Rick Hahn

[IamtheHBOMB]

DEE-TROIT BASKETBALL!

 

I love that two girls one cup made it into a thread about Rick Hahn.

[Balta1701]

I'll laugh if Hudson ends up like all the other great cheap prospects of the Sox such as Reed and McCarthy. I've never seen a guy so overvalued in my life. I get the feeling that people would take "6 cheap years of Dan Hudson" over 2 years of Doc Halladay because he was cheaper.

Did this post just compare Edwin Jackson with Roy Halladay?

[BigSqwert]

Did this post just compare Edwin Jackson with Roy Halladay?

No

[Milkman delivers]

Ugh, I was really hoping for some good discussion. Since I last checked the forum about 12 hours ago, there have been about 8 new posts. Depressing time of the sports year.

[nitetrain8601]

When there are 25 players on a roster, not every one can be paid $20 million.

 

And not everyone is. Heck, wasn't Jon Garland making around 10 million when contracts were given out like Donuts at an AA meeting? Jackson has more potential and his best season overall has been as good if not better than Garland's best season.

 

Ahahahaha. LOL. That's hilarious. That's almost as delusional as somebody claiming Ben Gordon is the equal to Brandon Roy. Oh wait......

Except, I didn't try to make an argument using contracts. I actually brought stats to the table in which no one really proved otherwise. And that was before last season. I digress with basketball talk in the baseball forum.

 

Did this post just compare Edwin Jackson with Roy Halladay?

 

It did not.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Except, I didn't try to make an argument using contracts. I actually brought stats to the table in which no one really proved otherwise. And that was before last season. I digress with basketball talk in the baseball forum.

 

You made a ridiculous claim that some would take 6 cheap years of Hudson over the best pitcher of the last 10 years. I don't get what's so hard to understand. Does baseball have a cap? No. But every team not named the Yankees, and to a lesser degree the Cubs, Red Sox and Mets, have a budget. A budget that they HAVE to stick to. We've got over 50+ million committed to next year's rotation on a team with a 100 million dollar payroll, give or take a few million. Throw in Rios, who's overpaid, and you're talking 66 million to all of 6 players. Throw in arbitration raises to Danks, CQ and Jenks (Jenks better not be back), and that number gets higher. As of right now, we've got no 1B, C and DH. And no ready replacements in our pathetic system. It made no sense to trade our top pitching prospect, a guy that dominated the minors for over a year and a half, for a guy that's been nothing but mediocre outside of 1 half in 2009, that's due almost 9 million next year and set to become a FA and has an agent we refuse to deal with. It's not about overrating Hudson and thinking he's the next Lincecum. But you have to be able to filter some cheap/controllable talent onto your roster every now and then (again, unless you're the Yankees). Kenny has become his own worst enemy.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Jordan4life

[bigruss]

You made a ridiculous claim that some would take 6 cheap years of Hudson over the best pitcher of the last 10 years. I don't get what's so hard to understand. Does baseball have a cap? No. But every team not named the Yankees, and to a lesser degree the Cubs, Red Sox and Mets, have a budget. A budget that they HAVE to stick to. We've got over 50+ million committed to next year's rotation on a team with a 100 million dollar payroll, give or take a few million. Throw in Rios, who's overpaid, and you're talking 66 million to all of 6 players. Throw in arbitration raises to Danks, CQ and Jenks (Jenks better not be back), and that number gets higher. As of right now, we've got no 1B, C and DH. And no ready replacements in our pathetic system. It made no sense to trade our top pitching prospect, a guy that dominated the minors for over a year and a half, for a guy that's been nothing but mediocre outside of 1 half in 2009, that's due almost 9 million next year and set to become a FA and has an agent we refuse to deal with. It's not about overrating Hudson and thinking he's the next Lincecum. But you have to be able to filter some cheap/controllable talent onto your roster every now and then (again, unless you're the Yankees). Kenny has become his own worst enemy.

 

I find it funny that posters who look at Hudson and point out the risk of a prospect succeeding but then they avoid the fact that Jackson had sucked throughout his career, at every stop he was BAD for an extended period of time and there is absolutely no guarantee that he was more of a safe bet than Hudson.

[witesoxfan]

Even the Yankees will bring up young players through their system as they go. I think quite a bit of their bullpen is home grown, Philip Hughes, Robinson Cano, and Brett Gardner are there too.

