Time To Change The Business Model

[southsideirish71]

Only until this season Ramirez would not be even considered a great fielder. He played much better once Omar started playing 3rd.

The station to station and homerun or nothing hasn't made the Sox win either. They need to find the right balance.

Still people overlook the obvious that the pitching was the paper tiger.

Danks and Floyd may be regressing when they should be progressing.

 

But Ramirez has had the entire breathe of the season to judge his skill. Its not like he wore the mitt on his head, caught the ball for 7 games in a row and we yelled success. Tricking some GM with magic pixie dust of a few games doesnt work, well unless that pixie dust is in Arizona and it happens to be fall.

 

I hope you realize that in 2005 we played station-to-station baseball. We hit home runs and scored most of our runs via the dong. We won that year because of just outstanding starting pitching. Everyone had a great year and our bullpen was outstanding. We did not play slap and tickle baseball like people romantically remember. For every Pods steal that you remember, there was a long home run somewhere in the game providing most of the offense.

 

You keep acting like the pitching is the only reason we lost this year. Anyone who builds a team and plans on 3-2 and 4-1 games in the AL is just playing with fire. Hopeing that all the stars would align and having nothing behind the scenes to back it up is a bad plan.

[greg775]

No no no, we must find someone else to blame rather than the team that hit <.200 and had era for a couple months. there must be someone to blame.>

 

The truth is, if we played even mediocre, not even average just not-horrifically, for the start of the season we easily win 5-10 more games. The team was so unbelievably bad in the beginning its comical that people are blaming everyone but the f***ing players themselves.

 

That, but the fact remains our record alone against Minnesota is too much to overcome.

You can't give up 7 games to a divisional foe.

5-12? Cmon. That in itself will lose us the title every single year.

I repeat ... other teams in the division also have to start beating the Twins some. Royals played us .500; Twins have kicked their ass as well; don't know about Cleve and Det's record against Minnie.

This whole division has been put in its place by Minnie. Thank god we won that playoff game vs. Minnesota. That was a special day. Of course the coin flip is the only thing that gave us a chance in that one, unless Thome would have homered 3 times in the Humpydome.

[The Ginger Kid]

I would be happy to suffer a season of adjustment if we had some young guys to bring up and let take their lumps.

 

This team has tried for 5 seasons to capture the magic of '05 and I don't fault them. But it's time to let it go. Forget re-loading, Kenny. Find a way to deal for some promising prospects and RE-BUILD.

[Soxbadger]

What teams exactly average more than 87/88 wins every year?

 

The Sox spend a good amount of money. They wont be the Yankees until they sell more tickets and charge you for a pay per view Sox channel.

 

As for the ridiculous Wirtz comment previously. Before Bill Wirtz died in 2007 Blackhawks were rated as one of the worst hockey franchises less than 3 years after his death Hawks win Stanley Cup.

 

Here is an article after the 2006 season.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...0417_blackhawks

 

So yeah this thread is ridiculous.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Soxbadger

[greg775]

I would be happy to suffer a season of adjustment if we had some young guys to bring up and let take their lumps.

 

This team has tried for 5 seasons to capture the magic of '05 and I don't fault them. But it's time to let it go. Forget re-loading, Kenny. Find a way to deal for some promising prospects and RE-BUILD.

 

You guys who want to rebuild are too general. Tell us who you want to see out there next year every game.

Do you want us to draw 17,000 fans all summer?

Has rebuilding helped Cleveland or KC? How long have the O's sucked balls?

The Bosox and Yankees have brought in a lot of new players every year. I say keep the pitchers if our scouts continue to feel that on paper they rock ... and try again with altering the lineup by dumping some/acquiring others.

 

Please get rid of Pierre somehow and Teahen somehow and I'd be OK with dumping AJ.

But sign some good players off free agency. I haven't studied the finances. If you can't make it work, then trade Mark or Rios to free the funds to fill other positions instead.

 

What the f*** does rebuilding mean? Losing for the sake of losing, so we can feel better and say, 'wait til these kids grow up?'

