Time To Change The Business Model

[BearingPro]

The WS had better turn back to drafting, developing and promoting.

 

This half-assed piecemeal approach is not working. It's time to bring up the young guys and build for the future. I want Morel, Flowers, Jordan Danks, Jared Mitchell and Viciedo playing full time next year.

 

 

[daggins]

Trust me, you don't want the Sox to win 60 games next year.

[SoxAce]

Trust me, you don't want the Sox to win 60 games next year.

 

It's sad to think some of us would prefer we got that route though. Twins are not going to go anywhere, and they will have a healthy Morneau back and a healthy Nathan. (remember he's having surgery on him elbow, not his shoulder) Seems to work with Minnesota because they draft and develop well. Guys like Morel though is a typical Twins-like prospect and I still like Flowers.

 

I'm more interested to see these guys (Morel, Viciedo, Flowers) play out the rest of this season like I said in the game if/when the Twins puts the finishing touches on this series not to mention a guy like Infante in the pen. Hell play Brent Lillibridge too. Just get Juan Pierre out of my sight.

[Paulie4Pres]

Trust me, you don't want the Sox to win 60 games next year.

 

Sixty games, ninety game, what does it matter if they don't make the playoffs? It doesn't.

[Soxbadger]

When were the sox good at drafting, developing and promoting?

 

Theyve had some good years and some bad years, but not exactly known for building a home grown team.

 

2005 roster

 

1B Konerko- Trade, 2B Iguchi- fa, 3B Crede- drafted, SS Uribe- Trade, C AJ- FA. RF- Pods- Trade, CF- Rowand- drafted, LF- Dye- free agent, DH Thomas- drafted

 

SP Buerhle- drafted, SP- Freddy-trade, SP- Garland- trade, SP- Contreras- trade, SP El Duke- fa

 

In the pen they had Cotts who they drafted.

 

 

I think the Sox need to add some hitting and they are fine. They have one of the best returning staffs next year. s*** happens you move on.

 

(edit put AJ as trade because I was thinking of the Liriano deal)

Edited September 15, 2010 by Soxbadger

[Real]

Sixty games, ninety game, what does it matter if they don't make the playoffs? It doesn't.

 

Ticket sales equal roster payroll. Want the Baltimore Sox in 2012?

[bigruss]

Just get Juan Pierre out of my sight.

Oh god yes.

[Paulie4Pres]

Ticket sales equal roster payroll. Want the Baltimore Sox in 2012?

 

Really don't care. If the team isn't willing to spend money out of their pocket to get better and correct their mistakes, it's not a team I want to support. The fans should NOT be paying for our organization's inability to draft well and develop players.

[bigruss]

When were the sox good at drafting, developing and promoting?

 

Theyve had some good years and some bad years, but not exactly known for building a home grown team.

 

2005 roster

 

1B Konerko- Trade, 2B Iguchi- fa, 3B Crede- drafted, SS Uribe- Trade, C AJ- FA. RF- Pods- Trade, CF- Rowand- drafted, LF- Dye- free agent, DH Thomas- drafted

 

SP Buerhle- drafted, SP- Freddy-trade, SP- Garland- trade, SP- Contreras- trade, SP El Duke- fa

 

In the pen they had Cotts who they drafted.

 

 

I think the Sox need to add some hitting and they are fine. They have one of the best returning staffs next year. s*** happens you move on.

AJ was a FA.

 

Problem iwth returning a "stellar" pitching staff is that you owe $54 million to them, along with potentially losing your best RHP in your bullpen, and your closer for the past 4 seasons. And with arbitration raises we are pretty much stuck with what we got unless we unload Teahen, Pierre, Linebrink. Unfortunately I dont really see us being able to get much salary relief in trades.

[Soxbadger]

Would you be happy with making the playoffs and losing ever year?

 

How do you value success, if winning is all that matters then shouldnt it mean nothing if you aint got no ring?

 

Sox spend to win. I will support them as long as they try to win. For most of my life they tried way less and I supported them, why am I going to go give up now?

 

 

[Paulie4Pres]

Would you be happy with making the playoffs and losing ever year?

 

How do you value success, if winning is all that matters then shouldnt it mean nothing if you aint got no ring?

 

Sox spend to win. I will support them as long as they try to win. For most of my life they tried way less and I supported them, why am I going to go give up now?

 

Not spending money on the team isn't giving up. It's investing wisely, and not throwing your money away.... If Chicago fans understood this, we might not go 50-100 years between championships. One could make an argument that the biggest reason the Cubs have sucked for years and years on end, is the fact that Wrigley is filled, win or lose. Same with the Bears and Soldier Field. Honestly, the only Chicago fans that "get it" are Blackhawks fans and Sox fans. The team sucks, and makes no efforts to get better, and you stop spending your hard earned money on them. It is common sense. Why should I pay for an inferior product? WINNING is the best marketing strategy you have as a sports franchise, so it's in your best interests to win.

[BearingPro]

Trust me, you don't want the Sox to win 60 games next year.

