Time To Change The Business Model

[chisoxt]

We might not be that far from greatness, but it's also hard to argue how we could possibly be improved...

 

1) Beckham would need to put up an 850-875 OPS

2) Quentin would need to hit consistently all year, especially on the road

3) We'd have to find the money to resign Konerko and AJ

4) We'd have to find a replacement for Jones/Kotsay with seemingly no money to spend (except on Manny Ramirez)

5) Peavy has to be 100%

6) The Twins would have to succumb to even more injuries or bad luck than they did this year (Morneau concussion)...and not bring in any new FA's, and possibly lose both Hudson and Thome, although I can't imagine Jim retiring OR not going back there again in 2011. And you know Ozzie and KW wouldn't bring him back, Jim would probably refuse after Ozzie's idiotic comments and if he did come back, he would be done after all.

7) The one big improvement would seemingly be Chris Sale waiting in the wings instead of Harrell/Torres/Pena

8) The bullpen has to replace Jenks, probably Putz, 50/50 KW lets Pena go, and Sale might be starting in the minors or majors (if Peavy isn't ready)...so that leaves Thornton and Linebrink, NOT good at all, and a huge concern coming off our 2nd half struggles in that area

9) Morel would have to come in and put up a 750 OPS and play Gold Glove caliber defense, because we can't rely up Teahen or Viciedo defensively, and Vizquel due to his age

10) We have to hope the "good" Alex Rios turns up again

Not only this, but everybody also totally disregards the importance of a contribution form the farm system during the course of the season. I think that this is especially important for a older team like the Sox that typically has guys who are injured and dinged during the course of a season. This, IMO, is one of the reasons that explains why the Twins are so much better than us year in and year out. They always seem to pull guys out of their system to replace guys who are either hurt or underperforming. The replacement guys then go on to signicantly contribute to the team's success (Daniel Valencia). This isn't a typical pattern for just the twins...look around to any team's championship year (even ours in 2005 with Jenks, McCarthy and Anderson) and you will find evidence of some player(s) who weren't even on the radar screen prior to the season. Sure, those players can come from other sources (cast-off free agents, etc) but usually, they are guys from the team's farm system.

 

is a continual reminder of how bad our farm system isattempt to pitch is

[stretchstretch]

Giving up on 5 or more seasons until the Sox accumulate enough top 5 picks to have decent cheap talent isn't anything I want to watch.

 

 

but honestly, have the last 5 seasons not been equally grueling being led to believe you were built to contend based upon an illusion?

 

since 2005 we head into ST with optimism (and a bunch of "if onlys") and sit on a roller coaster of hope for 6 months.

 

unless of course we are in fact built to succeed and it really does all come down to poor coaching?

 

come to think of it, the Sox new tag line should be

[Balta1701]

You want to beat Minnesota?

 

1-Get guys who can catch the damn baseball

2-Get guys who play smart

3-Pitch well

4-Play aggressive on the base paths

 

I think 3 and 4 we're probably decent on...#2 is not great and #1 is disaster zone.

 

Imagine how much BETTER our pitching would be if we didn't have jesters in our lineup playing soccer instead of baseball?

I have to totally disagree...we're terrible on #4. We're way the Hell too aggressive. It gives away inning after inning.

[stretchstretch]

I think the gist of this thread is that the game has changed. Look all around baseball at the moment. At all the playoff teams or near playoff teams. Other than the Yankees, you see elite, homegrown, and more importantly, cheap and controlled talent up and down their rosters. The Rays, Rangers, Reds, Rockies head the list. And the Twins have obviously flourished at this for years. Yes, I know most of these teams sucked for years before they got to this point. But they're hear now. And it doesn't look like they're going anywhere anytime soon (especially the Rays, they're deeper than Oprah's asshole pitching wise, majors and minors). This is why guys like me, fathom, russ, I think Ace, ect, were so against the Jackson trade. It's not because we think Jackson is the second coming of Todd Ritchie. It's because it was a horrible business move. There was just no real logic behind it. Other than Cooper's insistence that he could "fix" him. But when you're already up against your financial threshold, and you already have glaring holes all over the place that need to be filled, you don't have that option. Somebody used the word "piecemeal" to describe the way the Sox run things. And that's a PERFECT way to describe it. I think that's what I mean when I say the '05 title was a fluke. Yes, we were the best team that year. But the way that team was put together was no formula for a sustained run, obviously. We added a lot of guys coming off down years or that nobody wanted and it magically came together for a year. And we've been doing that ever since with one division title to show for it the last 5 years. Unacceptable.