The Royals are still waiting for tons of kids to start winning.

Edited September 16, 2010 by greg775

[LittleHurt05]

That, but the fact remains our record alone against Minnesota is too much to overcome.

You can't give up 7 games to a divisional foe.

5-12? Cmon. That in itself will lose us the title every single year.

I repeat ... other teams in the division also have to start beating the Twins some. Royals played us .500; Twins have kicked their ass as well; don't know about Cleve and Det's record against Minnie.

This whole division has been put in its place by Minnie. Thank god we won that playoff game vs. Minnesota. That was a special day. Of course the coin flip is the only thing that gave us a chance in that one, unless Thome would have homered 3 times in the Humpydome.

 

The Reds went 6-12 vs. the Cardinals this season and yet still own a 7 game lead in the division. Granted, Cincy kicked the rest of the division's butt, but they manged to get around their inability to beat STL.

[greg775]

The Reds went 6-12 vs. the Cardinals this season and yet still own a 7 game lead in the division. Granted, Cincy kicked the rest of the division's butt, but they manged to get around their inability to beat STL.

 

I did not know that. Very intersting. Kudos to the Reds for pulling that off somehow.

[Dick Allen]

Bring on the rebuilding phase (I know it won't happen). But this is sickening.

What team has really successfully re built in 4 or 5 years in the past 15 years?

[greg775]

Rebuilding is another sports cliche.

 

The bigger question is can this pitching staff start evolving into greatness? Will it or won't it.

Stretches of greatness, so much that guys like Joe Morgan embarrass themselves with outlandish statements.

 

Keep the pitching (save for Linebrink, Bobby, Pena, Freddy) ... make some significant changes to the everyday 9 through trades/free agency/tinkering.

Edited September 16, 2010 by greg775

[Dick Allen]

They are in job preservation mode. Get to 90 wins and call this season a success.

Normally I'd agree with this statement, but White Sox fans and the public in general really has never bought in to the 2010 White Sox. They are going to have some selling to do this offseason.

[SoxAce]

What team has really successfully re built in 4 or 5 years in the past 15 years?

 

I agree. It's not like this team is old anyways, just the bench. Most of the guys will still be in their prime (Rios, Peavy, Alexei will be 30 next year, Jackson and Floyd 28, Danks 26, Beckham, 24 till September) etc..

Edited September 16, 2010 by J.Reedfan8

[Dick Allen]

I agree. It's not like this team is old anyways, just the bench. Most of the guys will still be in their prime (Rios, Peavy, Alexei will be 30 next year, Jackson and Floyd 28, Danks 26, Beckham, 24 till September) etc..

Exactly. You know what you are going to get out of those guys. There's no question, the roster is going to have to be tweaked, maybe a lot to convince people they can beat Minnesota, but to go into full rebuilding mode now, with the talent on hand and the condition of the divison is ridiculous. Its too bad they will more than likely be "stretched" for cash again, because one way to instantly upgrade your roster is the willingness to take on some money.

[Soxbadger]

I dont like the idea of rebuilding. Sox had a chance, it didnt work out. You go back to the drawing board and come back better.

[kitekrazy]

I did not know that. Very intersting. Kudos to the Reds for pulling that off somehow.

 

All you have to do is win games you are suppose to. I think when the Rays were bad they still gave the Yankees fits.

 

[kitekrazy]

Exactly. You know what you are going to get out of those guys. There's no question, the roster is going to have to be tweaked, maybe a lot to convince people they can beat Minnesota, but to go into full rebuilding mode now, with the talent on hand and the condition of the divison is ridiculous. Its too bad they will more than likely be "stretched" for cash again, because one way to instantly upgrade your roster is the willingness to take on some money.

 

You wonder how stretched they really are for cash when they were willing to pay Manny $4m for a month of baseball. They've cried poor before and seem to come up with this money.

 

[kitekrazy]

I dont like the idea of rebuilding. Sox had a chance, it didnt work out. You go back to the drawing board and come back better.

