Part Time Thome Kills Sox Again

[Quin]

Number wise:

 

Thome has been worth 3.3 WAR this year.

 

Subtract 3 wins from Twins and they're 82-61.

 

Add 3 to us and we're 82-61.

 

Round up to 4 wins and they're 81-62 and we're 83-60.

[chw42]

Number wise:

 

Thome has been worth 3.3 WAR this year.

 

Subtract 3 wins from Twins and they're 82-61.

 

Add 3 to us and we're 82-61.

 

Round up to 4 wins and they're 81-62 and we're 83-60.

 

I think the 4 wins prediction is more accurate, since our DHs have had negative value this year.

 

When you see s*** like this, it just makes you shake your head.

[Vance Law]

Number wise:

 

Thome has been worth 3.3 WAR this year.

 

Subtract 3 wins from Twins and they're 82-61.

 

Add 3 to us and we're 82-61.

 

Round up to 4 wins and they're 81-62 and we're 83-60.

 

And that's not even adding the fact that Kotsay has been -.7 WAR. Thome instead of Kotsay is roughly equal to 4 wins to us.

 

[Quin]

And that's not even adding the fact that Kotsay has been -.7 WAR. Thome instead of Kotsay is roughly equal to 4 wins to us.

 

And the division lead.

[greg775]

Still at the break we were in the race.

We could have added a suitable bat.

We didn't.

Thome didn't lead the Twins to any advantage at the break over us.

We were in the race.

Sox f***ed up by not adding a bat. Paulie, Oz, KW said they didn't need one.

[EvilMonkey]

We could have added a suitable bat.

We didn't.

Really? Who, and at what cost?

[NorthSideSox72]

Please explain to me how this man is ever allowed to make personnel decisions?

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,3994057.story

You'll see this offseason, I think, that Ozzie will no longer have that sort of control over building the roster.

 

[Balta1701]

You'll see this offseason, I think, that Ozzie will no longer have that sort of control over building the roster.

What gives you that impression?

[fathom]

Still at the break we were in the race.

We could have added a suitable bat.

We didn't.

Thome didn't lead the Twins to any advantage at the break over us.

We were in the race.

Sox f***ed up by not adding a bat. Paulie, Oz, KW said they didn't need one.

 

Exactly, Thome's gone out and been the catalyst for the Twins during the 2nd half and helped them cruise to the AL Central title.

[Y2HH]

Exactly, Thome's gone out and been the catalyst for the Twins during the 2nd half and helped them cruise to the AL Central title.

 

[Milkman delivers]

Geez only 41 post and this is the best you can come up with?

This has been beat to death more so by the baseball retarded.

 

YAWN

 

I'm pretty sure you manage to call someone retarded in each of your posts.

[soxfan-kwman]

At one point this year our team was in first place & Jim Thome has been in Minnesota all spring & summer. Our bad start killed us so far, not Jim Thome.

 

1. Jake Peavy started out slow, heated up, & then getting hurt didn't help us.

 

2. Losing to many games to Kansas City & Cleveland this year hurt us.

 

[Steve9347]

I think if Thome is playing 90% of the time at DH, other players like Paulie might not be having seasons as good as this one.

 

Either way, f*** it, I still love Jim, and I'll pull for him to get a ring if the Twins do indeed hold us off.

[chw42]

Still at the break we were in the race.

We could have added a suitable bat.

We didn't.

Thome didn't lead the Twins to any advantage at the break over us.

We were in the race.

Sox f***ed up by not adding a bat. Paulie, Oz, KW said they didn't need one.

 

That's cause he didn't play as much.

[chw42]

I think if Thome is playing 90% of the time at DH, other players like Paulie might not be having seasons as good as this one.

 

Either way, f*** it, I still love Jim, and I'll pull for him to get a ring if the Twins do indeed hold us off.

 

Why? If Thome hit 5th, don't you think he'd be acting as better protection for Konerko?

[kitekrazy]

I'm pretty sure you manage to call someone retarded in each of your posts.

 

I didn't say he was. Read the post.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I didn't say he was. Read the post.

What you said is not OK. Check your PM's, and cool it with the retarded references.

 

[LVSoxFan]

At one point this year our team was in first place & Jim Thome has been in Minnesota all spring & summer. Our bad start killed us so far, not Jim Thome.

