Vote fraud

[EvilMonkey]

So here is one to start.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/23...ethevote-texas/

 

Most of the findings focused on a group called Houston Votes, a voter registration group headed by Steve Caddle, who also works for the Service Employees International Union. Among the findings were that only 1,793 of the 25,000 registrations the group submitted appeared to be valid. The other registrations included one of a woman who registered six times in the same day; registrations of non-citizens; so many applications from one Houston Voters collector in one day that it was deemed to be beyond human capability; and 1,597 registrations that named the same person multiple times, often with different signatures.

[Balta1701]

And out of those 23,000 phony registrations...23,000 will be thrown out, 0 people will show up to vote, 0 false votes will be cast, and Fox will make every one of its viewers think there's a giant conspiracy.

 

Just like every other time.

[lostfan]

Voter registration fraud ≠ voter fraud. I could register my penis to vote but if I pulled it out at the school I vote on election day and try to make it vote I'd still get arrested and probably have to register as a sex offender.

Edited September 26, 2010 by lostfan

[EvilMonkey]

Voter registration fraud ≠ voter fraud. I could register my penis to vote but if I pulled it out at the school I vote on election day and try to make it vote I'd still get arrested and probably have to register as a sex offender.

But register 'Mary Jones', and have anyone show up saying they are 'Mary Jones' and vote (since we can't ask for ID because somehow that would be racist) and you have a vote that should not be. Or have nobody show up and vote but yet rig the voting machines for a few hundred extra votes, or a few thousand, and as long as you have less votes than registered voters, it usually gets ignored.

 

Sometimes the reason people register these non-existent people is that they get paid per registration. With this group that wasn't the case, so can one of you who denies that this means anything tell me why the hell they do it? There has to be a reason, even if it is a stupid one.

[Texsox]

But register 'Mary Jones', and have anyone show up saying they are 'Mary Jones' and vote (since we can't ask for ID because somehow that would be racist) and you have a vote that should not be. Or have nobody show up and vote but yet rig the voting machines for a few hundred extra votes, or a few thousand, and as long as you have less votes than registered voters, it usually gets ignored.

 

Sometimes the reason people register these non-existent people is that they get paid per registration. With this group that wasn't the case, so can one of you who denies that this means anything tell me why the hell they do it? There has to be a reason, even if it is a stupid one.

 

 

First off the system worked and the illegal registrations were thrown out. Secondly, people work for more than just money. Volunteers are sometimes "good feeling" whores. The attention they get from everyone when they bring in 500 names or whatever can be addicting. They may be trying to impress Jodie Foster, or the hot guy in the next cubical. The manager may be trying to pad his resume and get a paying gig with a major donor, or just use it to say he managed a voter registration drive that brought in 25,000 voters. There are so many reasons I'd get tired typing.

[EvilMonkey]

First off the system worked and the illegal registrations were thrown out. Secondly, people work for more than just money. Volunteers are sometimes "good feeling" whores. The attention they get from everyone when they bring in 500 names or whatever can be addicting. They may be trying to impress Jodie Foster, or the hot guy in the next cubical. The manager may be trying to pad his resume and get a paying gig with a major donor, or just use it to say he managed a voter registration drive that brought in 25,000 voters. There are so many reasons I'd get tired typing.

Do you guys ever read the article? The SYSTEM didn't work, they were registered, it was an outside group looking at registrations that caught them all. The system failed. Just like the system has failed to remove dead people or people who have moved. Somehow there had to be an advantage, either real or perceived, to have all these extra people registered, andf to be in no hurry to remove the names that don't belong.

[Texsox]

Do you guys ever read the article? The SYSTEM didn't work, they were registered, it was an outside group looking at registrations that caught them all. The system failed. Just like the system has failed to remove dead people or people who have moved. Somehow there had to be an advantage, either real or perceived, to have all these extra people registered, andf to be in no hurry to remove the names that don't belong.

 

 

I'm sorry, I missed where they actually voted?