 

Only way to rebuild is start only with the farm and get good scouts. Getting Beckham and Sale shows signs the scout are doing their jobs.

 

[Soxbadger]

Well Beckham was one of the higher picks the Sox have had. Sale was a player that fell and the Sox decided to go after.

 

In seasons past theyve taken a much more conservative approach or havent had a shot at the big time players due to draft position.

 

I just want a team that has a chance. If the Sox come back as is, 100% healthy they have a chance.

[kwolf68]

 

You want to beat Minnesota?

 

1-Get guys who can catch the damn baseball

2-Get guys who play smart

3-Pitch well

4-Play aggressive on the base paths

 

I think 3 and 4 we're probably decent on...#2 is not great and #1 is disaster zone.

 

Imagine how much BETTER our pitching would be if we didn't have jesters in our lineup playing soccer instead of baseball?

 

 

[caulfield12]

Which means you have to make Quentin a DH or dump him and then have to replace both Quentin and Konerko offensively (making Rios, Beckham and Ramirez your top 3 offensive players)...

 

And not having Teahen/Viciedo at 3B.

 

You probably also can't count on Vizquel to repeat this season's success again...certainly not to be the starter at 3B.

 

So that means Morel at 3B, Viciedo/Teahen at 1B/DH and a new RF/DH if/when you ditch Quentin.

 

That's #1) a tremendous amount of offense to replace in the line-up and 2) a plan that will really ago awry if Morel, Teahen, Viciedo and possibly Flowers don't hit. I think Viciedo will hit, but we have no idea (we can guess) in terms of projecting out Morel, Flowers or even Teahen for a full season.

 

One thing it does mean is that our pitching staff and bullpen will have even more pressure placed on them than the starters did the first two months of this season, with the scenario of losing both Quentin and Konerko.

 

There's no way in hell they're going to be able to dump Teahen without eating 75% or more of his contract. So we're stuck with him, for better or worse.

 

And the idea of Manny Ramirez coming back to Chicago is now officially laughable in the span of 10 days. That took some work, Manny.

[Jordan4life_2007]

What team has really successfully re built in 4 or 5 years in the past 15 years?

 

The Braves? They had their insane run, fell off for a few years, and they're right back in the thick of things in the NL. The Phillies went from a laughing stock to a perennial powerhouse. Not saying there's any bulletproof formula here. But our current formula, well, sucks.

[caulfield12]

The Rockies are kind of like the White Sox, except they're notorious for being hot in the second half of the season.

 

They were pretty good in the mid 90's, went through a pretty long dry spell of rebuilding and losing about 1/3rd of their fanbase, but they've worked hard to become a competitive team through a combination of good drafting and some key trades like the one for CarGo.

 

 

The Padres were pretty decent in the first half the decade and then turned to a rebuilding mode with the exception of holding onto Adrian Gonzalez.

 

Braves fit that mold....the Rangers, to some extent, they had a core of players like Michael Young and Ian Kinsler, but most of that team has been built around those guys by Daniels, who started off learning on the job but who has rebounded nicely to become one of the best young GM's in the game, and his background was actually in retail/marketing at the corporate level.

 

 

[Jake]

Rebuilding is a bad idea, IMO.

 

You have a $50+ million rotation, and it is actually good. I believe we'll get what we're paying for, even though everyone likes to have good players that are making league minimum. These aren't bad contracts in the rotation, we're paying good pitchers that are still good.

 

There might be a hole or two in the pen, but regardless what we have going into next year is a playoff caliber (and playoff priced) pitching staff. This means you have to try to win, we have to keep going forward as an all-in situation because the pitching is going to keep us in it. I'm okay with giving a chance to a guy like Dayan, who is loaded with talent and has already shown us he can at the very least compete at this level, if not down the road perhaps dominate it. Some player development could really pay off here.

