Kenny & Ozzie at it again

[StrangeSox]

1.) He was a damn popular shortstop here as well. Both papers called him the face of the White Sox and one of the most popular figures in Chicago. Slam dunk for greg.

2.) Both papers said it. Read their takes on it.

 

greg, I must implore you again to go take a class in logic. In the meantime, please look up what "appeal to authority" is.

[lostfan]

Holy s***. Thanks for putting that into perspective for me well enough for me to really grasp the concept. WOW...

 

As far as Ozzie being likable (the only point in the quote I felt was even worth anything)... I dunno. On the fence there. I think he USED to be... I dunno about now. Once you start s***ting on your fans, I don't think "likable" is the word I'd use anymore.

In defense of Ozzie's hitting stats he played during the time before the steroid era really took hold and the SS didn't usually put up good offensive numbers, they'd hit 8th or 9th and were there for their defense.

[NorthSideSox72]

Ripken? He won the 2 gold gloves right after Ozzie won his...and was only stopped from winning more by the reign of golden terror promulgated by one Omar Vizquel.

 

 

Just for conversation, fielding percentaes during each guy's Gold Glove years:

Trammel .980, .983, .979, .980

Yount .969

Guillen .977

Griffin .960

Fernandez .987, .979, .981, .992

Ripken .986, .984

 

I realize other factors go into this, such as range, arm strength, etc., but the %s suggest that Ozzie wasn't light years ahead of anyone except maybe Yount and Griffin. However, their bats may have made them more valuable overall than Ozzie.

I liked Ozzie as a player, but I never thought I was seeing a game-changing defensive player.

 

FPct was always high for Rip, but his range was bad, he got to far, far fewer plays than his peers. Ozzie was a better defensive SS than those guys, though maybe not Fernandez. Ripken won a gold glove because he was Ripken.

 

[StrangeSox]

FPct was always high for Rip, but his range was bad, he got to far, far fewer plays than his peers. Ozzie was a better defensive SS than those guys, though maybe not Fernandez. Ripken won a gold glove because he was Ripken.

 

NSS, are you actually implying that players win awards not on merits but on name recognition? For shame, sir, for shame!

[Jordan4life_2007]

Shame on greg for forcing excellent posters to break down Ozzie's overall ineptitude as a player. Even his annoying as f*** kids knows he sucked.

[lostfan]

He was a decent player overall but he was epic horses*** as a hitter.

[TheBigHurt]

Shame on greg for forcing excellent posters to break down Ozzie's overall ineptitude as a player. Even his annoying as f*** kids knows he sucked.

 

[Dick Allen]

From the White Sox perspective, why would they give Ozzie an extension now when they control him for 2 seasons? I think KW did the smart thing as stayed above it all and quoted JR as being on his side. Obviously this is a childish fued that needs to stop one way or another. Telling Ozzie to go make a deal with another team and the Sox will discuss compensation with that team is the way I would go. Pinella netted the Mariners Randy Winn. The Marlins are always looking to dump some youngster about to get paid closer to what they are worth. Its a match made in heaven.

 

I wonder if Oney does Ozzie's prep work for him. One day Ozzie is talking about a team that dropped 6 games in the standings in a week as a team that doesn't quit and how proud he is. The next, he's looking for an extension.

 

If he didn't like his last extension, again, I wonder why he signed it.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Dick Allen

[TheBigHurt]

This thread is just pure win. Should go into the Soxtalk Hall of Fame when it is put to rest.

[Dick Allen]

I am all over the place on this one though. I think Ozzie won't be back. I think he will definitely be back 5 minutes later. I now think the Sox will semi-cave and exercise the option so Ozzie will basically have a 2 year deal with no extension yet. Its a very slippery slope. Giving Ozzie anything after crying to the media is like giving in to a crying 3 year old or giving your dog some steak from the dinner table. It will mean Ozzie isn't done crying to the media.

 

If I was the Sox, I would tell Ozzie is option would also be exercised automatically if Oney stopped on Twitter or Facebook or any of that crap. Ozzie has used the "he's an adult" crap all too much. Physically, Oney is an adult, mentally he's a child. Ozzie can get him to stop by threatening to stop the cash flow. Oney's little gig on Sunday night at the Score isn't exactly a 6 or 7 figure deal.

[nitetrain8601]

From the White Sox perspective, why would they give Ozzie an extension now when they control him for 2 seasons? I think KW did the smart thing as stayed above it all and quoted JR as being on his side. Obviously this is a childish fued that needs to stop one way or another. Telling Ozzie to go make a deal with another team and the Sox will discuss compensation with that team is the way I would go. Pinella netted the Mariners Randy Winn. The Marlins are always looking to dump some youngster about to get paid closer to what they are worth. Its a match made in heaven.

 

I wonder if Oney does Ozzie's prep work for him. One day Ozzie is talking about a team that dropped 6 games in the standings in a week as a team that doesn't quit and how proud he is. The next, he's looking for an extension.

 

If he didn't like his last extension, again, I wonder why he signed it.

 

Good post. I wonder where it'll go. Honestly, I think both KW and Ozzie end up staying.