[Texsox]

At the heart of our current system is the desire to remove as many barriers as possible to voting. Yet still, only half or less actually vote. After a hundred years of a system that turned away voters with poll taxes, and similar, perhaps we did swing the pendulum too far the other way.

[southsider2k5]

First off the system worked and the illegal registrations were thrown out. Secondly, people work for more than just money. Volunteers are sometimes "good feeling" whores. The attention they get from everyone when they bring in 500 names or whatever can be addicting. They may be trying to impress Jodie Foster, or the hot guy in the next cubical. The manager may be trying to pad his resume and get a paying gig with a major donor, or just use it to say he managed a voter registration drive that brought in 25,000 voters. There are so many reasons I'd get tired typing.

 

So should we throw out attempting anything charges? If a guy takes a gun into a bank and doesn't get away with any money, should he walk?

[Texsox]

So should we throw out attempting anything charges? If a guy takes a gun into a bank and doesn't get away with any money, should he walk?

 

 

No we shouldn't. They should be prosecuted. And, as I mentioned in a follow up post, perhaps we need to add some tougher checks before these people wind up on the voter rolls.

 

Who to prosecute will be the challenge. We don't prosecute a store clerk for accepting a counterfeit bill, so why should we prosecute a volunteer voter registration clerk if someone misrepresents themselves?

[mr_genius]

Do you guys ever read the article? The SYSTEM didn't work, they were registered, it was an outside group looking at registrations that caught them all. The system failed. Just like the system has failed to remove dead people or people who have moved. Somehow there had to be an advantage, either real or perceived, to have all these extra people registered, andf to be in no hurry to remove the names that don't belong.

 

agreed. that many false registrations would lend me to believe there could be an intention to commit voter fraud. merely ignoring something like this isn't a good idea.

[Texsox]

agreed. that many false registrations would lend me to believe there could be an intention to commit voter fraud. merely ignoring something like this isn't a good idea.

 

I look at some of the events that they set these up at and wonder if any signatures are legit. I've seen voter drives at concerts with half drunk people signing applications. I remember one time down in the city where they were getting signatures on some petition to get something on the ballot. You had to be a Cook County resident to sign but I got so pissed that every block someone was pushing the damn thing in my face, I started signing. I must have signed the damn thing twelve or fifteen times. I guess I should have been charged with fraud.

[mr_genius]

I look at some of the events that they set these up at and wonder if any signatures are legit. I've seen voter drives at concerts with half drunk people signing applications. I remember one time down in the city where they were getting signatures on some petition to get something on the ballot. You had to be a Cook County resident to sign but I got so pissed that every block someone was pushing the damn thing in my face, I started signing. I must have signed the damn thing twelve or fifteen times. I guess I should have been charged with fraud.

 

not really, but if you turn in 25,000 false registrations I want them to be disqualified.

[southsider2k5]

I look at some of the events that they set these up at and wonder if any signatures are legit. I've seen voter drives at concerts with half drunk people signing applications. I remember one time down in the city where they were getting signatures on some petition to get something on the ballot. You had to be a Cook County resident to sign but I got so pissed that every block someone was pushing the damn thing in my face, I started signing. I must have signed the damn thing twelve or fifteen times. I guess I should have been charged with fraud.

 

That's just the problem. There is no reason for you, or them, to not be committing fraud.

[lostfan]

not really, but if you turn in 25,000 false registrations I want them to be disqualified.

If any organization turns in 25,000 registrations at once then they were probably all flagged as fraudulent already and put in one group.

[EvilMonkey]

I'm sorry, I missed where they actually voted?

No, but you missed that they were actually registered to vote. They were not caught until an outside group reviewed registrations. Whoever certified them failed. Whoever submitted them failed. So at that point, the system failed.

 

perhaps you also missed this lilttle tidbit at the end.

On the morning of Aug. 27, a three-alarm fire destroyed almost all of Harris County’s voting machines, throwing the upcoming Nov. 2 election into turmoil. While the cause wasn’t determined, the $40 million blaze, according to press reports, means election officials will be focused on creating a whole new voting system in six weeks. Just how they do it will determine how vulnerable the process becomes.