 

I think it would be smart for about the next 2-5 years for the team to cut spending on the MLB team by about $5-8 million and use that money on amateur players and finding ways to develop them into quality MLB players. The Sox haven't drafted and developed a star player in a really long time (Beckham could certainly get there, but he is definitely not a star player at this juncture).

[bigruss]

Even the Yankees will bring up young players through their system as they go. I think quite a bit of their bullpen is home grown, Philip Hughes, Robinson Cano, and Brett Gardner are there too.

 

I think it would be smart for about the next 2-5 years for the team to cut spending on the MLB team by about $5-8 million and use that money on amateur players and finding ways to develop them into quality MLB players. The Sox haven't drafted and developed a star player in a really long time (Beckham could certainly get there, but he is definitely not a star player at this juncture).

I brought that up a few months ago and got slammed on here for that.

 

The Sox have been drafting much better recently, but they need to invest more in not only the draft but in development too. An international presence would be nice too (not just Cuba).

[Harry Chappas]

And not everyone is. Heck, wasn't Jon Garland making around 10 million when contracts were given out like Donuts at an AA meeting? Jackson has more potential and his best season overall has been as good if not better than Garland's best season.

 

 

Except, I didn't try to make an argument using contracts. I actually brought stats to the table in which no one really proved otherwise. And that was before last season. I digress with basketball talk in the baseball forum.

 

 

 

It did not.

 

I agree with you.

[kitekrazy]

This was clearly a case of a GM who's biggest strength is his biggest weakness in that he's always, and I mean always, playing for the right now while blatantly ignoring the future. No matter how many times this formula fails.

 

Hopefully that is starting to wear out on Reinsdorf. I want a GM who also will build a good farm system. Rumor has it the Sox have one of the worst in baseball. If Hahn is good at building a farm system, they should keep him.

 

[kitekrazy]

They do when they have to work with him. They avoid it when they can because they don't want to grossly overpay nor do they want to deal with players who almost certainly end up testing free agency. I like that they avoid working with Boras.

 

The aren't the only team in the league that practices this.

 

[nitetrain8601]

You made a ridiculous claim that some would take 6 cheap years of Hudson over the best pitcher of the last 10 years. I don't get what's so hard to understand. Does baseball have a cap? No. But every team not named the Yankees, and to a lesser degree the Cubs, Red Sox and Mets, have a budget. A budget that they HAVE to stick to. We've got over 50+ million committed to next year's rotation on a team with a 100 million dollar payroll, give or take a few million. Throw in Rios, who's overpaid, and you're talking 66 million to all of 6 players. Throw in arbitration raises to Danks, CQ and Jenks (Jenks better not be back), and that number gets higher. As of right now, we've got no 1B, C and DH. And no ready replacements in our pathetic system. It made no sense to trade our top pitching prospect, a guy that dominated the minors for over a year and a half, for a guy that's been nothing but mediocre outside of 1 half in 2009, that's due almost 9 million next year and set to become a FA and has an agent we refuse to deal with. It's not about overrating Hudson and thinking he's the next Lincecum. But you have to be able to filter some cheap/controllable talent onto your roster every now and then (again, unless you're the Yankees). Kenny has become his own worst enemy.

 

And the Sox are doing that with cheaper players. They are able to overcompensate for players because they fill the rest of the team with cheap players. So what if they all didn't come directly from the Sox's draft scouting offices. Most of those guys usually don't work, but at the same time, they acquired Floyd, Danks, Jenks, CQ, Ramirez, Teahan, Jones all on the cheap. They have Beckham at 2B, AJ doesn't cost that much at all, and Freddy was their opening day 5th starter. They have guys like Santos and Thornton in the bullpen who were both acquired cheaply. Kotsay is a cheap player.

 

No team is going to have any players that aren't overpaid. No team is also going to have everyone on the cheap and be competitive. It just doesn't happen. By the reaction though, it seems like there's a strong following which thinks Jackson is the most overpaid player on the team, when he's not even the most overpaid player in the rotation. So I don't see what's up with all the "We should've kept Dan Hudson. He's worth more than Edwin Jackson" when clearly he wasn't.