 

In general though, I don't think we're as far away as many of you would like to think. Getting Paulie back would be the first step in showing that we're trying to win and of course an important step in sustaining an offense. Rios is a fixture and a valuable one despite a slow second half. Hating on Quentin is easy but he still produced quite a few runs in a down year. If Quentin came back to some extent, that already is a huge step in once again having a solid offense to go with this pitching. He's also cheap enough that this is the type of frugal gamble many Soxtalkers should like, if it weren't for the fact many have washed their hands of him. He very well may finish the season with 90-100 RBIs and that's nothing to turn your nose up at, despite some of his noted flaws.

 

Many of you would like to dump Pierre, but I'm not as supportive of the idea. My impression is that he's coming basically free, but feel free to correct me if that's incorrect. He adds that elusive speed and if he gained that 30 points to his average that he's had for a career that's already an upgrade from this year. Everyone likes to hate on the low OPS which has some merit but it is difficult to quantify 50-60 stolen bases. One must admit that this has some redeeming quality for his offense. He's also not a bad defender.

 

I don't think there is any argument over the retention of Alexei. Solid offense with a bit of flair, some pop and some strikeouts, but still more or less a .300 hitter after March/April. One might think that with every year he'll improve upon his slow start syndrome. We all know he's blossomed into an excellent defender and it is hard for me to believe we could upgrade there, we certainly don't have the system for it.

 

Beckham's situation is a bit ambiguous. Did he or didn't he snap out of the slump? Is he a good defender? The talent is there on both counts, and one may think on the defensive side he'll benefit coming back a second year in the same position, much like Alexei. The offense is a little less secure. Maybe he is just a .250 hitter with a little pop. Nonetheless, especially with you guys obsessed with the payroll, he's a cheap option that sells merchandise. He's the type of talent that could make our patience really pay off. With his charisma, a big season from him would really pay off in more ways than just on the field. I'm talking asses in seats here folks.

 

You can try to replace AJ, but I'm not really sure what's out there. It's just generally difficult to pick up a good catcher. When it's all said and done, he may finish the season at .270 which isn't really exciting but that's quite a comeback from earlier this year. He's not a high potential bat, but can be useful and I'm overall satisfied with his defense. We know he doesn't have a strong arm and that can be a bit frustrating, but in this era there are just so many guys that aren't ever going to steal a base anyway. I'm open to upgrading here, but I'm hesitant to say there's going to be a good option here. Keep Flowers waiting in the wings, he no longer excites me with his down year this year and supposedly lackluster (or at best just average) defense.

 

Vizquel seems valuable in that he's cheap, is willing (perhaps prefers) to be a back up but has shown he can be a viable fill in.

 

Obviously any GM will take an upgrade if it presents itself at any of these positions if it comes up, but in most cases as you can see there are solid arguments for staying put in many positions. DH is the big hole. We don't need to see Mark Kotsay or Andruw Jones around anymore. You can throw a young guy there, maybe Viciedo if his defense can't improve, but really this is the place you can probably make a splash and really improve the offense. Needless to say you're seeking a lefty bat here with our lineup.

 

One more thing, Teahen - yes it appears to be a bad contract right now. He's a guy I'm not convinced deserves to have a spot given to him without some kind of fight. However, 5 million dollars is NOT a big deal to a payroll like the White Sox. I know it very well could be a wasted 5 million, but part of being a major market team is that we can absorb this type of relatively minor folly. We're not the Cubs, with 10-15 million dollar bums all around. You can be upset by this deal with justification, but this type of thing is easily overcome. Same with Linebrink. No team has all good contracts and honestly no one expected Linebrink to be unusable in late game spots when we signed him. It's typically not wise to give relievers long term deals but this wasn't originally as bad as it looks now. Once again, those are our two mistakes. We can overcome that and perhaps we can dump one or both on someone.

 

Look up people, we're really not that far from greatness! It's easy to remember every failure when this is the team you watch every day, but it's really not as bad as it seems. The grass isn't always greener. While I like watching young kids play, I don't wanna see a hapless bunch of youngsters that aren't going to win. We have the money to put together a good team and pick our spots for our young guys, much like the other high payroll teams.