 

gee, massive voter registration of questionable people, vote machines destroyed, what could happen? A new batch of machines rushed in with 'bugs' in them to record some extra votes for all these extra registered people? A manual system of checking people since you have no ID requirement there? Sounds a little crazy, but desperate people (and stupid people) do desperate things.

[StrangeSox]

If any organization turns in 25,000 registrations at once then they were probably all flagged as fraudulent already and put in one group.

 

Right, which is exactly what would happen with ACORN. They were required by law to submit all registrations, but they'd flag a bunch they were suspicious of.

[Balta1701]

gee, massive voter registration of questionable people, vote machines destroyed, what could happen? A new batch of machines rushed in with 'bugs' in them to record some extra votes for all these extra registered people? A manual system of checking people since you have no ID requirement there? Sounds a little crazy, but desperate people (and stupid people) do desperate things.

Yes, it sounds a little crazy. Frankly, more than a little.

 

If nothing else...you just illustrated the extent at which one would have to go to actually successfully commit voter fraud. You'd have to not only file those applications, make an organized group of people show up knowing that they're putting themselves at risk to go to jail for no obvious benefit to themselves, somehow guarantee that those people actually vote for the right person once they're in the voting booth, and then make sure that they're not caught at any of the redundant steps.

 

You not only need to bypass the voting machines, you need to convince hundreds of people to commit a crime that they could go to jail for without having them benefit at all.

 

Do you see how difficult "vote fraud" actually is based solely on your own example?

[EvilMonkey]

Yes, it sounds a little crazy. Frankly, more than a little.

 

If nothing else...you just illustrated the extent at which one would have to go to actually successfully commit voter fraud. You'd have to not only file those applications, make an organized group of people show up knowing that they're putting themselves at risk to go to jail for no obvious benefit to themselves, somehow guarantee that those people actually vote for the right person once they're in the voting booth, and then make sure that they're not caught at any of the redundant steps.

 

You not only need to bypass the voting machines, you need to convince hundreds of people to commit a crime that they could go to jail for without having them benefit at all.

 

Do you see how difficult "vote fraud" actually is based solely on your own example?

NO, you only need to do one of those things after the applications were filed. Get people to go vote under someone else's name, OR have the machined rigged to register votes for the people who are registered but dont exist. With a fire conveniently happening just beforehand, not so far fetched. And the rigging doesn't have to be for the Senate races or the biggies, but maybe a governor, or county president. Positions like that matter even more on the local levels. WHile I am taking this to the extreme for a point, I cannot understand your utter willingness to just brush aside all the false registrations, voter intimidations, dead people on voter rolls.etc. Something is goig on, yet you put your head in the sand. The sky may not be falling, but you can't tell from under the ground.

 

I edited because I forgot about the other way this works. Mai-in ballots. No need to have tons of people, justget all these fake 'people' to request an absentee ballot and you can have but one person filling them all out. Not too hard to find one or two people willing to do that crap, as there are stories every election about it being done. Get 25,000 non-people voting, if 10% get thru, it could swing an election.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Alpha Dog

[southsider2k5]

Yes, it sounds a little crazy. Frankly, more than a little.

 

If nothing else...you just illustrated the extent at which one would have to go to actually successfully commit voter fraud. You'd have to not only file those applications, make an organized group of people show up knowing that they're putting themselves at risk to go to jail for no obvious benefit to themselves, somehow guarantee that those people actually vote for the right person once they're in the voting booth, and then make sure that they're not caught at any of the redundant steps.

 

You not only need to bypass the voting machines, you need to convince hundreds of people to commit a crime that they could go to jail for without having them benefit at all.

 

Do you see how difficult "vote fraud" actually is based solely on your own example?

