joeynach Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 (edited) I was thinking about how bad or how extreme did some of our players really get off their norms when they played the Twins this year. Obviously I cant explain why some of our players, good players, just flat out sucked against the Twins or when we really needed them to do what they do, but this is what I found. #1: Juan Pierre - He didnt really fail us against the Twins, he failed us down the stretch in General. We all know he got off to a poor start in April, but his Sept was almost just as bad. In Sept he hit .223/.279/.268 which well below his 2010 and Career Averages. Why did he go so bad in Sept after such a strong July and August? Was he tired? Was he hurt? Did he just choke when the pressure was on? #2: Bobby Jenks - In 5.2 Innings pitched this year against Minnesota he was 0-1 with a 6.35 ERA, 2.12 WHIP, and a .360 BAA. For his career against Minnesota (including this year) he has a 3.57 ERA, 1.41 ERA, and .266 BAA. Why so pathetic against the Twins? Choke under pressure? Mental? #3: Gavin Flloyd - As good as he was for us for a large part of the season he was downright awful against the Twins. In 4 starts against the Twins this year he lost all 4 games with an 8.06 ERA, 2.10 WHIP, and .370 BAA. Cant beat Twins, they we aren't catching the Twins. #4: Matt Thornton - Similar to Gavin what happened to his abilities and performance against the Twins. Most baseball people will tell you, without the ability to have shut down guys late in games you can basically forget it. Thornton appeared in 7 games against the Twins, went 0-1, and posted a 9.53 ERA, 1.76 ERA, and .261 BAA. #5: JJ Putz - Same thing here with Putz, he just flat out sucked against the Twins. For as good of a season as he had (2.83 ERA), he appeared in 5 games vs the Twins and posted a 6.75 ERA, 2.50 ERA, and .389 BAA. #6: Sergio Santos - If you havent picked up on the theme our shut down bullpen basically blew it when we needed them the most. Santos as impressive as he was in his first year as a reliever couldnt get the Twins out. He posted a 4.50 ERA, 3.75 WHIP, and a .476 BAA against the Twins. OUCH!! My point is not to b**** and moan its to point out some facts and ask the question, how or why did this happen, and can or will it happen again? Is this just a symptom of bad luck where as far as playing the Twins was concerned anything that could go wrong did go wrong? Did Juan Pierre break down in Sept due to age and games played? Is there something the sox can or should do differently, especially with our pitchers in order to avoid this type of debacle. And finally is this what sports announcers and radio host call getting in your head? Were the twins in the sox pitchers heads? Ever player on this list we are going to need in 2011 in order to make the playoffs, but we wont have a chance in hell again if our pieces fall apart when the pressure is on. Edited October 4, 2010 by joeynach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingandalongonetoleft Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 I think one of the lasting memories of this season for me will be Liriano taking care of Quentin and Konerko with the bases loaded to end the inning. It was his "wtf slider" that resolved his matters IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 (edited) QUOTE (joeynach @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 12:49 AM) I was thinking about how bad or how extreme did some of our players really get off their norms when they played the Twins this year. Obviously I cant explain why some of our players, good players, just flat out sucked against the Twins or when we really needed them to do what they do, but this is what I found. #1: Juan Pierre - He didnt really fail us against the Twins, he failed us down the stretch in General. We all know he got off to a poor start in April, but his Sept was almost just as bad. In Sept he hit .223/.279/.268 which well below his 2010 and Career Averages. Why did he go so bad in Sept after such a strong July and August? Was he tired? Was he hurt? Did he just choke when the pressure was on? #2: Bobby Jenks - In 5.2 Innings pitched this year against Minnesota he was 0-1 with a 6.35 ERA, 2.12 WHIP, and a .360 BAA. For his career against Minnesota (including this year) he has a 3.57 ERA, 1.41 ERA, and .266 BAA. Why so pathetic against the Twins? Choke under pressure? Mental? #3: Gavin Flloyd - As good as he was for us for a large part of the season he was downright awful against the Twins. In 4 starts against the Twins this year he lost all 4 games with an 8.06 ERA, 2.10 WHIP, and .370 BAA. Cant beat Twins, they we aren't catching the Twins. #4: Matt Thornton - Similar to Gavin what happened to his abilities and performance against the Twins. Most baseball people will tell you, without the ability to have shut down guys late in games you can basically forget it. Thornton appeared in 7 games against the Twins, went 0-1, and posted a 9.53 ERA, 1.76 ERA, and .261 BAA. #5: JJ Putz - Same thing here with Putz, he just flat out sucked against the Twins. For as good of a season as he had (2.83 ERA), he appeared in 5 games vs the Twins and posted a 6.75 ERA, 2.50 ERA, and .389 BAA. #6: Sergio Santos - If you havent picked up on the theme our shut down bullpen basically blew it when we needed them the most. Santos as impressive as he was in his first year as a reliever couldnt get the Twins out. He posted a 4.50 ERA, 3.75 WHIP, and a .476 BAA against the Twins. OUCH!! My point is not to b**** and moan its to point out some facts and ask the question, how or why did this happen, and can or will it happen again? Is this just a symptom of bad luck where as far as playing the Twins was concerned anything that could go wrong did go wrong? Did Juan Pierre break down in Sept due to age and games played? Is there something the sox can or should do differently, especially with our pitchers in order to avoid this type of debacle. And finally is this what sports announcers and radio host call getting in your head? Were the twins in the sox pitchers heads? Ever player on this list we are going to need in 2011 in order to make the playoffs, but we wont have a chance in hell again if our pieces fall apart when the pressure is on. actually, 3 of those guys you mentioned are bullpen buys. IIRC, all of Thorton, Putz and Santos got rocked in the Twins series back in September. The bullpen just had a terrible series vs Twins. They were pretty