 

That's not a given...also young players need to develop and get better. The WS have a decent nucleus of Alexei, Beckham, Rios, Danks, Floyd, Peavy, Sale and others. I say fill in with the young kids and quit bringing in washed up vets in hopes of catching lightning in a bottle.

 

[hitlesswonder]

The WS had better turn back to drafting, developing and promoting.

 

This half-assed piecemeal approach is not working. It's time to bring up the young guys and build for the future. I want Morel, Flowers, Jordan Danks, Jared Mitchell and Viciedo playing full time next year.

 

I don't mean for this to sound harsh, but I think that's ridiculous. Mitchell will be coming off an injury and lost season having played what, a half-season of pro ball? Promoting him to the majors sounds like a good way to ruin any career he might have. Danks can't hit in AAA. Flowers can't hit in AAA. Viciedo has no plate discipline and right now doesn't project as even an average major-league player at any point in his career. Morel is the one guy on that list that might be able to be an average major league player someday. But he won't be good his first season in the majors.

 

Your approach makes the Sox the Pittsburgh Pirates, and for what return? It's not like these guys have a chance of turning into all-stars. The Sox minor league system is awful, so going with youth is simply punting away seasons to get high draft choices. Giving up on 5 or more seasons until the Sox accumulate enough top 5 picks to have decent cheap talent isn't anything I want to watch.

 

The Sox have some talent at the major league level. They need a GM who can make a few decent moves and put them in a position to challenge again next season. Giving up on competing the next several years because the Sox will finish second this season seems like an over-reaction to me.

[Paulie4Pres]

Or, since we seem to be one of the worst teams in all of baseball at drafting and developing talent, maybe we should spend some money on our scouting staff instead of guys like Manny, Griffey, etc? You know, offer some of those Minnesota scouts big money to jump ship? Improve our minor league system FFS. Who was the last legit STUD to come out of the White Sox organization?

[Soxbadger]

Not spending money on the team isn't giving up. It's investing wisely, and not throwing your money away.... If Chicago fans understood this, we might not go 50-100 years between championships. One could make an argument that the biggest reason the Cubs have sucked for years and years on end, is the fact that Wrigley is filled, win or lose. Same with the Bears and Soldier Field. Honestly, the only Chicago fans that "get it" are Blackhawks fans and Sox fans. The team sucks, and makes no efforts to get better, and you stop spending your hard earned money on them. It is common sense. Why should I pay for an inferior product? WINNING is the best marketing strategy you have as a sports franchise, so it's in your best interests to win.

 

This post left me speechless. Okay it left me with so many words I dont even know where to start.

 

If Chicago fans understood what?

 

Chicago is the only city to have a Championship in every major sport in the last 25 years. So what exactly do other cities understand more than Chicago? What does NY understand? What does LA understand?

 

You act like fans not showing to games will make the White Sox a better team. It wont. So you can say the Sox should throw everything away and not support a team who has brought in Jake Peavy, Alex Rios and Edwin Jackson in 3 seasons, or you can realize that all you can ask for is that the management puts together a competitive team and does what it can to win.

 

The comment that Blackhawk fans some how had an impact on the change of the franchise shows that you just are throwing things out there. Im not the biggest or most knowledgeable Hawks fan, but Im pretty sure that the Hawks sucked until Mr. Bill Wirtz passed away. Then when new management took over they completely changed the franchise and turned it from one of the worst rated to one of the best. Im pretty sure that had Mr. Bill Wirtz not died the Blackhawks would be in the exact same position.

 

As for Sox fans getting it. The Sox won in 2005. It wasnt ater they had some sort of fan strike where fans didnt show up. That was after 1994 when the strike happened and the Sox had one of the best young teams in the majors. Due to the Sox going from one of the top attendance teams (Sox prior to 1995 outdrew the Cubs every year that New Comiskey was opened) to one of the lower, attendance dropped from 32k to 22k, the Sox would not return to the playoffs until 2000.

 

 

So thats why I dont believe a word of that post

[Paulie4Pres]

The comment that Blackhawk fans some how had an impact on the change of the franchise shows that you just are throwing things out there. Im not the biggest or most knowledgeable Hawks fan, but Im pretty sure that the Hawks sucked until Mr. Bill Wirtz passed away. Then when new management took over they completely changed the franchise and turned it from one of the worst rated to one of the best. Im pretty sure that had Mr. Bill Wirtz not died the Blackhawks would be in the exact same position.

 

The Hawks didn't suck until Bill passed away. They actually had several successful seasons under his time as owner. They have pretty much sucked for the last ten years or so, but it wasn't for lack of spending money, much like the White Sox. The franchise started to turn around when ownership showed the fans they were serious about putting a winning product on the ice again. Not just spending money to FILL SEATS, which is what Dollar Bill did, and what JR does with the Sox, but spending money to WIN. You really think the White Sox made moves like Griffey, Peavy, Manny, etc to WIN? No, they made big splash moves like that to SELL TICKETS and MERCHANDISE. Peavy is awesome, for the 1/4 of the season he is healthy. Griffey was awesome, ten years ago. Manny was awesome, five years ago. They make these moves for the hype, and because it sells tickets. Nothing more, nothing less. JR is a snake oil salesman.