 

After viewing all of the if you elect a Republican, all of these bad things will happen that pretty much negates the "no benefit" point, at least as it applies to the left wing, who coincidentally is leading the charge in most of these illegal registrations. It would be pretty easy to convince people that they could lose their jobs, programs, or any other perks they get if they don't do this. Viewing the commercials on Social Security running in my area targeting seniors, and then thinking how easily many seniors are taken in for scams, it isn't hard to envision multiple scenarios of people being willing to commit voter fraud to "protect themselves."

[Balta1701]

NO, you only need to do one of those things after the applications were filed. Get people to go vote under someone else's name, OR have the machined rigged to register votes for the people who are registered but dont exist. With a fire conveniently happening just beforehand, not so far fetched. And the rigging doesn't have to be for the Senate races or the biggies, but maybe a governor, or county president. Positions like that matter even more on the local levels. WHile I am taking this to the extreme for a point, I cannot understand your utter willingness to just brush aside all the false registrations, voter intimidations, dead people on voter rolls.etc. Something is goig on, yet you put your head in the sand. The sky may not be falling, but you can't tell from under the ground.

 

I edited because I forgot about the other way this works. Mai-in ballots. No need to have tons of people, justget all these fake 'people' to request an absentee ballot and you can have but one person filling them all out. Not too hard to find one or two people willing to do that crap, as there are stories every election about it being done. Get 25,000 non-people voting, if 10% get thru, it could swing an election.

I'm willing to brush aside voter intimidations? I'm willing to brush aside issues with voting machines? I think that my side has had issues with those for decades now. You just happen to not be concerned about the same ones I am. For example...well funded and organized scare tactics trying to convince people not to vote even if they're legally allowed to might be considered to be problematic, since they actually have a habit of convincing people to not actually vote. For example, these are running right now in Wisconsin, run by a Tea Party affiliated group.

 

Rigged voting machines have been a worry of mine for years. But of course...you need to take a moment and think about who has the actual access to do the rigging. The only people with legitimate access to the software are the companies that write the software and produce the machines. This, for example, is why crying about Diebold machines is a cause-celebre in the far, far reaches of the left, to the point that a few people think Diebold stole Ohio for Bush in 2004. The right solution for this is voting machines that provide a printout of your vote that can be double-checked afterwards in the event of a recount. For some reason though, that has never happened.

 

On top of that...you express concern about a few hundred people voting illegally, when it's quite well known that hundreds of thousands of people are prevented from voting yearly because of a lack of accessible machines in poor or minority rich counties.

 

I'm willing to brush aside 1 case of voter intimidation because it's not a coherent plan/conspiracy, there were zero complaints of actual voter intimidation, and the evil conspiracy is nonsesnse when given a bit of thought. I'm willing to brush aside issues of people setting fire to voting machines to bring in their own machines...because I think it's just silly to imagine that could actually happen; you'd need dozens of people to plan and keep silent something like that, because you'd have to control the code and the results the whole way through.

 

And most importantly...I'm willing to ignore these claims of massive potential voter fraud on the grounds that it doesn't happen. There are, as far as I can tell, only a handful of schemes that even get to court, and frankly, they're typically easy to catch these days thanks to the details of electronic records that are kept. But if you wanted to propose getting rid of absentee ballots to avoid your plan...well, you might have a problem on that one because Absentee ballots typically skew Republican, so that's a worry that actually hurts your side. But even as supposedly easy as it might be to do that...it's remarkable that hundreds of millions of votes can be cast every couple years and we wind up talking about legitimate fraud in the numbers of a few hundred votes.

 

There are at best a handful of cases every decade of legitimate fraud, and they're remarkably easy to catch so far. It's clearly against the law, and there's nothing suggesting to me that we need more stringent laws to prevent something that you can't even prove is more than an incredibly rare problem that gets caught most times it gets tried.

[Balta1701]

After viewing all of the if you elect a Republican, all of these bad things will happen that pretty much negates the "no benefit" point, at least as it applies to the left wing, who coincidentally is leading the charge in most of these illegal registrations. It would be pretty easy to convince people that they could lose their jobs, programs, or any other perks they get if they don't do this. Viewing the commercials on Social Security running in my area targeting seniors, and then thinking how easily many seniors are taken in for scams, it isn't hard to envision multiple scenarios of people being willing to commit voter fraud to "protect themselves."