 

I see a rejuvenated, not a reconstructed White Sox team in 2011. And I see them winning.

[caulfield12]

We might not be that far from greatness, but it's also hard to argue how we could possibly be improved...

 

1) Beckham would need to put up an 850-875 OPS

2) Quentin would need to hit consistently all year, especially on the road

3) We'd have to find the money to resign Konerko and AJ

4) We'd have to find a replacement for Jones/Kotsay with seemingly no money to spend (except on Manny Ramirez)

5) Peavy has to be 100%

6) The Twins would have to succumb to even more injuries or bad luck than they did this year (Morneau concussion)...and not bring in any new FA's, and possibly lose both Hudson and Thome, although I can't imagine Jim retiring OR not going back there again in 2011. And you know Ozzie and KW wouldn't bring him back, Jim would probably refuse after Ozzie's idiotic comments and if he did come back, he would be done after all.

7) The one big improvement would seemingly be Chris Sale waiting in the wings instead of Harrell/Torres/Pena

8) The bullpen has to replace Jenks, probably Putz, 50/50 KW lets Pena go, and Sale might be starting in the minors or majors (if Peavy isn't ready)...so that leaves Thornton and Linebrink, NOT good at all, and a huge concern coming off our 2nd half struggles in that area

9) Morel would have to come in and put up a 750 OPS and play Gold Glove caliber defense, because we can't rely up Teahen or Viciedo defensively, and Vizquel due to his age

10) We have to hope the "good" Alex Rios turns up again

Edited September 16, 2010 by caulfield12

[LittleHurt05]

We might not be that far from greatness, but it's also hard to argue how we could possibly be improved...

 

1) Beckham would need to put up an 850-875 OPS

2) Quentin would need to hit consistently all year, especially on the road

3) We'd have to find the money to resign Konerko and AJ

4) We'd have to find a replacement for Jones/Kotsay with seemingly no money to spend (except on Manny Ramirez)

5) Peavy has to be 100%

6) The Twins would have to succumb to even more injuries or bad luck than they did this year (Morneau concussion)...and not bring in any new FA's, and possibly lose both Hudson and Thome, although I can't imagine Jim retiring OR not going back there again in 2011. And you know Ozzie and KW wouldn't bring him back, Jim would probably refuse after Ozzie's idiotic comments and if he did come back, he would be done after all.7) The one big improvement would seemingly be Chris Sale waiting in the wings instead of Harrell/Torres/Pena

8) The bullpen has to replace Jenks, probably Putz, 50/50 KW lets Pena go, and Sale might be starting in the minors or majors (if Peavy isn't ready)...so that leaves Thornton and Linebrink, NOT good at all, and a huge concern coming off our 2nd half struggles in that area

9) Morel would have to come in and put up a 750 OPS and play Gold Glove caliber defense, because we can't rely up Teahen or Viciedo defensively, and Vizquel due to his age

10) We have to hope the "good" Alex Rios turns up again

 

Good points about the White Sox, but the Twins can have similar questions and they have had their share of good luck as well.

 

Is Brian Duensing gonna keep a 2.25 ERA as a starter next year?

Can Carl Pavano keep up his career resurgence at the age of 35?

Can Danny Valencia, 19th round pick, keep up an OPS over .800 for a full season?

Will Jim Thome once again be able to put up the 3rd or 4th highest OPS of his entire career at the age of 40?

 

I am not doubting that the Twins are a great and better ballclub. But they also have had some stuff go their way this year, that they may not be able to keep up next year.

[stretchstretch]

Would you be happy with making the playoffs and losing ever year?

 

How do you value success, if winning is all that matters then shouldnt it mean nothing if you aint got no ring?

 

Sox spend to win. I will support them as long as they try to win. For most of my life they tried way less and I supported them, why am I going to go give up now?

 

 

1 in 8 playoff teams ends up with a ring, so the chances are very slim of being "the one", so I'll take winning the division and being on Natl TV every October over attempting to recreate lightning in a bottle 2005