Kenny & Ozzie at it again

[greg775]

Another thing about ego.

 

KW spends a whole article talking about going to the Raiders. His ego is enormous as well.

Ozzie should win this battle. Game, set, match, Ozzie.

[hogan873]

Ha, most of "the city" agrees with me, not Saxtalk.

Read that story over and over how much Guillen is beloved. Ozzie rocks.

 

Also, nice way for Kenny to throw in his own ego about how are he is working. Poor, poor KW who put this piece of s*** second half product on the field. Hope you can sleep a few hours, Kenny, staying up all night.

 

"No, not for me," Williams said. "I won't rule that out one day. My competitiveness to win a world championship in Chicago has not waned one bit. The weariness from lack of sleep and trying to figure out how to right the ship, that's exhausting, yes. But I'm not tired of my job here."

I don't think that most of the city agrees with you. Nor do I think the majority of the city wants Ozzie gone. The majority of the city probably doesn't care. I do think that SoxTalk is a decent glimpse at Sox fans as a whole. There are those who love him, those who want him gone, and those that are luke warm on him.

 

And as far as KW putting out a POS second half team, that's not a true statement. The team really didn't look a lot different between the 1st and 2nd halves. What happened was what almost always happens: The team played poorly in the second half. I'm not saying it was all Ozzie's fault, but it definitely wasn't all KW's fault.

[TheBigHurt]

How many of those points are skewed by your only seeing the situation when it goes wrong?

 

How many of those points are common sense even to a non-professional baseball player? Seems like you're saying it's unfair to criticize Ozzie for the IDIOTIC decisions he makes but we should praise him when he simply makes the right decision. If the best you can say about a manager is that he made the right decision not pitching to a guy who's hitting .400 or so against us when there's a base open and 2 outs... then your manager just sucks. I'm not saying we shouldn't be proud of him when he makes the right decisions... but we're talking NO-BRAINERS here that Ozzie consistently ignores/f***s up; not occasionally, not even a good amount... but ON A REGULAR BASIS.

[TheBigHurt]

1.) The article called him a beloved figure in the city of Chicago. He's a veteran trusted reporter. And you say I have the blinders on??

The guy with the pen in his hand backs me.

 

2.) That story has BS all over it. He'd have one of his people call the Cubs to say he's interested.

 

He was beloved because of 2005 and that's it.

 

So if one article agrees with your point of view, you don't have the blinders on, you're just right. But if it disagrees with you it's, BS... am I understanding you correctly? Man, I really am trying not to insult you, but with every blind post you make it gets harder and harder not to. I'm just trying to understand where in the world you get your sense of logic (or your lack of logic, actually) from...

[Kyyle23]

1.) The article called him a beloved figure in the city of Chicago. He's a veteran trusted reporter. And you say I have the blinders on??

The guy with the pen in his hand backs me.

 

2.) That story has BS all over it. He'd have one of his people call the Cubs to say he's interested.

 

 

oooooooh i see. must be 100 percent true since Cowley said it and he has a pen in his hand. Say, did you ever hear about this veteran trusted reporter getting banned from voting on the end of season rewards because he deliberately voted wrong so that the award winners would be different? If he is so trusted, why did his own peers suspend him? strange.

 

 

I now have a pen in my hand. whatever I say is now true. I am going to write "The Sox will sign Albert Pujols" and it must be true now

 

edit: I just looked at Joe Cowleys wikipedia page and found this "On 10/09/2008 Cowley and wife Brent Lillibridge married in middle earth in front of members of the Pittsburgh Steelers."

[RockRaines]

How many of those points are common sense even to a non-professional baseball player? Seems like you're saying it's unfair to criticize Ozzie for the IDIOTIC decisions he makes but we should praise him when he simply makes the right decision. If the best you can say about a manager is that he made the right decision not pitching to a guy who's hitting .400 or so against us when there's a base open and 2 outs... then your manager just sucks. I'm not saying we shouldn't be proud of him when he makes the right decisions... but we're talking NO-BRAINERS here that Ozzie consistently ignores/f***s up; not occasionally, not even a good amount... but ON A REGULAR BASIS.

No, I'm saying that perception is not always reality which John once again pointed out about two posts above when all you can remember is the bad decisions without actually taking a look at the entire picture. There are alot of people on this site that expect the Sox and Ozzie to be correct 100% of the time, and if there is a mistake made, then it lessens the other positive attributes and activities of that player or coach. If Ozzie is correct about 75 percent of the time in his decisions, especially with the pitching staff, is that a good ratio or not? Thats what I am pointing out. You could easily take Ozzie's name out of the discussion and just use manager A as an example and I think it would be just as relevant.