Then of course there's the real key...you also need to convince these hundreds of people to do it and then have no one talk about it. Because the moment a couple of those seniors tell their kids about the person who threatened to take away their Social Security if they didn't vote a certain way...the jig is up.

 

Your example should make it just as obvious how hard it is to make any of these schemes actually happen. In an intimidation scheme like that...you need hundreds of people doing it to even make a small difference in a local race, and on top of that, you need no one to talk. because people go to jail.

[southsider2k5]

Then of course there's the real key...you also need to convince these hundreds of people to do it and then have no one talk about it. Because the moment a couple of those seniors tell their kids about the person who threatened to take away their Social Security if they didn't vote a certain way...the jig is up.

 

Your example should make it just as obvious how hard it is to make any of these schemes actually happen. In an intimidation scheme like that...you need hundreds of people doing it to even make a small difference in a local race, and on top of that, you need no one to talk. because people go to jail.

 

That's just it, no one gets caught. No one goes to jail. The left wing explains it away like it doesn't matter, and that we shouldn't worry about it... mostly because they are at the center of it.

[Balta1701]

That's just it, no one gets caught. No one goes to jail. The left wing explains it away like it doesn't matter, and that we shouldn't worry about it... mostly because they are at the center of it.

Either that...or because it rarely happens.

 

I enjoyed this Brennan Center bit for the actual numbers.

[EvilMonkey]

I'm willing to brush aside voter intimidations? I'm willing to brush aside issues with voting machines? I think that my side has had issues with those for decades now. You just happen to not be concerned about the same ones I am. For example...well funded and organized scare tactics trying to convince people not to vote even if they're legally allowed to might be considered to be problematic, since they actually have a habit of convincing people to not actually vote. For example, these are running right now in Wisconsin, run by a Tea Party affiliated group.

 

Rigged voting machines have been a worry of mine for years. But of course...you need to take a moment and think about who has the actual access to do the rigging. The only people with legitimate access to the software are the companies that write the software and produce the machines. This, for example, is why crying about Diebold machines is a cause-celebre in the far, far reaches of the left, to the point that a few people think Diebold stole Ohio for Bush in 2004. The right solution for this is voting machines that provide a printout of your vote that can be double-checked afterwards in the event of a recount. For some reason though, that has never happened.

 

On top of that...you express concern about a few hundred people voting illegally, when it's quite well known that hundreds of thousands of people are prevented from voting yearly because of a lack of accessible machines in poor or minority rich counties.

 

I'm willing to brush aside 1 case of voter intimidation because it's not a coherent plan/conspiracy, there were zero complaints of actual voter intimidation, and the evil conspiracy is nonsesnse when given a bit of thought. I'm willing to brush aside issues of people setting fire to voting machines to bring in their own machines...because I think it's just silly to imagine that could actually happen; you'd need dozens of people to plan and keep silent something like that, because you'd have to control the code and the results the whole way through.

 

And most importantly...I'm willing to ignore these claims of massive potential voter fraud on the grounds that it doesn't happen. There are, as far as I can tell, only a handful of schemes that even get to court, and frankly, they're typically easy to catch these days thanks to the details of electronic records that are kept. But if you wanted to propose getting rid of absentee ballots to avoid your plan...well, you might have a problem on that one because Absentee ballots typically skew Republican, so that's a worry that actually hurts your side. But even as supposedly easy as it might be to do that...it's remarkable that hundreds of millions of votes can be cast every couple years and we wind up talking about legitimate fraud in the numbers of a few hundred votes.

 

There are at best a handful of cases every decade of legitimate fraud, and they're remarkably easy to catch so far. It's clearly against the law, and there's nothing suggesting to me that we need more stringent laws to prevent something that you can't even prove is more than an incredibly rare problem that gets caught most times it gets tried.

I really have to ask, just what is so wrong about that billboard?