series. And this one was pretty lukewarm in comparison to many others.

 

Disagreeing is one thing. Lacking any semblance of common sense is quite the other. For you to say Ozzie should be given credit for any win regardless of how he managed or how the Sox played... need I say more? Sorry, sir... but you just are very uneducated.

 

Can I say that?

 

 

 

I'm simply not answering any more of your post because the answers are in front of your face. I'm seriously going to get permanently banned if I have to continue this asinine discussion with you.

Edited September 6, 2010 by TheBigHurt

[elgonzo4sox]

Um... no one here complains when PAULIE is the DH; I know I sure as hell don't. It's when it's Kotsay, Jones or someone similar. What are you talking about? Am I missing something here?

 

Paulie shouldn't DH all the time, since he is still very good in the field at first. He just can't play 162 games at first any more, as he proved again today and likely tomorrow, when a hopefully minor injury is preventing him from taking the field. So having him DH on occasion keeps his bat in the line-up. But in order for the rotating DH strategy to be implemented, you can't have a full-time "DH only" guy on the roster - you needs players like Kotsay and Jones who can also play good defense in the field.

 

So how are the Twins doing it, with Thome as a part-time "DH only" guy? They lose a fielder from their active roster, but as we all know they have a seemingly endless supply of AAA call-ups who come up to the big league club to spell their major league fielders when they go down for a while due to injury or tiredness. I don't think the Sox have the same supply of talent at the AAA level.

 

 

[Wanne]

How can I say he is an unfit manager??? Are you FOR REAL????? Feel free to actually watch a baseball game one of these days, bro. Do I really need to lay down every single example of idiotic managing that defies COMMON SENSE Ozzie makes on a regular basis to you???

 

Just because the team wins doesn't mean Ozzie made the right moves. That's 100% irrational. Look at this series. And this one was pretty lukewarm in comparison to many others.

 

Disagreeing is one thing. Lacking any semblance of common sense is quite the other. For you to say Ozzie should be given credit for any win regardless of how he managed or how the Sox played... need I say more? Sorry, sir... but you just are very uneducated.

 

Can I say that?

 

 

 

I'm simply not answering any more of your post because the answers are in front of your face. I'm seriously going to get permanently banned if I have to continue this asinine discussion with you.

 

Haters will be haters...plain and simple. You sir are simply a hater that wants to find any reason fathomable (no pun intended) to hate Ozzie. You go right ahead. But from Anger Management 101...you can't change how or what people think...yet you want to argue until people agree with you. I'm sure lot's of haters will...but you're not going to change the minds of the people who actually believe in Ozzie as the manager of this team. Deal with it.

[greg775]

Are you FOR REAL????? Feel free to actually watch a baseball game one of these days, bro.

 

Please.

I watch as many games as possible. I watch the games. Believe me, I am not the only person in America who thinks Guillen is a good manager. Granted not many on this board share my opinion, but there are Guillen supporters in the great city of Chicago.

 

Please don't call me uneducated. That is very offensive. I have an advanced degree as well as my college bachelor's degree. I also am educated in life in supporting my own way through college and postgraduate school. Please. ....

Edited September 6, 2010 by greg775

[TheBigHurt]

Haters will be haters...plain and simple. You sir are simply a hater that wants to find any reason fathomable (no pun intended) to hate Ozzie. You go right ahead. But from Anger Management 101...you can't change how or what people think...yet you want to argue until people agree with you. I'm sure lot's of haters will...but you're not going to change the minds of the people who actually believe in Ozzie as the manager of this team. Deal with it.

 

True. But I'm not gonna agree with someone that's uneducated about something. What is "a hater?" Do I hate Ozzie? Maybe, but if I do it's for perfectly logical reasons. And you're wrong about finding any reason. My last post is a perfect example. I give credit where credit is due, but I'm not gonna give him more credit than he deserves (as greg does), and I'm not gonna say he knows what he;s doing as an in-game manager because he just DOESN'T, plain and simple. And again, a vast majority seem to agree with me. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see some of the more easy decisions he has that he f***s up.

[TheBigHurt]

Please.

I watch as many games as possible. I watch the games. Believe me, I am not the only person in America who thinks Guillen is a good manager. Granted not many on this board share my opinion, but there are Guillen supporters in the great city of Chicago.

 

Please don't call me uneducated. That is very offensive. I have an advanced degree as well as my college bachelor's degree. I also am educated in life in supporting my own way through college and postgraduate school. Please. ....

 

 

Sorry I'm calling you that. But when you literally say that if we win it was automatically a well-managed game... you simply don't have any earthy idea what you are talking about. There's a screw loose SOMEWHERE...