 

The question is, is there a manager in baseball that makes the correct in game decision with his lineup and his pitching staff 100% of the time. And if not, what is the perception of his success rate by his own fan base. It applies for players as well. When a poster says "he mad the wrong decision in this game in this moment and therefore he does it all the time and its retarded" you can guarantee that the perception of the actual performance has been influenced by the emotional attachment to those instances instead of actually taking a step back and analyzing the entire body of work both positive and negative.

 

And before someone idiotically responds calling me a fanboy, I am not referring to Ozzie specifically, and frankly I dont give a rats ass if he stays, so dont try it.

[Real]

My guess is Ozzie will not return as the sox manager after his contract expires, with a decent chance of him not coaching this team in 2011

 

And this makes me really happy, he can take cooper with him

[Jerksticks]

So if the pitching staff and next year's new offensive pieces lead us to a title in 2011, do you still want Ozzie gone? Would we have won despite Ozzie?

[TheBigHurt]

No, I'm saying that perception is not always reality which John once again pointed out about two posts above when all you can remember is the bad decisions without actually taking a look at the entire picture. There are alot of people on this site that expect the Sox and Ozzie to be correct 100% of the time, and if there is a mistake made, then it lessens the other positive attributes and activities of that player or coach. If Ozzie is correct about 75 percent of the time in his decisions, especially with the pitching staff, is that a good ratio or not? Thats what I am pointing out. You could easily take Ozzie's name out of the discussion and just use manager A as an example and I think it would be just as relevant.

 

The question is, is there a manager in baseball that makes the correct in game decision with his lineup and his pitching staff 100% of the time. And if not, what is the perception of his success rate by his own fan base. It applies for players as well. When a poster says "he mad the wrong decision in this game in this moment and therefore he does it all the time and its retarded" you can guarantee that the perception of the actual performance has been influenced by the emotional attachment to those instances instead of actually taking a step back and analyzing the entire body of work both positive and negative.

 

And before someone idiotically responds calling me a fanboy, I am not referring to Ozzie specifically, and frankly I dont give a rats ass if he stays, so dont try it.

 

Being right 100% of the time has absolutely NOTHING to do with it, if you're talking about results. I don't expect every decision to lead to success. It has to do with making the right statistical and strategic decision, which Ozzie botches carelessly far too often to ignore. If it fails, it fails (maybe this is where I and others are different because I'm gonna b**** constantly about what happens as long as the manager made the correct decision for the situation). But at least you make the CORRECT decision. Ozzie entirely too often does not do that.

 

 

So if the pitching staff and next year's new offensive pieces lead us to a title in 2011, do you still want Ozzie gone? Would we have won despite Ozzie?

 

If the team wins a title in 2011 (not happening) it will be because the team just clicks. Unless Ozzie gets his head out of his ass and starts making smart (even simple) decisions from a logical statistical standpoint, I still wish him to be gone.

Edited September 23, 2010 by TheBigHurt

[Real]

Another thing about ego.

 

KW spends a whole article talking about going to the Raiders. His ego is enormous as well.

Ozzie should win this battle. Game, set, match, Ozzie.

 

Ozzie already lost the battle. Read the article more carefully and what Kenny is saying. The Score just explained for a good ten minutes or more on how Ozzie's over aggressive stance on a new contract has backfired and Kenny AND Jerry are prepared to let him walk

[TheBigHurt]

Ozzie already lost the battle. Read the article more carefully and what Kenny is saying. The Score just explained for a good ten minutes or more on how Ozzie's over aggressive stance on a new contract has backfired and Kenny AND Jerry are prepared to let him walk

 

Even though I generally like the warm part of Ozzie's personality, I can almost guarantee you if he gets fired, the venom fired between KW and Frank will look like child's play in comparison.

[Real]

So if the pitching staff and next year's new offensive pieces lead us to a title in 2011, do you still want Ozzie gone? Would we have won despite Ozzie?

 

I'm not willing to risk that because a new manager depending on who it is, could turn this team around immediately whereas with this coaching staff what you've seen over the last five years is enough of a sample size to know what you'll get.

[RockRaines]

Being right 100% of the time has absolutely NOTHING to do with it, if you're talking about results. I don't expect every decision to lead to success. It has to do with making the right statistical and strategic decision, which Ozzie botches carelessly far too often to ignore. If it fails, it fails (maybe this is where I and others are different because I'm gonna b**** constantly about what happens as long as the manager made the correct decision for the situation). But at least you make the CORRECT decision. Ozzie entirely too often does not do that.