[southsider2k5]

Rock, do I really need to try to break this down? Do we REALLY need to do a instinct/statistics debate for simple s*** like pitching to Morneau in a 1 run game with 2 outs and a base open? That's the type of s*** I'm talking about. I don't care what guts say, some s*** you just have to think fundamentally about. There's a fine line between going with instinct and being flat out stupid/ignorant.

 

As for how often, he does s*** like THAT very regularly.

 

Gardenhire did the same thing in letting Alexei Ramirez hit with two outs and runners on second and third off of a lefty, with Rios on deck who had K'd both times off of Liriano. Ramirez hit a two run single to tie the ballgame.

[TheBigHurt]

Gardenhire did the same thing in letting Alexei Ramirez hit with two outs and runners on second and third off of a lefty, with Rios on deck who had K'd both times off of Liriano. Ramirez hit a two run single to tie the ballgame.

 

1 example, nice!

 

In all seriousness, for all I know Gardenhire is worse (although I can't imagine), I don't know. But I could care less. He's not our manager.

[southsider2k5]

1 example, nice!

 

In all seriousness, for all I know Gardenhire is worse (although I can't imagine), I don't know. But I could care less. He's not our manager.

 

You finally admitted it. You don't know. Congrats.

[Mr. Wedmesday]

He was a decent player overall but he was epic horses*** as a hitter.

 

 

I never understood all the "blind" love he got as a player. He was never my favorite shortstop because even back then Ozzie was always about Ozzie. Always seemed to think striking out was hysterically funny.

 

What hasn't changed is that his opinion of himself is always much higher than he deserves. And he still needs to be the center of attention, even if it hurts the team's reputation or chances on the field.

 

As a manager, 2005 was obviously his best year. It also was the last year his mouth and attitude didn't eclipse his performance as manager. He was actually pretty likable that year.

 

Winning the "precious" warped his mind worse than Frodo.....

[greg775]

But you have to understand that you are partially blind in this conversation as well. Look at what you just said. You give ZERO credit to Ozzie for the moves he made in 2005 including those in the playoffs, yet you very easily point out his negative influence on the team. You made my points into a defending Ozzie position which you probably will again even when I clearly pointed out that I was talking in generalities about people's opinions being influenced by outside factors. There is more that just Greg on one extreme side of the discussion, there are the haters on the other side which have a very narrow view of the truth as well.

 

At least I finally see where you are coming from as you put it clearly in your last line. That is all you really needed to say in this thread instead of insulting Greg and typing long responses to my posts about defending Ozzie when i clearly stated I wasnt. It makes alot of sense to me that you want a more logical/statistical influenced manager who is more comfortable playing the game by the book instead of feel. That would be the logical direction to go after getting rid of a pure feel manager. Its like replacing a players coach with a hard-nosed defensive minded guy because its a change. But I'm not sure the pointed insults at people helped you make your point.

 

 

And back to 2005 for the last time. They didnt win in spite of Ozzie at all. That was clearly one of his best managerial performances as he played his cards almost perfectly from beginning to end, especially in the playoffs. Putting El Duque in against Boston, Bobby in early against Bagwell, leaving Cotts in to strike out the side, finding Bobby immediately after his blown save, leaving the pitchers in in LA, Geoff Blum, Willie Harris, aligning the rotation so Freddy pitched on the road, Dye in the 3-hole. He made alot of top notch moves that postseason and leading up to it, I am not sure how you can ever state the opposite.

 

 

Shame on greg for forcing excellent posters to break down Ozzie's overall ineptitude as a player. Even his annoying as f*** kids knows he sucked.

 

Do you guys even read the newspapers?

You make it sound as if I'm the only person out there who thinks Ozzie rocks.

Both columnists take my position.

I'm not saying everything in print matters, but you act like I am some lone soldier in support of Ozzie.

 

I will just say I agree with Rock's post. It was beautiful.

 

And you guys (in my opinion) are nuts if you think Ozzie Guillen wasn't a great baseball shortstop. Or a damn good one.

What do you guys want in all your baseball players? Pujols at every position?

How many years did Ozzie start for a big league team??? He was damn good.

I said he swung at everything and that hurt him overall. Hope Tank gets that under control. Cause you have to draw some walks.

Edited September 24, 2010 by greg775

[witesoxfan]

A baseball manager has so little influence on the actual game itself that it's not really worth arguing about. You obviously have to put your team in the absolute best position you can to win the ballgame (but I honestly believe that 25% of the people on here can do that, and this is a very narrow segment of all baseball fans, so you are probably looking at hundreds of thousands of people that can do that).

 

Being a manager in baseball is about having the respect of your players and keeping them as motivated as physically possible for 162 games, and that's where those hundreds of thousands of people qualified to manage a baseball team fall by the way side. I would say that Ozzie once had that, within about his first 2-4 years of managing, but it has really fallen by the wayside in the past 2 years, as the Sox have gone from having small blow ups in the second half but still recovering to completely falling apart in late August or early September, and I really don't think that the talent level is the reason for it. On top of that, this feud that he and Williams have reportedly had over the duration of the season can't be a good influence on the locker room, whether or not it is full of veterans that understand the philosophical differences those two men have.