 

1. Jake Peavy started out slow, heated up, & then getting hurt didn't help us.

 

2. Losing to many games to Kansas City & Cleveland this year hurt us.

 

^This. For the LOVE OF GOD, can we please stop with the "If only we had kept Jim Thome, we'd be in this!" insanity?

 

I really fail to see how a team's entire season rise or falls... on one position player.

 

It's not like we've been rolling over the Central Division this year outside the Twins, either--and that's the problem. We can sweep the Red Sox but then lose three to Detroit? WTF?

 

OK, so the addition of Manny is probably the most upfront acknowledgement that the DH-by-committee idea didn't work. That one reality is the key to our whole season?

 

[Balta1701]

So...guys...the ones who keep pointing at other things that went wrong or that hurt the Sox this year are missing the point. Yes, lots of things have hurt the White Sox this year. There is, however, a reason why we keep coming back to the Thome thing and the DH spot; unlike so very many of the other things that have hurt us, the DH spot being a problem was entirely predictable, and it was a completely self-inflicted wound.

 

By that, I mean, first and foremost, we didn't lose out on Thome because we were outbid (although you could slightly make that case regarding Damon). We didn't come into the season with Kotsay and Jones as the primary DH's out of necessity, we did so out of choice.

 

Go up and down the list of other things that went wrong for us...and Hell throw in the Twins...you won't find a single example of a self-inflicted wound anything like what we did to ourselves with that decision.

 

Some examples of things that went wrong; Jenks imploding; yeah it was predictable, but we took steps to cover it (Putz, Thornton). Peavy getting hurt; yeah, predictable that we'd lose a starter, so we went into the season 6 deep there. Teahen struggling on defense? We've got Vizquel as a backup/late game replacement. Quentin struggling on defense? Jones is a solid defensive replacement. Joe Nathan getting hurt? Hardly missed a beat. Justin Morneau going down? Didn't miss a beat.

 

Bad things are going to happen to teams. Some times you can't plan for them; the Twins wouldn't have recovered had they lost both Mauer and Morneau. The Sox got hit hard when not only Jenks struggled, but Thornton and Putz hit the DL and Santos hit the rookie wall simultaneously; you can't recover when 4 different parts of your bullpen suddenly stink.

 

The difference with the Kotsay thing is everyone paying attention could see it coming. Even if he was very good, Kotsay would still have gotten too many at bats, been a defensive liability in the OF, been week against LHP, and at best put up a .750 OPS. There really was no way that the DH spot wasn't going to be a weakness even if everything turned out right...and the team managed to, through some mental gymnastics, convince themselves not only that this wouldn't be a problem, but that this would be a major asset, and that Jim wouldn't do any damage to us if he was on the Twins!

 

Listing other things that went wrong doesn't change the fact that this error was entirely predictable in January. That's why we keep coming back to this, whether we like it or not. It was a mistake on day 1. It was never going to work.

[NorthSideSox72]

^This. For the LOVE OF GOD, can we please stop with the "If only we had kept Jim Thome, we'd be in this!" insanity?

 

I really fail to see how a team's entire season rise or falls... on one position player.

 

It's not like we've been rolling over the Central Division this year outside the Twins, either--and that's the problem. We can sweep the Red Sox but then lose three to Detroit? WTF?

 

OK, so the addition of Manny is probably the most upfront acknowledgement that the DH-by-committee idea didn't work. That one reality is the key to our whole season?

Key to the whole season? No. Biggest single reason, probably, yes.

 

There are of course other reasons. Peavy's injury, cold starts by Floyd and MB in the rotation and Alexei/Beckham/AJ in the lineup, Jenks' failures, Ozzie's bizarro managing, and probably biggest next to Thome... the fact that the Twins have been insanely good since the ASB. Those are all reasons too.

 

The White Sox still have, last I looked, the best record in baseball since 6/1. But the Twins have the best since the ASB. That means the Twins are playing better than anyone expected any ALC team to, but it also means the Sox were probably one player change away from being in the thick of it - and the lack of Thome (replaced by Jones/Kotsay) combined with his addition in Minny has been a killer.

 

True though that the topic has been beat to death by now. Hopefully, and probably, KW won't make the same mistake again and allow Ozzie to dictate a National League lineup.

 

[ktssox]

Yeah the "rotating DH" is a great idea if you know, you actually have the talent to pull it off. This is on Ozzie and only Ozzie. It's what he wanted.