How often does he not make the correct decision disregarding the results? DO you know? What would be acceptable? Would you prefer a manager that always goes with the stats? These are honest questions.

[TheBigHurt]

How often does he not make the correct decision disregarding the results? DO you know? What would be acceptable? Would you prefer a manager that always goes with the stats? These are honest questions.

 

Rock, do I really need to try to break this down? Do we REALLY need to do a instinct/statistics debate for simple s*** like pitching to Morneau in a 1 run game with 2 outs and a base open? That's the type of s*** I'm talking about. I don't care what guts say, some s*** you just have to think fundamentally about. There's a fine line between going with instinct and being flat out stupid/ignorant.

 

As for how often, he does s*** like THAT very regularly.

[shago]

And Reinsdorf knows who the White Sox face of the franchise is and that's Ozzie (Whether fans like it or not). No way he lets him go, esp in light of weak attendance figures this yr

Think they learned that a line-up including starters like Omar Vizquel, Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones Mark Kotsay and Mark Teahen doesn't excite people all that much. Ozzie, don't let the door hit you on the a** on your way out. Good riddance you self-absorbed wind bag. Take your adult ADD elsewhere...

[whitesoxfan99]

He was not a terrible hitter. He swings at everything much like Tank. He was a decent hitter and a good baseball player. He's also a damn good manager.

Whatever team he goes to I will start to follow and root for No. 2 behind the Sox. Guillen is very likeable.

 

I don't know why I'm even bothering since you clearly have no clue what you are talking about but what made Ozzie not a terrible hitter? He didn't hit for average. He didn't walk. He had no power whatsoever.

[RockRaines]

Rock, do I really need to try to break this down? Do we REALLY need to do a instinct/statistics debate for simple s*** like pitching to Morneau in a 1 run game with 2 outs and a base open? That's the type of s*** I'm talking about. I don't care what guts say, some s*** you just have to think fundamentally about. There's a fine line between going with instinct and being flat out stupid/ignorant.

 

As for how often, he does s*** like THAT very regularly.

Once again that is one example of a decision out of many during a game. The question is, what is it that you actually want from a manager? What would be your sucecss criteria? You understand saying "a guy that doesnt do dumb s*** like this one time something happened bad" isnt actually explaining your viewpoint. Either is "he does THAT regularly". How regularly? How many times has that happened? If you can remember each time, then it really didnt happen that often, its just that you remembered a particular instance because it upset you personally.

 

Personally, I dont think a manager has all that much influence on a game, in fact the good ones you never notice. I am of the frame of mind that the players do the actual work while the manager takes the blame for when they dont.

 

 

[Jerksticks]

I caught CTL the other day and they were saying that about 15 teams are going to be looking for managers this offseason. We shouldn't throw our hat in that jungle. We have a really good team next year, for the most part, and I want the players focused on 1 thing only. I say let this managerial musical chair dust settle and reevaluate the situation after next season. We just need a few upgrades to the lineup.

 

I too feel like there is a lot of emotion behind many opinions here; that's never the time to make decisions.

[Jerksticks]

I don't know why I'm even bothering since you clearly have no clue what you are talking about but what made Ozzie not a terrible hitter? He didn't hit for average. He didn't walk. He had no power whatsoever.

 

He played shortstop. How many good shortstops were there in the AL then? I honestly don't know how his stats ranked among shortstops.

 

What I do know is that people generally liked him. I remember growing up and people were super excited about Ozzie Guillen's Restaurant that was supposed to open in Orland Park. For years it was rumored to be opening but never did. On a somewhat similar note, did anybody ever eat at the Charley Horse (I think it's Sam McGuires now) in Orland Park? You could order the Carlton Fisk n Chips.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I got this from a radio guy who comes in my business. He said, he ran into Ozzie's son at the East Bank Club. Ozzie's son said that if the Sox don't sign Oz to an longer deal, that Oz will call Jim Hendry personally, to try to manage the Cubs.

Then Ozzie would be in breach of contract and could/should be sued. The jerk has another year on his contract and the Sox hold a second option year on him but he's talking like if he doesn't get an extension he is walking. Yeah, the Sox could let him out of his contract but it's up to them not Ozzie. And if out of respect for Ozzie the Sox do him a favor and let him out of his contactual obligations and he tries to get Hendry to sign him just to spite the Sox, he'd just be showing everyone what a jagoff he really is.

 

But I doubt Hendry would have Ozzie near the top of his list anyway.

Edited September 23, 2010 by South Side Fireworks Man

[TheBigHurt]

Once again that is one example of a decision out of many during a game. The question is, what is it that you actually want from a manager? What would be your sucecss criteria? You understand saying "a guy that doesnt do dumb s*** like this one time something happened bad" isnt actually explaining your viewpoint. Either is "he does THAT regularly". How regularly? How many times has that happened? If you can remember each time, then it really didnt happen that often, its just that you remembered a particular instance because it upset you personally.