 

I guess I'm one of the few fans that would welcome a "rebuilding" period (i.e. a down year or two) if that ultimately meant we were building for a sustained run of success. Finishing 2nd/3rd every year is like making out with a relative. Your ass is sitting at home watching the playoffs just like the teams that lost 95-100 games. Except they at least get a top 5 pick to work with.

 

first, I have to say thank you for what is perhaps the quote of the year, literally sprayed coffee on my desk.

 

second, yes, exactly, as a fan I'd rather watch the growing process with lowered expectations, than sit hoping beyond hope (on TV, PC, Cell), day after day from April-Sept that somehow this year's Sox team will align their $110M payroll of castaways and nonames to outlast MN on Oct1st, and again, end up bitterly bitterly disappointed and wondering what has to change. If they start over and rebuild, at least their will be no guessing why they're not good, we'll know.

 

[stretchstretch]

Yeah but there are no guarantees.

Royals, Pirates, O's, Indians, haven't they all been trying to rebuild that way?

 

As painful as this season has been, we have what most baseball people think is potentially a great staff.

We have to keep that staff intact and tinker some more and make some big time changes with the everyday lineup.

 

exactly, we just bring up Span, Kubel, Valencia, Cuddyer, Punto, Hardy, Repko, Young from AAA and we're all set......oh wait nevermind, we don't have a farm system

 

[Balta1701]

exactly, we just bring up Span, Kubel, Valencia, Cuddyer, Punto, Hardy, Repko, Young from AAA and we're all set......oh wait nevermind, we don't have a farm system

JJ Hardy came about by trading Carlos Gomez to the Brewers. Carlos Gomez was traded for the best pitcher in baseball at the time.

 

Delmon Young was traded for a starting pitcher and a starting SS and then given 2-3 years to get his act together.

[LittleHurt05]

first, I have to say thank you for what is perhaps the quote of the year, literally sprayed coffee on my desk.

 

second, yes, exactly, as a fan I'd rather watch the growing process with lowered expectations, than sit hoping beyond hope (on TV, PC, Cell), day after day from April-Sept that somehow this year's Sox team will align their $110M payroll of castaways and nonames to outlast MN on Oct1st, and again, end up bitterly bitterly disappointed and wondering what has to change. If they start over and rebuild, at least their will be no guessing why they're not good, we'll know.

 

So if for the next 7 years, the White Sox won about 70-75 games a year, were out of the pennant race every July, but were playing young players that provided hope (but no guarantees) of future playoff success, you would be happier? No thanks.

[The Ginger Kid]

Delmon Young was traded for a starting pitcher and a starting SS and then given 2-3 years to get his act together.

yeah, that's finally working out this season, but I would still give the Rays the edge on that swap.

[greg775]

but honestly, have the last 5 seasons not been equally grueling being led to believe you were built to contend based upon an illusion?

 

since 2005 we head into ST with optimism (and a bunch of "if onlys") and sit on a roller coaster of hope for 6 months.

 

unless of course we are in fact built to succeed and it really does all come down to poor coaching?

 

come to think of it, the Sox new tag line should be

 

 

So if for the next 7 years, the White Sox won about 70-75 games a year, were out of the pennant race every July, but were playing young players that provided hope (but no guarantees) of future playoff success, you would be happier? No thanks.

 

Rebuilding sounds nice but in reality it is awful and the minute we are out of it in late May and we're playing young guys and losing every night, the complaining will still be immense.

People will be wondering if we are rebuilding with the right guys, etc.

The Royals have played guys like Gordon who had to be re-sent down several times and pitching a bundle of young pitchers who except for Greinke turned out to be no good, etc.

Nobody is going to support a rebuilding young team if it sucks. Cause there's no guarantee you are building for anything meaningful.

[RockRaines]

Rebuilding is a garbage term for a team that has s*** players and loses all the time. No franchise truly "rebuilds" especially in a major market. They can get lucky with some young players, but you cannot just "build" a team in modern baseball. You at some point have to make decisions to trade prospects and bring in players, thats how teams finally win.

[mcgrad70]

Really don't care. If the team isn't willing to spend money out of their pocket to get better and correct their mistakes, it's not a team I want to support. The fans should NOT be paying for our organization's inability to draft well and develop players.

 

Thank you....thank you ...thank you!

 

[mcgrad70]

Rebuilding is a bad idea, IMO.

 

You have a $50+ million rotation, and it is actually good. I believe we'll get what we're paying for, even though everyone likes to have good players that are making league minimum. These aren't bad contracts in the rotation, we're paying good pitchers that are still good.

 

There might be a hole or two in the pen, but regardless what we have going into next year is a playoff caliber (and playoff priced) pitching staff. This means you have to try to win, we have to keep going forward as an all-in situation because the pitching is going to keep us in it. I'm okay with giving a chance to a guy like Dayan, who is loaded with talent and has already shown us he can at the very least compete at this level, if not down the road perhaps dominate it. Some player development could really pay off here.