[Wanne]

True. But I'm not gonna agree with someone that's uneducated about something. What is "a hater?" Do I hate Ozzie? Maybe, but if I do it's for perfectly logical reasons. And you're wrong about finding any reason. My last post is a perfect example. I give credit where credit is due, but I'm not gonna give him more credit than he deserves (as greg does), and I'm not gonna say he knows what he;s doing as an in-game manager because he just DOESN'T, plain and simple. And again, a vast majority seem to agree with me. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see some of the more easy decisions he has that he f***s up.

 

Good luck finding that "Perfect" manager out there who never makes any bad decisions...

 

Hell...I've seen Bobby Cox make plenty of, what I deemed, "dumb-ass" decisions this year...

Edited September 6, 2010 by Wanne

[TheBigHurt]

Paulie shouldn't DH all the time, since he is still very good in the field at first. He just can't play 162 games at first any more, as he proved again today and likely tomorrow, when a hopefully minor injury is preventing him from taking the field. So having him DH on occasion keeps his bat in the line-up. But in order for the rotating DH strategy to be implemented, you can't have a full-time "DH only" guy on the roster - you needs players like Kotsay and Jones who can also play good defense in the field.

 

So how are the Twins doing it, with Thome as a part-time "DH only" guy? They lose a fielder from their active roster, but as we all know they have a seemingly endless supply of AAA call-ups who come up to the big league club to spell their major league fielders when they go down for a while due to injury or tiredness. I don't think the Sox have the same supply of talent at the AAA level.

 

Well, again, I don't think anyone here has a hard time with that. I understand that perfectly well. You made it sound as if a lot of people would disagree with that point and I can't see how. I just don't see what Paulie occasionally DHing has to do with the "rotating DH" consisting of a lot of bad hitters.

[TheBigHurt]

Good luck finding that "Perfect" manager out there who never makes any bad decisions...

 

Who said ANYTHING about a perfect manager or about another manager at all for that matter? I'm not talking about anyone else, just about Ozzie. Saying "good luck finding a perfect" manager isn't a counterpoint and ultimately has nothing to do with anything.

 

Now, if you wanna discuss who would be a better manager I'd be all for it, and that's a good question, but in my mind there's GOTTA be SOMEONE who will at least be intelligent enough to pay attention more to the numbers and not fall asleep when a pitcher is screaming to be taken out of the game, doesn't there? Name ONE and more than likely we're looking at a better option; at least I hope so.

[greg775]

Sorry I'm calling you that. But when you literally say that if we win it was automatically a well-managed game... you simply don't have any earthy idea what you are talking about. There's a screw loose SOMEWHERE...

 

Take a valium. Drink a beer (not both together).

Calm down, please.

I accept your apology, then you come right back and say I don't know what I'm talking about and have a screw loose. In my responses to you, I have explained what I'm talking about. Dude, guys can disagree. You are not 100 percent right about this issue IMO even though you may think you are.

Ozzie has a pretty darn good track record whether you believe it or not.

He says some stupid s*** sometimes. He made a big mistake not re-signing Thome. Kotsay sucks and he's in love with him.

Some might consider those fire-able offenses. Maybe they are fireable offenses. But I don't think his in-game decisions are nearly as bad as you do.

 

[TheBigHurt]

Take a valium. Drink a beer (not both together).

Calm down, please.

I accept your apology, then you come right back and say I don't know what I'm talking about and have a screw loose. In my responses to you, I have explained what I'm talking about. Dude, guys can disagree. You are not 100 percent right about this issue IMO even though you may think you are.

Ozzie has a pretty darn good track record whether you believe it or not.

He says some stupid s*** sometimes. He made a big mistake not re-signing Thome. Kotsay sucks and he's in love with him.

Some might consider those fire-able offenses. Maybe they are fireable offenses. But I don't think his in-game decisions are nearly as bad as you do.

 

That's the funny part. You are expecting everyone to agree with you fully and if someone explains to you WHY you are simply incorrect, you take offense. Sorry, but you saying a win is automatically a well-managed game is simply 100% incorrect. Is that tame enough for you?

[Melissa1334]

Yikes...

yea,i think he sucks lol but i threw his name in there because people talk how hes so good because of the amount of wins he has

[greg775]

That's the funny part. You are expecting everyone to agree with you fully and if someone explains to you WHY you are simply incorrect, you take offense. Sorry, but you saying a win is automatically a well-managed game is simply 100% incorrect. Is that tame enough for you?

 

I only take offense when somebody calls me a name like "uneducated" etc. That's not good.