solid against them up to that point. You also have to keep in mind that the Sox were fading a bit prior to that series, so i think it's a matter of bad momentum or the pen simply running out of gas. If you look at it, some players just generally performs poorly vs certain teams, and some guys excels against certain teams. You can say that just about any player. So i don't see this as anything significant. In the end, I'd say that Twins just somehow finds a way to beat us. Edited October 4, 2010 by thxfrthmmrs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 12:57 AM) I think one of the lasting memories of this season for me will be Liriano taking care of Quentin and Konerko with the bases loaded to end the inning. It was his "wtf slider" that resolved his matters IIRC. that was Crain in relieve of Liriano striking out both Konerko and Manny I think. That was brutal. Really made the last White Sox fan jump off the Manny bandwagon afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 The Twins are just better than us. /thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 I enjoy making rash and vague judgments within small sample sizes too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 We stank against the entire central division, not just the Twins. That's why we are watching the playoffs and not playing in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaus kinski Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 The manager failed us too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 An individual who really failed us in the clutch vs the Twins was Konerko. I believe there were 5 instances in the 9th inning or later vs Twins where he failed in a crucial situation with numerous runners on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingandalongonetoleft Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 12:39 AM) that was Crain in relieve of Liriano striking out both Konerko and Manny I think. That was brutal. Really made the last White Sox fan jump off the Manny bandwagon afterwards. No, I think the instance you're referring to may have happened again during a later game, but this slider that Liriano threw to the both of them ended up nearly behind their calves and they were both taking rips at, and Paulie was finished off in 3 pitches to end the threat. Manny wasn't here yet. I'm not faulting you though, it's really easy to get your bases loaded with one or none out and the heart of the order due up against the Twins failures mixed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingandalongonetoleft Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 QUOTE (klaus kinski @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 07:24 AM) The manager failed us too No, the guys playing the game failed us, and if a manager, hitting coach, or pitching coach had any significant role in it then it was the general manager who failed because his 25 man roster lacked balls and a spine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 You win or LOSE as a team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSoxFan Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 01:39 AM) that was Crain in relieve of Liriano striking out both Konerko and Manny I think. That was brutal. Really made the last White Sox fan jump off the Manny bandwagon afterwards. Yes. I was at that game, and when that happened, you knew the game was over and probably the season too. If I had to pick one moment. And strangely, even though it was the seventh or eighth inning, people just started streaming out of the stadium right then and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrlesque Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 QUOTE (joeynach @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 12:49 AM) I was thinking about how bad or how extreme did some of our players really get off their norms when they played the Twins this year. Obviously I cant explain why some of our players, good players, just flat out sucked against the Twins or when we really needed them to do what they do, but this is what I found. #1: Juan Pierre - He didnt really fail us against the Twins, he failed us down the stretch in General. We all know he got off to a poor start in April, but his Sept was almost just as bad. In Sept he hit .223/.279/.268 which well below his 2010 and Career Averages. Why did he go so bad in Sept after such a strong July and August? Was he tired? Was he hurt? Did he just choke when the pressure was on? #2: Bobby Jenks - In 5.2 Innings pitched this year against Minnesota he was 0-1 with a 6.35 ERA, 2.12 WHIP, and a .360 BAA. For his career against Minnesota (including this year) he has a 3.57 ERA, 1.41 ERA, and .266 BAA. Why so pathetic against the Twins? Choke under pressure? Mental? #3: Gavin Flloyd - As good as he was for us for a large part of the season he was downright awful against the Twins. In 4 starts against the Twins this year he lost all 4 games with an 8.06 ERA, 2.10 WHIP, and .370 BAA. Cant beat Twins, they we aren't catching the Twins. #4: Matt Thornton - Similar to Gavin what happened to his abilities and performance against the Twins. Most baseball people will tell you, without the ability to have shut down guys late in games you can basically forget it. Thornton appeared in 7 games against the Twins, went 0-1, and posted a 9.53 ERA, 1.76 ERA, and .261 BAA. #5: JJ Putz - Same thing here with Putz, he just flat out sucked against the Twins. For as good of a season as he had (2.83 ERA), he appeared in 5 games vs the Twins and posted a 6.75 ERA, 2.50 ERA, and .389 BAA. #6: Sergio Santos - If you havent picked up on the theme our shut down bullpen basically blew it when we needed them the most. Santos as impressive as he was in his first year as a reliever couldnt get the Twins out. He posted a 4.50 ERA, 3.75 WHIP, and a .476 BAA against the Twins. OUCH!! My point is not to b**** and moan its to point out some facts and ask the question, how or why did this happen, and can or will it happen again? Is this just a symptom of bad luck where as far as playing the Twins was concerned anything that could go wrong did go wrong? Did Juan Pierre break down in Sept due to age and games played? Is there something the sox can or should do differently, especially with our pitchers in order to avoid this type of debacle. And finally is this what sports announcers and radio host call getting in your head? Were the twins in the sox pitchers heads? Ever player on this list we are going to need in 2011 in order to make the playoffs, but we wont have a chance in hell again if our pieces fall apart when the pressure is on. I think small sample size plays a role in a lot of that, and injuries didn't help Thornton and Putz. But I will say there is something "off" about Gavin when he faces the Twins. He is just completely horrible against them. Does he tip his pitches? Does he choke under pressure? Have then seem him too often? