The Official "Paul Konerko for MVP" Thread

[SoxAce]

So how is Cano more valuable than Konerko?? Without Konerko we're crap, without Cano the Yankees are still in the playoffs most likely.

 

Without Miguel Cabrera, the Tigers are fighting with the Pirates for the top pick in next year's draft.

[bigruss]

Without Miguel Cabrera, the Tigers are fighting with the Pirates for the top pick in next year's draft.

Exactly, making the playoffs doesnt show how much value a player added to the team.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

So how is Cano more valuable than Konerko?? Without Konerko we're crap, without Cano the Yankees are still in the playoffs most likely.

 

You see, but that's the whole thing about it. You don't KNOW the Yankees would still make the playoffs without Cano, just like you don't KNOW the White Sox would be crap without Konerko. But in the end, Cano's team is making the playoffs, so you can assume that he helped them get there. You can only assume that Paulie helped the Sox keep the division close until the final couple weeks of the season. But one of those guys is playing in October, and that's Cano.

 

And actually, if you want to use statistics, Cano has a 6.2 WAR, which means they would theoretically have 6 less wins without Cano. Take 6 wins away, and that leaves the Yankees only 1/2 game ahead of the Red Sox for 2nd place, and only .5 games ahead of the Red Sox and White Sox for the wild card. So in fact, without Cano they would be fighting for a playoff spot.

[bigruss]

You see, but that's the whole thing about it. You don't KNOW the Yankees would still make the playoffs without Cano, just like you don't KNOW the White Sox would be crap without Konerko. But in the end, Cano's team is making the playoffs, so you can assume that he helped them get there. You can only assume that Paulie helped the Sox keep the division close until the final couple weeks of the season. But one of those guys is playing in October, and that's Cano.

 

And actually, if you want to use statistics, Cano has a 6.2 WAR, which means they would theoretically have 6 less wins without Cano. Take 6 wins away, and that leaves the Yankees only 1/2 game ahead of the Red Sox for 2nd place, and only .5 games ahead of the Red Sox and White Sox for the wild card. So in fact, without Cano they would be fighting for a playoff spot.

Did you just prove my point? Without Cano the Yankees are stil leading the Wildcard, without Konerko the Sox are 13 games out.

 

So why exactly does it matter whether the team actually makes the playoffs?

 

(And Im not saying Konerko deserves it over Cano, I just dont think it should be contingent on playoffs).

[bigruss]

And if you dont know how well a team would perform with said player, than wouldnt the raw stats then be the best way to determine how much of an impact that player really was.

Edited September 15, 2010 by bigruss22

[Balta1701]

And if you dont know how well a team would perform with said player, than wouldnt the raw stats then be the best way to determine how much of an impact that player really was.

Then the problem you run into is one of positioning/defense as well.

[bigruss]

Then the problem you run into is one of positioning/defense as well.

That all ties into how much value does this player have, and if they are a stud defender than of course they bring more to the table. It's like does this person steal bases too, or can they make it home from second on a flare to the OF.

 

And you'll have that problem whether you think the playoffs ties into it or not.

Edited September 15, 2010 by bigruss22

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Did you just prove my point? Without Cano the Yankees are stil leading the Wildcard, without Konerko the Sox are 13 games out.

 

So why exactly does it matter whether the team actually makes the playoffs?

 

(And Im not saying Konerko deserves it over Cano, I just dont think it should be contingent on playoffs).

 

No, the point is right now they are a lock for the playoffs. But without Cano, they are barely in a playoff position, and fighting to make it. That's quite a difference. But whether the Sox are 7 games out or 13 games out doesn't really matter because either way they have almost no chance at the playoffs.

[Milkman delivers]

Like I already said, most of the arguing about MVP candidates stems from the phrasing itself. Just call it "Best Offensive Player" and the arguments drop a lot.

[bigruss]

No, the point is right now they are a lock for the playoffs. But without Cano, they are barely in a playoff position, and fighting to make it. That's quite a difference. But whether the Sox are 7 games out or 13 games out doesn't really matter because either way they have almost no chance at the playoffs.

Your comparing teams more than players then.

[thxfrthmmrs]

No, the point is right now they are a lock for the playoffs. But without Cano, they are barely in a playoff position, and fighting to make it. That's quite a difference. But whether the Sox are 7 games out or 13 games out doesn't really matter because either way they have almost no chance at the playoffs.