 

In general though, I don't think we're as far away as many of you would like to think. Getting Paulie back would be the first step in showing that we're trying to win and of course an important step in sustaining an offense. Rios is a fixture and a valuable one despite a slow second half. Hating on Quentin is easy but he still produced quite a few runs in a down year. If Quentin came back to some extent, that already is a huge step in once again having a solid offense to go with this pitching. He's also cheap enough that this is the type of frugal gamble many Soxtalkers should like, if it weren't for the fact many have washed their hands of him. He very well may finish the season with 90-100 RBIs and that's nothing to turn your nose up at, despite some of his noted flaws.

 

Many of you would like to dump Pierre, but I'm not as supportive of the idea. My impression is that he's coming basically free, but feel free to correct me if that's incorrect. He adds that elusive speed and if he gained that 30 points to his average that he's had for a career that's already an upgrade from this year. Everyone likes to hate on the low OPS which has some merit but it is difficult to quantify 50-60 stolen bases. One must admit that this has some redeeming quality for his offense. He's also not a bad defender.

 

I don't think there is any argument over the retention of Alexei. Solid offense with a bit of flair, some pop and some strikeouts, but still more or less a .300 hitter after March/April. One might think that with every year he'll improve upon his slow start syndrome. We all know he's blossomed into an excellent defender and it is hard for me to believe we could upgrade there, we certainly don't have the system for it.

 

Beckham's situation is a bit ambiguous. Did he or didn't he snap out of the slump? Is he a good defender? The talent is there on both counts, and one may think on the defensive side he'll benefit coming back a second year in the same position, much like Alexei. The offense is a little less secure. Maybe he is just a .250 hitter with a little pop. Nonetheless, especially with you guys obsessed with the payroll, he's a cheap option that sells merchandise. He's the type of talent that could make our patience really pay off. With his charisma, a big season from him would really pay off in more ways than just on the field. I'm talking asses in seats here folks.

 

You can try to replace AJ, but I'm not really sure what's out there. It's just generally difficult to pick up a good catcher. When it's all said and done, he may finish the season at .270 which isn't really exciting but that's quite a comeback from earlier this year. He's not a high potential bat, but can be useful and I'm overall satisfied with his defense. We know he doesn't have a strong arm and that can be a bit frustrating, but in this era there are just so many guys that aren't ever going to steal a base anyway. I'm open to upgrading here, but I'm hesitant to say there's going to be a good option here. Keep Flowers waiting in the wings, he no longer excites me with his down year this year and supposedly lackluster (or at best just average) defense.

 

Vizquel seems valuable in that he's cheap, is willing (perhaps prefers) to be a back up but has shown he can be a viable fill in.

 

Obviously any GM will take an upgrade if it presents itself at any of these positions if it comes up, but in most cases as you can see there are solid arguments for staying put in many positions. DH is the big hole. We don't need to see Mark Kotsay or Andruw Jones around anymore. You can throw a young guy there, maybe Viciedo if his defense can't improve, but really this is the place you can probably make a splash and really improve the offense. Needless to say you're seeking a lefty bat here with our lineup.

 

One more thing, Teahen - yes it appears to be a bad contract right now. He's a guy I'm not convinced deserves to have a spot given to him without some kind of fight. However, 5 million dollars is NOT a big deal to a payroll like the White Sox. I know it very well could be a wasted 5 million, but part of being a major market team is that we can absorb this type of relatively minor folly. We're not the Cubs, with 10-15 million dollar bums all around. You can be upset by this deal with justification, but this type of thing is easily overcome. Same with Linebrink. No team has all good contracts and honestly no one expected Linebrink to be unusable in late game spots when we signed him. It's typically not wise to give relievers long term deals but this wasn't originally as bad as it looks now. Once again, those are our two mistakes. We can overcome that and perhaps we can dump one or both on someone.

 

Look up people, we're really not that far from greatness! It's easy to remember every failure when this is the team you watch every day, but it's really not as bad as it seems. The grass isn't always greener. While I like watching young kids play, I don't wanna see a hapless bunch of youngsters that aren't going to win. We have the money to put together a good team and pick our spots for our young guys, much like the other high payroll teams.

 

I see a rejuvenated, not a reconstructed White Sox team in 2011. And I see them winning.

 

 

All of that sounds nice but you forget who the manager is.

Guillen personally pissed away 15 games I can think of right off hand with his bumbling of the pitching staff and this inane resting of 20-something year old men.

Edited September 17, 2010 by mcgrad70

[BearingPro]

I want to see big changes with this team.

 

At the very least we need a 3rd baseman, a right fielder, a closer, a DH, another starter...KW has his hands full with this team.