 

 

I find it funny that posters who look at Hudson and point out the risk of a prospect succeeding but then they avoid the fact that Jackson had sucked throughout his career, at every stop he was BAD for an extended period of time and there is absolutely no guarantee that he was more of a safe bet than Hudson.

 

Considering with us, Edwin had an ERA+ of 135 which is ace good, he had a ERA+ of 126 with Detroit last year, and 167 with the Dodgers in his first stint there, I'm going to say it's a much safer bet considering that shows he definitely has the talent, when he's with the right coaches, he has shown he can put it together, and it would prove that you are wrong in saying that he sucked everywhere he's been except for one half season which I think you were referencing with the Rays in 08.

 

Now has he sustained success? No, and Coop thinks he can help him. It's no big help when you're traded multiple times and you have a different pitching coach every year preaching different things.

 

Even the Yankees will bring up young players through their system as they go. I think quite a bit of their bullpen is home grown, Philip Hughes, Robinson Cano, and Brett Gardner are there too.

 

I think it would be smart for about the next 2-5 years for the team to cut spending on the MLB team by about $5-8 million and use that money on amateur players and finding ways to develop them into quality MLB players. The Sox haven't drafted and developed a star player in a really long time (Beckham could certainly get there, but he is definitely not a star player at this juncture).

 

And the Sox don't? Or we're not going to count Beckham, Santos, and Morel next year? Or we're not going to count Alexei or Viciedo? And we don't count Buehrle or PK? The sox have done a better job than most at keeping players who will be useful to them. Are they great at drafting? No, they're probably mediocre, but they're smart enough to realize that and make adjustments. As far as the Yankees, I don't think most of their bullpen is homegrown. I'd probably say maybe 3 guys tops.

 

I agree with you.

 

Thank you.

[Jordan4life_2007]

And the Sox are doing that with cheaper players. They are able to overcompensate for players because they fill the rest of the team with cheap players. So what if they all didn't come directly from the Sox's draft scouting offices. Most of those guys usually don't work, but at the same time, they acquired Floyd, Danks, Jenks, CQ, Ramirez, Teahan, Jones all on the cheap. They have Beckham at 2B, AJ doesn't cost that much at all, and Freddy was their opening day 5th starter. They have guys like Santos and Thornton in the bullpen who were both acquired cheaply. Kotsay is a cheap player.

 

Wrong, the Sox are attempting to do that with perpetual reclamation projects (i.e. guys 5-7 years past their primes) because they've failed miserably at drafting/developing (though they're just now picking up the pace in that department). I give them credit for Floyd, Danks and CQ (though the latter is looking like a 1-year wonder). Jenks was five years ago and he's a burden now. Ramirez has been a pleasant surprise. Teahen, Jones and Kotsay all, well, suck. A.J. is declining in every possible way and not getting any younger. Santos is still an unknown and obviously they get props for Thornton.

 

No team is going to have any players that aren't overpaid. No team is also going to have everyone on the cheap and be competitive. It just doesn't happen. By the reaction though, it seems like there's a strong following which thinks Jackson is the most overpaid player on the team, when he's not even the most overpaid player in the rotation. So I don't see what's up with all the "We should've kept Dan Hudson. He's worth more than Edwin Jackson" when clearly he wasn't.

 

Huh? Nobody is saying you have to have 25 market value contracts on the team. Who cares whether or not Jackson is the most overpaid player on the team. Point is he will be overpaid next year for what he's accomplished to this point. And if he does finally have a good year, will lose him anyway because he'll be looking to get paid and we don't deal with his agent.

 

 

Considering with us, Edwin had an ERA+ of 135 which is ace good, he had a ERA+ of 126 with Detroit last year, and 167 with the Dodgers in his first stint there, I'm going to say it's a much safer bet considering that shows he definitely has the talent, when he's with the right coaches, he has shown he can put it together, and it would prove that you are wrong in saying that he sucked everywhere he's been except for one half season which I think you were referencing with the Rays in 08.

 

You've got to be kidding me? ERA+? S.A.M.P.L.E.S.I.Z.E. Daniel Hudson had an ERA+ of 251 with Arizona. What's your point? ERA+ of 167 with the Dodgers? That came in like 20 innings. lol. Jackson has put together 1 good half in his career. This is fact.