 

I think by the White Sox saying that "it's up to Ozzie," they are really saying "we want him to go, but we aren't going to fire him and pay him the rest of his contract, and so if he doesn't find something else, we are obligated by law to pay him and he can manage this team" and I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever.

[greg775]

Good post Soxfan.

If he does leave I will say he dug his own grave (unless this is his master plan) by responding to reporters' questions about his contract and future in Chicago.

Most dull managers would have shut up and said, "I have a contract and that is that."

But Ozzie being Ozzie went off.

So if Jerry doesn't bite and give him an extension, he burned his own bridge. He can't expect to do something like that, when like one of the columnists said, he'd have freaked had one of his players taken a contract issue public at this stage of the season.

 

 

To those of you who say I never criticize Ozzie. ....

I repeat again ... Ozzie Guillen was wrong in not wanting Thome. He was wrong in wanting Kotsay and playing Kotsay too much.

He was wrong in not going against Kenny and simply never using Linebrink even though the Sox pay Linebrink.

And he was wrong in wanting Juan Pierre and going small ball in a home run hitter's park.

This all has to do with Ozzie the wannabe GM. I said he should be stripped of all say in personnel and manage the team.

I still don't know why I waste so much time backing a guy who makes millions of dollars a year, will continue to make millions next year whether in Florida NY or on TV and I am stuck in the middle class. This rich man sure doesn't need my support and frankly doesn't need a job unless he's squandered all his millions.

Edited September 24, 2010 by greg775

[knightni]

Ozzie used to piss me off as a player because he had the hitting selectivity of Alexei Ramirez and the power potential of Juan Pierre.

[greg775]

Ozzie used to piss me off as a player because he had the hitting selectivity of Alexei Ramirez and the power potential of Juan Pierre.

 

He swung at everything, but I disagree on the pop in his bat. He had more pop than Pierre by far.

[TheBigHurt]

Do you guys even read the newspapers?

You make it sound as if I'm the only person out there who thinks Ozzie rocks.

Both columnists take my position.

I'm not saying everything in print matters, but you act like I am some lone soldier in support of Ozzie.

 

Do YOU ever STOP reading newspapers and actually form a coherent thought BY YOURSELF???

 

This is why someone is telling you that you need a course in logic. Seriously, two people agree with you? That's your argument??? I'm sorry, but your lack of any sort of logic LITERALLY makes you sound like a 9 year-old.

 

BACK UP YOUR OWN OPINION!!! Stop throwing out empty statements because other people say things. I haven't even heard ONE thing from you about WHY you like Ozzie. I haven't heard ONE valid point to support ANYTHING you've ever said on this subject or any other. I'm sorry to be calling you out like this, but I'm going to be frank; your opinion is 100% worthless at this point because you spit in the face of facts and shoot down ideas simply because you like Ozzie... and don't even have a legitimate reason for it or for ANYTHING you say.

 

 

I'm starting to think you're an android. You appear to have NO thought process whatsoever. And if you are going to complain that I'm being mean and insulting, then prove me wrong and MAKE A VALID POINT OF SOME KIND to back up SOMETHING you say. PLEASE.

 

 

Jesus CHRIST...

Edited September 24, 2010 by TheBigHurt

[SoxAce]

Do YOU ever STOP reading newspapers and actually form a coherent thought BY YOURSELF???

 

This is why someone is telling you that you need a course in logic. Seriously, two people agree with you? That's your argument??? I'm sorry, but your lack of any sort of logic LITERALLY makes you sound like a 9 year-old.

 

BACK UP YOUR OWN OPINION!!! Stop throwing out empty statements because other people say things. I haven't even heard ONE thing from you about WHY you like Ozzie. I haven't heard ONE valid point to support ANYTHING you've ever said on this subject or any other. I'm sorry to be calling you out like this, but I'm going to be frank; your opinion is 100% worthless at this point because you spit in the face of facts and shoot down ideas simply because you like Ozzie... and don't even have a legitimate reason for it or for ANYTHING you say.

 

 

I'm starting to think you're an android. You appear to have NO thought process whatsoever. And if you are going to complain that I'm being mean and insulting, then prove me wrong and MAKE A VALID POINT OF SOME KIND to back up SOMETHING you say. PLEASE.

 

 

Jesus CHRIST...

 

I think you should tell him how you really feel....

[whitesoxfan101]

Great post Rock. He led that team to the championship, and he deserves a ton of credit for it. The reason I said 2005 shouldn't be taken into consideration is because any grace period needs to have been erased by now.

 

Exactly. The 2005 team in and of itself was awesome. Ozzie Guillen's managerial performance in 2005 was also awesome. I just think both were flukes, and the grace period for them is over.

[TheBigHurt]

I think you should tell him how you really feel....

 

I did!

[knightni]

He swung at everything, but I disagree on the pop in his bat. He had more pop than Pierre by far.

Uh no.

 

Ozzie's career high is 4 home runs in a season and he managed a whole 28 in his 16 year career

 

Pierre has a high of 3 home runs and 14 in 11 years.

 

That's hardly more pop "by far."