 

Anyone that thinks this current WS team can compete with the AL elite is dreaming.

[Balta1701]

I want to see big changes with this team.

 

At the very least we need a 3rd baseman, a right fielder, a closer, a DH, another starter...KW has his hands full with this team.

 

Anyone that thinks this current WS team can compete with the AL elite is dreaming.

Why does this team need another starter? I count 6.

 

They absolutely need a closer. I'm not sure what to do about RF and 3b myself...3b at least has people on the way up, RF has a talented guy who seemingly has forgotten how to hit.

[NorthSideSox72]

I want to see big changes with this team.

 

At the very least we need a 3rd baseman, a right fielder, a closer, a DH, another starter...KW has his hands full with this team.

 

Anyone that thinks this current WS team can compete with the AL elite is dreaming.

Another starter is the last thing this team needs, in fact just about every other team in baseball would love to have the 6 guys the Sox have lined up for that role next year at this point. Third base is also not a need, the team has a surplus of guys to fight for that spot.

 

Really, the only big needs right now are a lefty bat that can DH/OF, and another bullpen guy (not necessarily a closer, if Putz is your guy next year). Other needs are about dealing with Konerko and AJ's impending free agency.

 

Anyone that thinks this team is not competitive in 2011, already, is having nightmares.

 

I would love to see the Sox get Konerko on 2 year deal, and assuming Peavy is healthy, trade one of Floyd or Danks (preferably Floyd) along with maybe Quentin to get the best LH OF/DH bat you can find. Give AJ a one year deal, which at this point is all he'd get anywhere, and let Flowers get back on track in AAA. Then see what the market has available for relievers. Do those things, and this team is very much competitive in 2011.

 

 

[Jake]

All of that sounds nice but you forget who the manager is.

Guillen personally pissed away 15 games I can think of right off hand with his bumbling of the pitching staff and this inane resting of 20-something year old men.

 

All I can say is that managing is much more difficult when players don't play well. Especially the pitching staff. Ozzie isn't perfect, but he's not responsible for 15 losses. No way, no how.

[LittleHurt05]

All of that sounds nice but you forget who the manager is.

Guillen personally pissed away 15 games I can think of right off hand with his bumbling of the pitching staff and this inane resting of 20-something year old men.

 

Really? Could you please list these 15 games that are 100% squarely on the shoulders of Ozzie Guillen? I disagree with you but I am very open to be proven wrong.

[Dick Allen]

If I'm KW, I'm dangling Alex Rios this winter. Maybe someone will bite and pay for the 2010 total numbers and his talent. .259 avg .301 OBP and an OPS under .700 the second half.

[Jordan4life_2007]

If I'm KW, I'm dangling Alex Rios this winter. Maybe someone will bite and pay for the 2010 total numbers and his talent. .259 avg .301 OBP and an OPS under .700 the second half.

 

No thanks. Rios has had a mediocre second half. But images of Mackowiak, Erstad, Terrero and Wise come to mind and I want to commit suicide. He's still a + fielder at a premium position and has a WAR of almost 4. I doubt we could land anybody comparable to Rios.

[greg775]

If I'm KW, I'm dangling Alex Rios this winter. Maybe someone will bite and pay for the 2010 total numbers and his talent. .259 avg .301 OBP and an OPS under .700 the second half.

 

I agree with you. If money is an object, then the Sox need that money.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I agree with you. If money is an object, then the Sox need that money.

 

Who's our CF?

[fathom]

Who's our CF?

 

Juan Pierre? BTW, did you see what I posted in the catch-all thread about Quentin being the worst defensively player in all of baseball in two different metrics?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Juan Pierre? BTW, did you see what I posted in the catch-all thread about Quentin being the worst defensively player in all of baseball in two different metrics?

 

Juan Pierre? You made me hate a guy that I already despised just a little bit more. And yes, I did see that post. That's one of the reasons I've become such a big proponent of Sabermetrics. They totally reinforce how bad CQ has been.

[BearingPro]

Why does this team need another starter? I count 6.

 

They absolutely need a closer. I'm not sure what to do about RF and 3b myself...3b at least has people on the way up, RF has a talented guy who seemingly has forgotten how to hit.

 

So, you are counting on "Bad Back" Garcia and "Detached Latissimus" Peavy???

 

Not only that, Floyd was bad this year and Danks inconsistent, while Buehrle was very average...

 

Sound strategy

 

[SoxAce]

If I'm KW, I'm dangling Alex Rios this winter. Maybe someone will bite and pay for the 2010 total numbers and his talent. .259 avg .301 OBP and an OPS under .700 the second half.

 

You already know I agree with you, but we are in the very minority group here.