 

I'm sorry, but I think you're contradicting yourself here. How can you say it's a good idea if you have the talent, but then blame Ozzie? Ozzie isn't in charge of signing the talent. If Kenny did, in fact, decide to let Ozzie try out this rotating DH, then he should have given him the best talent available (given budget restraints, of course) to make it work. Ozzie's plan cannot be evaluated properly if he doesn't have the correct pieces. In that case, you're always going to have to say, this may have worked IF... which is what we're all doing now. This is not Ozzie's fault.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm sorry, but I think you're contradicting yourself here. How can you say it's a good idea if you have the talent, but then blame Ozzie? Ozzie isn't in charge of signing the talent. If Kenny did, in fact, decide to let Ozzie try out this rotating DH, then he should have given him the best talent available (given budget restraints, of course) to make it work. Ozzie's plan cannot be evaluated properly if he doesn't have the correct pieces. In that case, you're always going to have to say, this may have worked IF... which is what we're all doing now. This is not Ozzie's fault.

Kotsay actually cost more than Thome would have. Ozzie and Kenny both knew the Sox were not going to be able to go out and spend $15M on a DH. The roster was nearly set by that point. Ozzie knew his choices - Jones/Kotsay or Thome. He chose Jones/Kotsay. This is 80% on him. I do give KW some of the blame, for even letting Ozzie make that choice.

 

[fathom]

I'm sorry, but I think you're contradicting yourself here. How can you say it's a good idea if you have the talent, but then blame Ozzie? Ozzie isn't in charge of signing the talent. If Kenny did, in fact, decide to let Ozzie try out this rotating DH, then he should have given him the best talent available (given budget restraints, of course) to make it work. Ozzie's plan cannot be evaluated properly if he doesn't have the correct pieces. In that case, you're always going to have to say, this may have worked IF... which is what we're all doing now. This is not Ozzie's fault.

 

Did you watch The Club? Ozzie did in fact get his way with the rotating DH, and he wanted Kotsay as part of it.

[Vance Law]

So...guys...the ones who keep pointing at other things that went wrong or that hurt the Sox this year are missing the point. Yes, lots of things have hurt the White Sox this year. There is, however, a reason why we keep coming back to the Thome thing and the DH spot; unlike so very many of the other things that have hurt us, the DH spot being a problem was entirely predictable, and it was a completely self-inflicted wound.

 

By that, I mean, first and foremost, we didn't lose out on Thome because we were outbid (although you could slightly make that case regarding Damon). We didn't come into the season with Kotsay and Jones as the primary DH's out of necessity, we did so out of choice.

 

Go up and down the list of other things that went wrong for us...and Hell throw in the Twins...you won't find a single example of a self-inflicted wound anything like what we did to ourselves with that decision.

 

Some examples of things that went wrong; Jenks imploding; yeah it was predictable, but we took steps to cover it (Putz, Thornton). Peavy getting hurt; yeah, predictable that we'd lose a starter, so we went into the season 6 deep there. Teahen struggling on defense? We've got Vizquel as a backup/late game replacement. Quentin struggling on defense? Jones is a solid defensive replacement. Joe Nathan getting hurt? Hardly missed a beat. Justin Morneau going down? Didn't miss a beat.

 

Bad things are going to happen to teams. Some times you can't plan for them; the Twins wouldn't have recovered had they lost both Mauer and Morneau. The Sox got hit hard when not only Jenks struggled, but Thornton and Putz hit the DL and Santos hit the rookie wall simultaneously; you can't recover when 4 different parts of your bullpen suddenly stink.

 

The difference with the Kotsay thing is everyone paying attention could see it coming. Even if he was very good, Kotsay would still have gotten too many at bats, been a defensive liability in the OF, been week against LHP, and at best put up a .750 OPS. There really was no way that the DH spot wasn't going to be a weakness even if everything turned out right...and the team managed to, through some mental gymnastics, convince themselves not only that this wouldn't be a problem, but that this would be a major asset, and that Jim wouldn't do any damage to us if he was on the Twins!

 

Listing other things that went wrong doesn't change the fact that this error was entirely predictable in January. That's why we keep coming back to this, whether we like it or not. It was a mistake on day 1. It was never going to work.

 

Exactly.

 

 

[Vance Law]

Did you watch The Club? Ozzie did in fact get his way with the rotating DH, and he wanted Kotsay as part of it.

 

In addition, there is an article from the offseason where Ozzie is quoted as saying (I'm paraphrasing now), "I never ask Kenny for specific players. The only guy I ever asked Kenny about was can we keep Mark Kotsay..."