 

 

The thinking of MVP should come from a playoff team is really outdated. Same thinking that the Cy Young award should have league leading wins or close to it. It used to be that most Cy Young winnners are 20 game winners or close to it. But writers are speculating that parameters for the award are changing after Lincecum won it with 18 wins then 15 wins, and then Greinke won it with 16 wins. and this year, many feel that Felix hernandez is the leading candidate with 11 wins. Those players are elite pitchers, though they couldn't win more games because the offense the team assembles is not scoring runs.

 

A player really has no control over what the other players do. This isn't basketball where you can make your teammates better, it's really an individual award. If your teammates aren't performing well, your team won't make the playoffs despite how good you are.

 

If you really think about it, the term value only represent the quality a players brings to a team, i.e. WAR. If a player have a WAR of 8, that means he adds a value of 8 wins to the team, doesn't mean that his team will make the playoffs with those 8 wins the player adds, because his teammates flat out sucks. So why would would give an award to a player with a value of 6 wins, even if his team makes the playoffs? wouldn't you think that a player who brings 8 more wins to a team would be more valuable than a player who would win 6 more games for the team, regardless of playoff berth?

Edited September 15, 2010 by thxfrthmmrs

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

The thinking of MVP should come from a playoff team is really outdated. Same thinking that the Cy Young award should have league leading wins or close to it. It used to be that most Cy Young winnners are 20 game winners or close to it. But writers are speculating that parameters for the award are changing after Lincecum won it with 18 wins then 15 wins, and then Greinke won it with 16 wins. and this year, many feel that Felix hernandez is the leading candidate with 11 wins. Those players are elite pitchers, though they couldn't win more games because the offense the team assembles is not scoring runs.

 

A player really has no control over what the other players do. This isn't basketball where you can make your teammates better, it's really an individual award. If your teammates aren't performing well, your team won't make the playoffs despite how good you are.

 

If you really think about it, the term value only represent the quality a players brings to a team, i.e. WAR. If a player have a WAR of 8, that means he adds a value of 8 wins to the team, doesn't mean that his team will make the playoffs with those 8 wins the player adds, because his teammates flat out sucks. So why would would give an award to a player with a value of 6 wins, even if his team makes the playoffs? wouldn't you think that a player who brings 8 more wins to a team would be more valuable than a player who would win 6 more games for the team, regardless of playoff berth?

 

Cy Young is defined as the best pitcher in the league. Team performance doesn't matter. MVP is defined as the most valuable player in the league. Team performance SHOULD matter. Why is it that in the NFL the player that wins the MVP does not necessarily win the Offensive Player of the Year or the Defensive Player of the Year? This has happened the past 2 years now.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Cy Young is defined as the best pitcher in the league. Team performance doesn't matter. MVP is defined as the most valuable player in the league. Team performance SHOULD matter. Why is it that in the NFL the player that wins the MVP does not necessarily win the Offensive Player of the Year or the Defensive Player of the Year? This has happened the past 2 years now.

 

I don't have the information on top of my head, but I am pretty sure NFL MVPs have came from teams didn't make the playoffs before. and also, in NFL they emphasize playoff berths in the MVP award heavier because they already have an award designated for the best offensive player.

 

Ultimately, I think your argument boils down to, do you view the term VALUE as wins or playoff berth.

 

For me, i think the word value suggests nothing about making the playoffs, it only denotes the amount of wins you can bring to the team over a replacement player.

Edited September 15, 2010 by thxfrthmmrs

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I don't have the information on top of my head, but I am pretty sure NFL MVPs have came from teams didn't make the playoffs before. and also, in NFL they emphasize playoff berths in the MVP award heavier because they already have an award designated for the best offensive player.

 

Ultimately, I think your argument boils down to, do you view the term VALUE as wins or playoff berth.

 

For me, i think the word value suggests nothing about making the playoffs, it only denotes the amount of wins you can bring to the team over a replacement player.

 

Well, to each their own I guess, but I see the MVP as the player who is the most valuable to their team, and if your team didn't make the playoffs, then you couldn't have provided THAT much value to them.

[The Ginger Kid]

Well, to each their own I guess, but I see the MVP as the player who is the most valuable to their team, and if your team didn't make the playoffs, then you couldn't have provided THAT much value to them.

Why? Because you have a s***ty pitching staff, or everyone around you is crap?