[hitlesswonder]

Not just spending money to FILL SEATS, which is what Dollar Bill did, and what JR does with the Sox, but spending money to WIN. You really think the White Sox made moves like Griffey, Peavy, Manny, etc to WIN? No, they made big splash moves like that to SELL TICKETS and MERCHANDISE. Peavy is awesome, for the 1/4 of the season he is healthy. Griffey was awesome, ten years ago. Manny was awesome, five years ago. They make these moves for the hype, and because it sells tickets. Nothing more, nothing less. JR is a snake oil salesman.

 

Griffey and Manny were desperation moves to fill holes at the end of seasons with the Sox competing for the playoffs. They made the playoffs in 2008 with Griffey, I'd consider that winning. Neither of those moves mortgaged the future of the team, and they certainly didn't sell much extra merchandise or fill seats. People knew/know that Griffey and Manram are no longer stars.

 

As for Peavy, KW thought he was acquiring a guy who would compete for a Cy Young award. That was not a crazy thought, and those guys are hard to acquire. His previous injuries were not arm-related, so I don't know if there were any huge red flags that would make that deal seem idiotic at the time. Peavy wasn't just hype or snake-oil, he was a guy you could project to be a legit good pitcher for several years.

 

The White Sox haven't won in 2009 and 2010 because KW made some truly awful moves, not because the Sox relied on expensive over-hyped veterans. They didn't really rely on aging over-hyped veterans any more than they did in 2005.

 

In fact, if the Sox had signed the aging veteran DH Jim Thome to bring fans in to watch him hit historic home runs they would have been better off.

Edited September 15, 2010 by hitlesswonder

[kitekrazy]

Trust me, you don't want the Sox to win 60 games next year.

 

Sometimes that's what it takes. It's more excusable than high priced mediocrity. But the farm aint so good either from what I've heard.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Viciedo has no plate discipline and right now doesn't project as even an average major-league player at any point in his career.

 

I've agreed with just about everything you've said all night until this little doozy. Where the hell did this come from?

 

[daggins]

The model I personally hope changes is that JR and KW realize that the days where they could field an 82-86 win team on paper and hope for some career years is behind them. The Twins are a major player and they will have to spend and make smarter personnel decisions to even compete with them.

 

You can bet that the Tigers, who have some 60mil or so coming off the books, will spend a lot this season to get competitive with the Twins. Will the Sox FO really be content to field another 100mil 3rd place team?

[daggins]

Sometimes that's what it takes. It's more excusable than high priced mediocrity. But the farm aint so good either from what I've heard.

 

Coming into the season the Indians had a top 5 farm system and were expected by many to be an average team with lots of young breakout talent. That didn't happen, and now they look mired in a mess of low attendance and underachieving youth.

 

Rebuilding doesn't work if you don't have a smart, future-oriented FO (as well as a lot of luck). The Rays win because they had loads of high draft positions and a smart, analytical FO making moves when necessary.

Edited September 15, 2010 by daggins

[dmbjeff]

i think a fresh start for the organization is in order. in KW's 10 years on the job, 2 playoff appearances. that is 20 % with a large market team playing against small market teams. that is unacceptable. i think we need new, fresh ideas. Ozzie should go too. he has been downright horrible the past few seasons. i think we need to shake it up.

[hitlesswonder]

I've agreed with just about everything you've said all night until this little doozy. Where the hell did this come from?

 

He can't play the field. So he's a DH and his OBP is going to be bad. Is Jeff Francouer an average major league player at DH? Not in my opinion.

 

Average major league players are actually valuable players, so I'm not saying Viciedo is never going to be more than replacement level, or won't play in the bigs for a few years. I am saying that I expect him to be about as valuable as a Francouer that can't field.

 

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, and maybe someone that has access to better minor league/scouting info can post and correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't think Dayan is in anyone's top 100 prospect list.

[kitekrazy]

Coming into the season the Indians had a top 5 farm system and were expected by many to be an average team with lots of young breakout talent. That didn't happen, and now they look mired in a mess of low attendance and underachieving youth.

 

Rebuilding doesn't work if you don't have a smart, future-oriented FO (as well as a lot of luck). The Rays win because they had loads of high draft positions and a smart, analytical FO making moves when necessary.

 

You have to draft well. There's many bad teams who always have high picks and they still lose.

You have to start out with good scouts.

 

[daggins]

The Sox have done better on that front lately, although the 2010 haul was a bit of a disappointment. If you look at a team like Boston, they rarely have high draft position, but they manage to build a solid farm because they are always willing to pay for the right player. The Sox MO for the last decade has been mid-to-low draft placement but no money for anyone. You can't build a solid farm without spending the cash, and that has always been a weakness of the current regime.