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeynach Posted October 4, 2010 Author Share Posted October 4, 2010 QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 01:34 AM) actually, 3 of those guys you mentioned are bullpen buys. IIRC, all of Thorton, Putz and Santos got rocked in the Twins series back in September. The bullpen just had a terrible series vs Twins. They were pretty solid against them up to that point. You also have to keep in mind that the Sox were fading a bit prior to that series, so i think it's a matter of bad momentum or the pen simply running out of gas. If you look at it, some players just generally performs poorly vs certain teams, and some guys excels against certain teams. You can say that just about any player. So i don't see this as anything significant. In the end, I'd say that Twins just somehow finds a way to beat us. I bring up luck because yes bullpens and players can "run out of gas" and yes they can wear down a bit in the 2nd half. So if the computerized schedule for next year has us playing the twins 12 times before the ASB and not 12 times after like this year do things turn out differently cuz our pitchers face them in more games when they are "fresh and healthy" then. Is this what we call luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allsox Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 01:28 PM) An individual who really failed us in the clutch vs the Twins was Konerko. I believe there were 5 instances in the 9th inning or later vs Twins where he failed in a crucial situation with numerous runners on. This. From my count, the Sox loaded the bases against the Twins 7 times with less than 2 out and on those occasions, they scored only 1 run. That was because AJ grounded into a double play with nobody out. Paulie struck out 3 times on those situations so..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 QUOTE (Allsox @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 08:20 PM) This. From my count, the Sox loaded the bases against the Twins 7 times with less than 2 out and on those occasions, they scored only 1 run. That was because AJ grounded into a double play with nobody out. Paulie struck out 3 times on those situations so..... And hit into a double play in the Thome game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 08:48 AM) No, the guys playing the game failed us, and if a manager, hitting coach, or pitching coach had any significant role in it then it was the general manager who failed because his 25 man roster lacked balls and a spine. What if your manager lacks balls and a spine and likes to slurp your chief rival? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingandalongonetoleft Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 He can scribble love poems about the Twins on lineup cards for all I care. I'm not a subscriber to the theory that quotes by the manager printed in the sports section or the (admittedly delirious) ramblings of the tv play by play man have a direct effect on whether or not your hitters can hit their pitchers and your pitchers can be effective against their hitters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeynach Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 QUOTE (Allsox @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 03:20 PM) This. From my count, the Sox loaded the bases against the Twins 7 times with less than 2 out and on those occasions, they scored only 1 run. That was because AJ grounded into a double play with nobody out. Paulie struck out 3 times on those situations so..... Nerves? Pressing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 QUOTE (joeynach @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 08:17 PM) Nerves? Pressing? No. No. Small sample size. Seriously, 3 at-bats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeynach Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 10:18 PM) No. No. Small sample size. Seriously, 3 at-bats. Could be, but still the three most important at bats of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 (edited) We ended up winning 88 games with a team wide slump to start the year, Vizquel and Kotsay as regulars for a good majority of the season, and guys like Lucas Harrell, Carlos Torres, and Tony Pena making starts for us.. Im not disappointed with this season nor do I think anyone needs to be fired.. im confident KW is going to correct the issues with the DH and what not in the offseason.. We didn't take care of business against Cleveland or Minnesota this year.. there's your 6 games right there.. it also didn't help that Minnesota was one of the best teams in baseball for the 2nd half, but that's not even in our control.. Edited October 5, 2010 by T R U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 (edited) QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 09:54 AM) You win or LOSE as a team I agree 100%. The White Sox failed when it counted against the Twins, and when they played in Baltimore, and for the first two months on the season... I'd be willing to bet that just about every player failed at a crucial (or at least important) moment sometime during the season. You can look at specific moments and say that Konerko failed here and Jenks failed here and Quentin failed here. But the long and the short of it is that the team failed to win the division because of a poor start, their inability to beat teams within the division, and their inability to play well against the team that mattered the most...the Twins. Edited October 5, 2010 by pittshoganerkoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Oct 4, 2010 -> 08:48 AM) No, the guys playing the game failed us, and if a manager, hitting coach, or pitching coach had any significant role in it then it was the general manager who failed because his 25 man roster lacked balls and a spine. Wow, no blame whatsoever for the manager? I mean, if they're that much of a non-factor, why even have them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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