If anyone here still likes Teahen...

[Balta1701]

Morel wasn't exactly "waiting in the wings" when the extension was signed.

Viciedo might have been though, and that was an awful lot of money to commit to a guy with the career history of Teahen. Even if you didn't expect Morel to be ready for 2-3 years...that was a lot of money to commit to a guy like Teahen. It might have made sense if you thought he was a "Walk will fix him!" kind of guy who had an obvious and correctable swing flaw or something like that.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Viciedo might have been though, and that was an awful lot of money to commit to a guy with the career history of Teahen. Even if you didn't expect Morel to be ready for 2-3 years...that was a lot of money to commit to a guy like Teahen.

 

It's hard to use Viciedo for that argument though. There were many people on this board very disappointed or upset at the season DV had last year. I don't remember what side of that fence you were on, but there weren't too many people penciling DV into the 3B role in 2011 8 months ago.

[Balta1701]

It's hard to use Viciedo for that argument though. There were many people on this board very disappointed or upset at the season DV had last year. I don't remember what side of that fence you were on, but there weren't too many people penciling DV into the 3B role in 2011 8 months ago.

And you shouldn't have been. But mid-2011 or 2012 was a possibility, as it was with Morel, and Teahen is still on the hook for $5.5 million in 2012.

 

If you thought that changing hitting coaches would make the .900 OPS from the 2nd half of 2006 reappear, then that's a defensible contract. I don't know what was talked about behind the scenes about him so I'll hold that open...but this guy we've got isnt' worth that.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

And you shouldn't have been. But mid-2011 or 2012 was a possibility, as it was with Morel, and Teahen is still on the hook for $5.5 million in 2012.

 

If you thought that changing hitting coaches would make the .900 OPS from the 2nd half of 2006 reappear, then that's a defensible contract. I don't know what was talked about behind the scenes about him so I'll hold that open...but this guy we've got isnt' worth that.

 

It wasn't the best contract but I had no problem extending him through 2011. I was fine with Viciedo's year last year but assumed he was still best case mid-2011 and Morel probably not until 2012. And factoring in what he would have gotten in arbitration (someone did this a while back) it is not that significant of a raise. I was just pointing out that blaming KW was rushing the extension because we had someone "waiting in the wings" is just flat out not true. And using Morel as that person just doesn't work. If anyone was going to be the opening day 3B in 2011 people would have said Viciedo.

[greg775]

I say work with Viciedo all winter on his defense at third and he is the starting third baseman next year.

Lillibridge proved hitting wise that you can reinvent yourself over the winter. Can't Viciedo do the same on the defensive end? Take him somewhere warm starting in midJanuary and work on his defense for a month til spring training starts.

I would think the Tank can become an adequate third baseman. He already has to be as good as Teahen defensively.

If Tank can't be adequate at third, then I guess we sink. But we already know Mark T can't be our regular third baseman if we hope to be a contender for the division title.

Edited September 10, 2010 by greg775

[hogan873]

I say work with Viciedo all winter on his defense at third and he is the starting third baseman next year.

Lillibridge proved hitting wise that you can reinvent yourself over the winter. Can't Viciedo do the same on the defensive end? Take him somewhere warm starting in midJanuary and work on his defense for a month til spring training starts.

I would think the Tank can become an adequate third baseman. He already has to be as good as Teahen defensively.

If Tank can't be adequate at third, then I guess we sink. But we already know Mark T can't be our regular third baseman if we hope to be a contender for the division title.

I agree that working with Viciedo has to be a priority. The question is whether they want to make him the 3rd baseman of the future or start grooming him for 1st base. Regardless, his bat is going to be important to the Sox for years to come...hopefully. If Konerko doesn't sign, I would expect Tank to be groomed for 1st.

[Balta1701]

I agree that working with Viciedo has to be a priority. The question is whether they want to make him the 3rd baseman of the future or start grooming him for 1st base. Regardless, his bat is going to be important to the Sox for years to come...hopefully. If Konerko doesn't sign, I would expect Tank to be groomed for 1st.

You've got to expect him to be a 1b. It'd probably be a couple years at best before he'd be anything but a liability at 3b. He has the tools there but needs a lot of coaching and experience.

[Dick Allen]

Ozzie said Teahen won't be at 3B until he gets his confidence back. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he won't be there, but how exactly is he going to get his confidence back not playing there? Games and taking a little infield are 2 very different things.

[Mr. Wedmesday]

Ozzie said Teahen won't be at 3B until he gets his confidence back. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he won't be there, but how exactly is he going to get his confidence back not playing there? Games and taking a little infield are 2 very different things.