 

 

Now has he sustained success? No, and Coop thinks he can help him. It's no big help when you're traded multiple times and you have a different pitching coach every year preaching different things.

 

Maybe there's a reason he keeps getting traded? Guys that are actually good don't get traded every year.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Jordan4life

[nitetrain8601]

Wrong, the Sox are attempting to do that with perpetual reclamation projects (i.e. guys 5-7 years past their primes) because they've failed miserably at drafting/developing (though they're just now picking up the pace in that department). I give them credit for Floyd, Danks and CQ (though the latter is looking like a 1-year wonder). Jenks was five years ago and he's a burden now. Ramirez has been a pleasant surprise. Teahen, Jones and Kotsay all, well, suck. A.J. is declining in every possible way and not getting any younger. Santos is still an unknown and obviously they get props for Thornton.

 

Santos is a damn good performer just in his rookie year alone. And whether they are reclamation projects, cheap prospects, or even older veterans, the thing is, for the most part, they're still pretty cheap and they still contribute for the most part for the Sox. If Ozzie misuses them, that's a different argument. You as well as others are pissed because 6+ years of Dan Hudson, no matter how good he is, is better than at least a year and a half of Edwin Jackson, no matter how good he is, because it's a known fact, according to a few of you guys, that he's leaving. Do you know how silly that argument is?

 

It's like saying, "I don't care what KW does, 6+ years of inexperienced BMac is better than 1.5 years of a proven Matt Garza." Thinking that will always bite you bad in the arse. It's not your money, it's JR's money and if he has no problem wasting 8 million on a pitcher when that's not even a ton for a guy as good as he is, then you shouldn't either.

 

 

 

Huh? Nobody is saying you have to have 25 market value contracts on the team. Who cares whether or not Jackson is the most overpaid player on the team. Point is he will be overpaid next year for what he's accomplished to this point. And if he does finally have a good year, will lose him anyway because he'll be looking to get paid and we don't deal with his agent.

 

He will be overpaid next year? Really? Cas I proved to you someone who was overpaid. I can give you a list of players who don't deserve their salary more than Edwin Jackson doesn't. His salary is not the problem. Not even close to it.

 

You've got to be kidding me? ERA+? S.A.M.P.L.E.S.I.Z.E. Daniel Hudson had an ERA+ of 251 with Arizona. What's your point? ERA+ of 167 with the Dodgers? That came in like 20 innings. lol. Jackson has put together 1 good half in his career. This is fact.

 

No it's not fact. Because I just gave you stats. You can argue the Dodgers ERA if you want. Look at the rest of his career. His early years, he sucked. But no way has the man only had only one good half. He was great his last season with TB in the 1st half. He was great with Detroit last year. He sucked with Arizona where everyone but Haren sucked(and even he was not that great this year), and he pitched damn well with the Sox. That's a hell of a lot more than just one half.

 

 

 

 

Maybe there's a reason he keeps getting traded? Guys that are actually good don't get traded every year.

 

Or teams need to cut payroll, make room for other budding stars(in their eyes), or you need to trade something to get something.

 

[witesoxfan]

And the Sox don't? Or we're not going to count Beckham, Santos, and Morel next year? Or we're not going to count Alexei or Viciedo? And we don't count Buehrle or PK? The sox have done a better job than most at keeping players who will be useful to them. Are they great at drafting? No, they're probably mediocre, but they're smart enough to realize that and make adjustments. As far as the Yankees, I don't think most of their bullpen is homegrown. I'd probably say maybe 3 guys tops.

 

All Beckham has proven at this point is that he can be a league average 2Bman. Santos had a solid, though overrated season - he showed that he can bring it at the major league level, but he allowed an absolute ton of baserunners. I do think he will improve in that regard next year. Alexei is good, but he was pretty refined when the Sox brought him in - I don't see how that is any different than the Yankees bringing in Alfonso Soriano. Morel and Viciedo haven't proven jack s***.

 

If you want to include Buehrle, then the Yankees can counter with Andy Pettitte and then tack on the greatest closer of all time. They also have a hall of fame shortstop too, and a borderline Hall of Fame catcher. And no, you don't count Paul Konerko. Paul Konerko has spent a grand total of 4 games in the White Sox minor league system - in 2008. Paul Konerko was developed by the Los Angeles Dodgers.