 

I don't expect everyone to agree with me fully. I totally respect those who get insanely mad when we bunt and give up an out. While I probably would rather not bunt NL style in the second inning on most occasions, I can understand Oz giving up an out in situations late in tie games, and some people have been mad at those bunts as well as those bunts early in games.

I'm saying a win on the road is pretty f***ing impressive at Boston. I look at the big picture more than you do I guess.

Winning 3 at Boston on a weekend the Twins won 3 vs. Texas in the big scheme of things was damn impressive and the manager is the one ultimately in charge. So kudos to Ozzie.

Do you realize if Boston swept us, it woulda been OVA? We are on the precipice. If they sweep KC and we lose 3 to Detroit, it's also OVA.

 

[Wanne]

That's the funny part. You are expecting everyone to agree with you fully and if someone explains to you WHY you are simply incorrect, you take offense. Sorry, but you saying a win is automatically a well-managed game is simply 100% incorrect. Is that tame enough for you?

 

What's that old saying about opinions are like what?!?...everybody got one?!? Nobody said it was a well managed game...you're just saying in general he's ignorant and basically a terrible manager. Hey...I'm not knocking your OPINION...but don't expect everybody to be on board with exactly how you think. Ain't gonna happen. Like we've stated before...Ozzie does some dumb s*** sometimes...but I still trust that he knows best and has the pulse of this team. What choice do you have (besides complain after a sweep of Boston)?

[fathom]

Hurt, I say this respectfully, but not everyone is going to agree with everything you say and believe. I've been around here long enough to know there's people who think the polar opposites when it comes to Ozzie, KW, the players, etc. Don't take it personally when they have a different viewpoint.

[VAfan]

I assume there is a A LOT more to managing than deciding when to pull a pitcher, or how to write a lineup card.

 

Ozzie's decisions drive me a bit crazy too, but I give him a heck of a lot of credit for some of the other things he does. He takes the heat off his playera. He takes no guff. He bleeds for the White Sox. For the most part, his guys play hard for him. And he generally manages his pitchers well.

 

I've seen a Sox fan since 1970. The only Sox manager I would rate ahead of Guillen since then would be Tony LaRussa, and he didn't bring us a World Series title. For Chicago baseball fans, there is only one manager that has led a Chicago team to the World Series since 1917, and it is Ozzie Guillen. I'd say that earns him more than the benefit of the doubt.

 

You could have a ton of guys playing things more by the book, but there is no guarantee they could lead a locker room full of men to win a World Championship.

 

You guys just sound like whiny babies railing against Ozzie all the time.

[TheBigHurt]

I only take offense when somebody calls me a name like "uneducated" etc. That's not good.

 

I don't expect everyone to agree with me fully. I totally respect those who get insanely mad when we bunt and give up an out. While I probably would rather not bunt NL style in the second inning on most occasions, I can understand Oz giving up an out in situations late in tie games, and some people have been mad at those bunts as well as those bunts early in games.

I'm saying a win on the road is pretty f***ing impressive at Boston. I look at the big picture more than you do I guess.

Winning 3 at Boston on a weekend the Twins won 3 vs. Texas in the big scheme of things was damn impressive and the manager is the one ultimately in charge. So kudos to Ozzie.

Do you realize if Boston swept us, it woulda been OVA? We are on the precipice. If they sweep KC and we lose 3 to Detroit, it's also OVA.

 

Well again, I'll just say it nicely and say that you are just wrong. Each win doesn't individually mean Ozzie managed well. That just isn't logical. And I'm not saying I don't look at the big picture, but the point was whether or not Ozzie knows what the hell he's doing, and you weren't being logical in the argument, whether or not it is important (although it IS).

 

 

What's that old saying about opinions are like what?!?...everybody got one?!? Nobody said it was a well managed game...you're just saying in general he's ignorant and basically a terrible manager. Hey...I'm not knocking your OPINION...but don't expect everybody to be on board with exactly how you think. Ain't gonna happen. Like we've stated before...Ozzie does some dumb s*** sometimes...but I still trust that he knows best and has the pulse of this team. What choice do you have (besides complain after a sweep of Boston)?

 

Not saying I have a choice. And I don't expect everyone to agree with me, as I myself admit I am wrong sometimes (as I was earlier about the point about Manny and Konerko). But I do believe some of things I have said are facts, and I don't know how anyone can think Ozzie is a good in-game manager when he has PROVEN his incompetence in the most basic and fundamental managerial responsibilities.

[greg775]

So after all these posts ....

 

- You think Ozzie is a bad manager.