Andre Dawson won it on a last place team. And he deserved it.

[bigruss]

Well, to each their own I guess, but I see the MVP as the player who is the most valuable to their team, and if your team didn't make the playoffs, then you couldn't have provided THAT much value to them.

Miggy just doesn't add much value to a team, I see ur point now.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Well, to each their own I guess, but I see the MVP as the player who is the most valuable to their team, and if your team didn't make the playoffs, then you couldn't have provided THAT much value to them.

 

 

an example here. so if you feel that Cano is a more deserving candidate than Konerko. What if Cano didn't have A-Rod on the team, and now A-Rod plays for the white sox now, and the sox made the playoffs with the addition of A-Rod. So what if Cano and Konerko posted the same number as they have right now, wouldn't they theoretically provided the same value? so why now would Konerko become more valuable due to the addition of A-Rod? Don't you think it's really unfair to those players if they put up those great great numbers, and their team would have made the playoffs if their GM had surrounded them with a great team?

[Milkman delivers]

The thinking of MVP should come from a playoff team is really outdated. Same thinking that the Cy Young award should have league leading wins or close to it. It used to be that most Cy Young winnners are 20 game winners or close to it. But writers are speculating that parameters for the award are changing after Lincecum won it with 18 wins then 15 wins, and then Greinke won it with 16 wins. and this year, many feel that Felix hernandez is the leading candidate with 11 wins. Those players are elite pitchers, though they couldn't win more games because the offense the team assembles is not scoring runs.

 

A player really has no control over what the other players do. This isn't basketball where you can make your teammates better, it's really an individual award. If your teammates aren't performing well, your team won't make the playoffs despite how good you are.

 

If you really think about it, the term value only represent the quality a players brings to a team, i.e. WAR. If a player have a WAR of 8, that means he adds a value of 8 wins to the team, doesn't mean that his team will make the playoffs with those 8 wins the player adds, because his teammates flat out sucks. So why would would give an award to a player with a value of 6 wins, even if his team makes the playoffs? wouldn't you think that a player who brings 8 more wins to a team would be more valuable than a player who would win 6 more games for the team, regardless of playoff berth?

 

I really like your last paragraph. It provides some insight and clarifies the issue well.

 

an example here. so if you feel that Cano is a more deserving candidate than Konerko. What if Cano didn't have A-Rod on the team, and now A-Rod plays for the white sox now, and the sox made the playoffs with the addition of A-Rod. So what if Cano and Konerko posted the same number as they have right now, wouldn't they theoretically provided the same value? so why now would Konerko become more valuable due to the addition of A-Rod? Don't you think it's really unfair to those players if they put up those great great numbers, and their team would have made the playoffs if their GM had surrounded them with a great team?

 

Well, that will probably happen in five years when he's washed up.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Milkman delivers

[Texsox]

To reject all players from non playoff rosters would mean that none of those players have any value. Once you accept that players have value for a team, then you have to accept that someone on that team could have the most value. It takes more than one guy to make the baseball playoffs. To suggest that a player who (to use an extreme example) bats .400 + 30-30 can't win the award because he team doesn't make the playoffs is silly.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Good thread, guys. But I will say if the MVP is going to go to a player from a non playoff team then it's Miguel Cabrera without hesitation for me. He's been better than Konerko at, well, everything.

[bigruss]

Good thread, guys. But I will say if the MVP is going to go to a player from a non playoff team then it's Miguel Cabrera without hesitation for me. He's been better than Konerko at, well, everything.

100% agreed, I just used Konerko as an example throughout my posts.

[MattZakrowski]

Good thread, guys. But I will say if the MVP is going to go to a player from a non playoff team then it's Miguel Cabrera without hesitation for me. He's been better than Konerko at, well, everything.

 

Not defense, but I agree with you still. That good of a bat.

[southsider2k5]

Well if Paulie can do something to finish, he has his signature ESPN moment with getting hit in the mouth with a pitch in the first inning, and then going yard with a massive fat lip in his next AB.

[LittleHurt05]

Good thread, guys. But I will say if the MVP is going to go to a player from a non playoff team then it's Miguel Cabrera without hesitation for me. He's been better than Konerko at, well, everything offensively.

 

Fixed.

[elrockinMT]

KW and the Sox management better do everything they can to sign Paulie to another contract with the team. Failure to do so is tantamount to treason