 

I was wrong about the Yankees pen, as they only have Joba, Mo, and Robertson that they've drafted and developed.

 

 

[nitetrain8601]

All Beckham has proven at this point is that he can be a league average 2Bman. Santos had a solid, though overrated season - he showed that he can bring it at the major league level, but he allowed an absolute ton of baserunners. I do think he will improve in that regard next year. Alexei is good, but he was pretty refined when the Sox brought him in - I don't see how that is any different than the Yankees bringing in Alfonso Soriano. Morel and Viciedo haven't proven jack s***.

 

If you want to include Buehrle, then the Yankees can counter with Andy Pettitte and then tack on the greatest closer of all time. They also have a hall of fame shortstop too, and a borderline Hall of Fame catcher. And no, you don't count Paul Konerko. Paul Konerko has spent a grand total of 4 games in the White Sox minor league system - in 2008. Paul Konerko was developed by the Los Angeles Dodgers.

 

I was wrong about the Yankees pen, as they only have Joba, Mo, and Robertson that they've drafted and developed.

 

If you want that argument, that's fine. But also understand, it backs up my argument and KW's way of thinking even more. They realize they're not great at evaluating amateur talent, so they go ahead, and trade them when they're at their peak for guys who will be useful.

[Jordan4life_2007]

If you want that argument, that's fine. But also understand, it backs up my argument and KW's way of thinking even more. They realize they're not great at evaluating amateur talent, so they go ahead, and trade them when they're at their peak for guys who will be useful.

 

So they go into every draft realizing they suck at it? Wow, that makes me feel real good as a fan.

[chisoxt]

If you want that argument, that's fine. But also understand, it backs up my argument and KW's way of thinking even more. They realize they're not great at evaluating amateur talent, so they go ahead, and trade them when they're at their peak for guys who will be useful.

Oh Boy. I understand what you are saying, but really. Is this the path to the next championship?

Edited October 9, 2010 by chisoxt

[Y2Jimmy]

Yesterday during B&B, Steve Stone said that in his opinion Rick Hahn will be offered the Mets GM job. He stated factors that might keep Hahn from taking it though. (Midwest ties, Mets financial situation with bad contracts and financial situation with the whole Madoff fiasco).

[maggsmaggs]

Yesterday during B&B, Steve Stone said that in his opinion Rick Hahn will be offered the Mets GM job. He stated factors that might keep Hahn from taking it though. (Midwest ties, Mets financial situation with bad contracts and financial situation with the whole Madoff fiasco).

Sandy Alderson is an intriguing name. As much as I love Hahn, I think Alderson has a more proven track record. He is basically Rick Hahn with proof as a good GM.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I long for the day that the Sox look past the fact that Boras is a vermin and work with him. Its a fact of business that sometimes you need to deal with scum. Grin and bear it.

Boras normally doesn't allow his players to sign an extension with the team they currently play for. Also, he likes to drag free agency out as long as possible making it difficult for the player's current team to plan their roster. He tries to get a team to bid against themselves in hopes of settling the contract in a timely fashion.

 

It's easier to deal with Boras if the client is not currently on your team and you have the money to spare. It's much more difficult when the player is already on your team and you're trying not to lose him and you need to know if you have to replace that player before it's too late.

Edited October 9, 2010 by South Side Fireworks Man

[SkokieSox]

I would love for Hahn and Cora to stay with the White Sox. With that said, I like what it says about the organization if they move on, in that, we have great baseball people, and we don't stand in your way to better yourself. Not only do we need young talented players, we need our whole organization to be that way. It doesn't go unnoticed and I feel we will draw people. Buddy Bell is a good example imo. Although he's older, he's talented. I wouldn't mind interchanging some parts on all sides.

[ThunderBolt]

It sounds like the Mets are closing in on Sandy Alderson. If that gets done then it's a great hire for them. He’s the perfect guy to instill some disipline into that organization.

[maggsmaggs]

Sandy Alderson is an intriguing name. As much as I love Hahn, I think Alderson has a more proven track record. He is basically Rick Hahn with proof as a good GM.

 

 

It sounds like the Mets are closing in on Sandy Alderson. If that gets done then it's a great hire for them. He’s the perfect guy to instill some disipline into that organization.

Called it.