- I think Ozzie is a great manager.

They are opinions that will likely never change.

[bmags]

Paulie shouldn't DH all the time, since he is still very good in the field at first. He just can't play 162 games at first any more, as he proved again today and likely tomorrow, when a hopefully minor injury is preventing him from taking the field. So having him DH on occasion keeps his bat in the line-up. But in order for the rotating DH strategy to be implemented, you can't have a full-time "DH only" guy on the roster - you needs players like Kotsay and Jones who can also play good defense in the field.

 

So how are the Twins doing it, with Thome as a part-time "DH only" guy? They lose a fielder from their active roster, but as we all know they have a seemingly endless supply of AAA call-ups who come up to the big league club to spell their major league fielders when they go down for a while due to injury or tiredness. I don't think the Sox have the same supply of talent at the AAA level.

 

Thome wouldn't have played 162 games as DH so Paulie easily could have gotten those days of rest even with thome on the roster and we wouldn't have had to have the kotsay experiment.

[TheBigHurt]

So after all these posts ....

 

- You think Ozzie is a bad manager.

- I think Ozzie is a great manager.

They are opinions that will likely never change.

 

So after all these posts ....

 

You still won't address the point I'm making.

[scenario]

I'm getting really close to closing this thread.

[Queen Prawn]

So after all these posts ....

 

You still won't address the point I'm making.

 

At this point it's probably best to agree to disagree and let it go. It's less painful that way.

[kjshoe04]

I'm getting really close to closing this thread.

I will be avoiding it. I don't want to watch two irrational people go at it when were on a 6 game winning streak. Don't Stop Believin!

[iamshack]

I think Ozzie has done a very solid job lately, especially navigating the minefield that has been our bullpen over the course of the last few weeks. I would have done a few things differently, namely, pitching Danks in the nightcap of the doubleheader against KC a few weeks back, but other than that, I like how he has handled things.

 

Have to be pretty impressed by how he has handled the Manny circus as well.

 

We're now 6-0 on this roadtrip, despite a fairly decimated bullpen still and having to play another twin bill over the weekend against one of the better teams in the League.

 

He's not perfect, but I haven't seen anyone yet who is...

[caulfield12]

One thing that should be stated is that we were first (I think we're now second in the AL) with RISP at around .280 or .281.

 

Second, our team batting average has also gone up from the .230's/low .240's to .271.

 

In the end, there's no such thing as black and white with any manager. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing how many titles Guillen could have managed the Twins to from 2002-2009, just as there's no sure way to know if Gardenhire could have managed the 2005 to the playoffs and World Series. (The Phil Jackson question, could he get a .500 team in terms of overall talent to the NBA Finals?)

 

The grass is always greener on the other side, the back-up QB is the most popular player on the team (well, most teams), it's human nature to think someone else could do a better job and to point out how things could have been done differently. We all know how Ozzie feels about his critics, he's been plain enough in his language. Same thing with KW, for that matter.

 

I think throughout his time managing, one of Ozzie's greatest strengths has been having faith and confidence in the starters to leave them in games and not have the early hook like Manuel. In particular, Jon Garland was used as an example of a pitcher who really grew up with Ozzie in his corner, and it's interesting how the pitcher everyone complained was too lackadaisical or laid-back or California surfer cool has been one of the most outspoken leaders trying to pull the Padres out of their free fall.

 

Ozzie is probably somewhere between 18-24 in terms in-game managing and strategy, but he's definitely in the Top 6-8 in terms of his management of the clubhouse, different personalities (yes, Swisher and Cabrera will come up here), how to keep every player on the roster involved during the season (well, until Nix this year, haha) so they're fresh down the stretch, he cares as much as any fan even though he says some stupid things, etc.

 

Unless you're getting Tom Kelly to come out of retirement or willing to spend millions on LaRussa or Torre or Girardi, there's no easy answer.

 

We've heard names like Dave Martinez (because of the theory that Joe Maddon is one of, if not THE best, top 3-5 managers in the game) bandied about, I suggested Omar Vizquel...but, you never really know how someone will do when they have their own team. It's like a good student teacher versus having your own classroom, totally different to be the "players' friend" and coach versus the manager who has to be more respected and sometimes even feared.

 

I'll give another example....Coach K has had how many assistants get head coaching jobs? How many of them have succeeded? It's not so simple as to watch and read and study the best in any field and replicate it. If that were the case, any youngster could pick up George Brett, Charlie Lau or Ted Williams hitting books and show similar results. Just like every manager or business administrator could read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and instantly have success.

Edited September 6, 2010 by caulfield12