 

 

Isn't that Ozzie's "diplomatic" way of saying he won't be at third base.....ever again?

 

And if Teahen's as much of a jinx as the numbers earlier in the thread suggest, I'm fine with eating part of his contract if Kenny can't find as big a sucker as he was for this signing + extension?

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The problem with trading him away is that you need another team who wants him at that price. There's no reason to pay 1/2 of his deal to make him go away.

Oh hell yes there is. Imagine that money in the farm system, especially considering the way we've drafted, developed, and dealt over the last 3-4 years. Or if nothing else, imagine another reliever or two in the bullpen. Or another $1M Jim Thome bargain at the end of FA. That money would go a long way, which is why opposing teams would laugh at Kenny if he wanted to *only* pay half of that deal. Truth is, Teahen was a nontender candidate when the Sox acquired him, and then the Sox agreed to commit even more money per year in future seasons than he was already making at the time. Brilliant.

[soxrwhite]

Teahan can hit but not good enough to live with his defense. A utility player has to play defense above all. There is no place for this pretty good player. He has to do something extremely well and he doesn't. He runs ok, he hits good, his defense is below average,when you add it all up,sorry, but no place for him in the lineup or on the bench.

[kitekrazy]

I concede he seems like a great guy, but I don't know how he made it to the big leagues.

His defense is pathetic.

He thinks he's a power hitter swinging that massive Soriano-sized bat.

He needs to re-do his game, the way Lilly apparently worked on his last offseason.

 

Look at the organization he came from. They aren't exactly a winning organization.

This wasn't really a trade to take advantage of a naive GM or fire sale.

 

 

[kitekrazy]

I say work with Viciedo all winter on his defense at third and he is the starting third baseman next year.

 

That would be another Josh Field experiment. If defense isn't there to begin with, how much can a guy improve in that area? Hitters go in slumps but they can still be helpful with the glove.

 

Getting a decent guy to play 3rd may be another one of those expensive experiments.

 

Don't the Sox have a guy to play 3rd in the organization named Morel?

 

[Balta1701]

That would be another Josh Field experiment. If defense isn't there to begin with, how much can a guy improve in that area? Hitters go in slumps but they can still be helpful with the glove.

Guys can improve an awful lot with the glove given experience at the position.

 

Case in point; Alexei Ramirez. Careless and disappointing at SS last year. Experience and an offseason of work...and the best fielding SS in the league this year.

[thxfrthmmrs]

I say work with Viciedo all winter on his defense at third and he is the starting third baseman next year.

Lillibridge proved hitting wise that you can reinvent yourself over the winter. Can't Viciedo do the same on the defensive end? Take him somewhere warm starting in midJanuary and work on his defense for a month til spring training starts.

I would think the Tank can become an adequate third baseman. He already has to be as good as Teahen defensively.

If Tank can't be adequate at third, then I guess we sink. But we already know Mark T can't be our regular third baseman if we hope to be a contender for the division title.

 

1) that is not saying much.

 

2) Lillibridge didn't reinvent himself, he is still a poor hitter. He got off to a hot start and that was a fluke, his post ASB OPS is .500

 

3) With hard work, some players may turn out to be pretty decent defensively. But Viceido is way too big, lacks the quickness and the range to be a sufficient third basemen. (There is a reason they call him Tank) A similar case would be Miguel Cabrera, who was terrible in the outfield and third base, and eventually switched over to first base. Viceido is the same path.

 

4) Why put Viceido at third when we have Morel who is almost MLB ready? His glove at third is great from what i've heard. He should be ready by ST next year, if not definitely by June. We can resign Omar and put him at third until Morel is ready.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Guys can improve an awful lot with the glove given experience at the position.

 

Case in point; Alexei Ramirez. Careless and disappointing at SS last year. Experience and an offseason of work...and the best fielding SS in the league this year.

Crede is another example - he was considered talented by raw, and developed as time went on. He had a better tool set to begin with probably, but still improved on that.

 

All that said, I'm leaning heavily towards perferring Morel for 2011 anyway.

 

 

[thxfrthmmrs]

Guys can improve an awful lot with the glove given experience at the position.

 

Case in point; Alexei Ramirez. Careless and disappointing at SS last year. Experience and an offseason of work...and the best fielding SS in the league this year.

 

 

Alexei is a natural SS and has all the gifts to succeed at that position. He has always shown flashes of how good he can be defensively, and he finally puts it together this year.