 

Personally, I dont think a manager has all that much influence on a game, in fact the good ones you never notice. I am of the frame of mind that the players do the actual work while the manager takes the blame for when they dont.

 

Yes, but how often do we see Ozzie get out-managed? How often in baseball are you really gonna see something that actually makes you IMPRESSED? I'm talking ALL managers here. I agree with you on that a manager doesn't have THAT much influence; a lot of managers just have to make the correct fundamental decisions and sit back if their team is efficient. Ozzie too often ignores statistics/common sense, and not to a subtle point, but RADICALLY, and that's the thing that makes his in-game managing so terrible. Doing the lefty-righty thing when doing it the other way around would benefit more because said hitter is batting just over a buck against? That's just plain stupidity.

 

Again, why are you asking me all these questions you already know the answers to? This happens REGULARLY. I seriously can't believe you are attempting to divert this conversation and basically defend Ozzie on this. The types of examples I'm giving are prime examples of prime ignorance and stupidity.

 

 

Rock, GMAFB with the "Can you remember every instance" nonsense, because nonsense is all it is. It happens far too often for me to possibly remember every occurence, but I have OFTEN mentioned DOZENS of examples in single posts; I'm not doing it again for your sense of security. If you watch enough games and you don't see this you're simply not paying attention, bottom line. Putting his team in opposite situations of those they should be facing, abusing the left-righty matchup illogically, leaving in pitchers who are 120+ in pitch count and hanging every pitch (see Gavin Floyd), not putting on guys who clearly should be, walking guys who aren't a threat, etc.

 

If you really feel the need for someone to list every single recorded occurrence of this to convince you then you're being silly, for a lack of better word that won't be breaking any forum rules. That's just ridiculous.

[Balta1701]

Even though I generally like the warm part of Ozzie's personality, I can almost guarantee you if he gets fired, the venom fired between KW and Frank will look like child's play in comparison.

Well...worth thinking about...a manager and his former GM ripping each other in public is going to hurt their chances of finding a new job a lot more than a player and a GM ripping each other. Managers and GM's are supposed to keep their mouths shut and look out for their bosses and players.

 

If you were a GM and you saw Ozzie get fired and then go off ripping KW to pieces...would you have any urge to hire that man yourself, so that he could air all of your dirty laundry in the future?

[TheBigHurt]

Well...worth thinking about...a manager and his former GM ripping each other in public is going to hurt their chances of finding a new job a lot more than a player and a GM ripping each other. Managers and GM's are supposed to keep their mouths shut and look out for their bosses and players.

 

If you were a GM and you saw Ozzie get fired and then go off ripping KW to pieces...would you have any urge to hire that man yourself, so that he could air all of your dirty laundry in the future?

 

Oh, I agree... I'm just saying that's not the way it always turned out. Look what KW said directly to the media about Frank. Whether it's just Ozzie or KW actually fires back, I'd be genuinely surprised if Ozzie doesn't fire venom at KW and the organization if he gets canned after this season. I think it's obvious Ozzie can be hotheaded enough to do such a thing despite looking for a job elsewhere.

Edited September 23, 2010 by TheBigHurt

[Balta1701]

Oh, I agree... I'm just saying that's not the way it always turned out. Look what KW said directly to the media about Frank. Whether it's just Ozzie or KW actually fires back, I'd be genuinely surprised if Ozzie doesn't fire venom at KW and the organization if he gets canned after this season. I think it's obvious Ozzie can be hotheaded enough to do such a thing despite looking for a job elsewhere.

Yeah...but with Frank, no one's going to really care if he rips the team or if the team rips him. If you're a free agent looking at a team...and the Sox offer you the best contract/best place to play combo, you're going to the Sox. Conversely, if you're a hitter and you can still hit, even if you ripped your last GM, someone's going to hire you to hit. But if you're a managerial candidate and you just ripped your last GM...there are other managerial options.

 

I think Ozzie could well decide to go off on the team...but that would tell me he's not nearly as "Street smart" as he's been played off to be, because that could easily be a ticket to being someone else's 1st base coach for the rest of his career.

[The Critic]

He played shortstop. How many good shortstops were there in the AL then? I honestly don't know how his stats ranked among shortstops.

In the mid-80's, I remember these guys as the better SS in the AL:

Robin Yount

Cal Ripken

Alan Trammell

Tony Fernandez

Rick Burleson

Alfredo Griffin