 

I just don't see how Viceido being 5'10 and 240 will turn out to be a sufficient third basemen defensively. From what i have seen so far in the big leagues and the minor leagues, it's highly unlikely Viceido can bring a good glove at third.

[Balta1701]

1) that is not saying much.

 

2) Lillibridge didn't reinvent himself, he is still a poor hitter. He got off to a hot start and that was a fluke, his post ASB OPS is .500

 

3) With hard work, some players may turn out to be pretty decent defensively. But Viceido is way too big, lacks the quickness and the range to be a sufficient third basemen. (There is a reason they call him Tank) A similar case would be Miguel Cabrera, who was terrible in the outfield and third base, and eventually switched over to first base. Viceido is the same path.

 

4) Why put Viceido at third when we have Morel who is almost MLB ready? His glove at third is great from what i've heard. He should be ready by ST next year, if not definitely by June. We can resign Omar and put him at third until Morel is ready.

I think I have to half-disagree with you here. No matter how big DV is, he's still fairly quick getting to the ball at 3b. He also has a major asset that you've neglected to mention...he has a rocket launcher for a right arm...so he'd be able to cover up somewhat for deficiencies with his speed.

 

That said...if both of them turn out...Morel at 3b and Viciedo at 1b/DH is a better option than Morel blocked by Viciedo and traded for peanuts.

 

Even if he took a big, big, big jump up this year...I wouldn't pencil Morel in at 3b any time next year just yet. He's got an injury to recover from and his bat still needs development time. He could easily be ready by next June...or he could hit a slump and need some time to work through it. He raced upwards this year with doubles power; with time, some of that might turn into HR power. I'd hate to see us rush him when he clearly is a guy who could benefit from more time in Charlotte.

 

I think Omar will be back next year unless he decides to retire. I'm not sure how else to structure things though...there's a whole lot of other decisions to make first.

[thxfrthmmrs]

I think I have to half-disagree with you here. No matter how big DV is, he's still fairly quick getting to the ball at 3b. He also has a major asset that you've neglected to mention...he has a rocket launcher for a right arm...so he'd be able to cover up somewhat for deficiencies with his speed.

 

That said...if both of them turn out...Morel at 3b and Viciedo at 1b/DH is a better option than Morel blocked by Viciedo and traded for peanuts.

 

Even if he took a big, big, big jump up this year...I wouldn't pencil Morel in at 3b any time next year just yet. He's got an injury to recover from and his bat still needs development time. He could easily be ready by next June...or he could hit a slump and need some time to work through it. He raced upwards this year with doubles power; with time, some of that might turn into HR power. I'd hate to see us rush him when he clearly is a guy who could benefit from more time in Charlotte.

 

I think Omar will be back next year unless he decides to retire. I'm not sure how else to structure things though...there's a whole lot of other decisions to make first.

 

He does have a great arm, but it's still highly unlikely he will turn out to be good at third defensively.

 

and I don't know what's the organization's plan for him, if they were to have faith in him, they wouldn't have put him at 1st base this year. I am assuming he will eventually be PK's successor at 1st base if he isn't traded by then, and Morel will be the long term solution at 3rd.

Edited September 13, 2010 by thxfrthmmrs

[Buehrlesque]

Truth is, Teahen was a nontender candidate when the Sox acquired him, and then the Sox agreed to commit even more money per year in future seasons than he was already making at the time. Brilliant.

Perfectly put.

 

I think KW is a great GM overall, and, yes, even great GMs make mistakes. But when you see it so clearly like this.... it's just he single dumbest, lowest-upside move he's ever made. Trading players from your team for a non-tender candidate, then signing him to an expensive extension when he was under arbitration, then handing him the starting job at 3B despite a complete lack of defense. Worst sequence of moves by KW ever. (Worse that Todd Richie, Scott Linebrink and Nick Swisher, all of which were bad but were at least somewhat defend-able at the time.)

[kitekrazy]

Alexei is a natural SS and has all the gifts to succeed at that position. He has always shown flashes of how good he can be defensively, and he finally puts it together this year.

 

I just don't see how Viceido being 5'10 and 240 will turn out to be a sufficient third basemen defensively. From what i have seen so far in the big leagues and the minor leagues, it's highly unlikely Viceido can bring a good glove at third.

 

Agreed and having a guy like Omar can make a difference. Alexei was prone to mental errors more than anything.

I believe the Sox scouting seem to lack the ability to see a bad fielder and there's never going to be enough improvement without it being exposed at the big league level. You can never have enough hitting to compensate for bad defense.

Edited September 13, 2010 by kitekrazy