Rick Hahn

[Balta1701]

Also, I'd be willing to bet that the Sox are going to trade one of those starters and replace him with Sale, saving some number of millions.

I'd really like to think that the Sox wouldn't put a rookie in that spot...but the Sox have been so aggressive with bringing people up levels lately that it would fit their recent M.O.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'd really like to think that the Sox wouldn't put a rookie in that spot...but the Sox have been so aggressive with bringing people up levels lately that it would fit their recent M.O.

I personally like it. Danks or Floyd, especially if coupled with something else, could bring a very nice bat that the team needs. And with Sale looking ready, and Freddy as a backup option, I think the Sox would be smart to use this position of strength to shore up a weakness.

 

[sircaffey]

The Sox have problems, but balance between offense and pitching isn't one. The team actually hit decently well in 2010, though it would have been a lot better with a real DH (and that was not a money decision anyway).

 

Also, I'd be willing to bet that the Sox are going to trade one of those starters and replace him with Sale, saving some number of millions.

I don't know what offense you are looking at. The Sox put up middle of the pack AL numbers in one of MLB's best offensive parks. And that was with Pauly going Pujols-like. Now he may or may not be back. The 2010 version, at least, probably won't be. The Sox are in desperate need of some bats.

[Balta1701]

I personally like it. Danks or Floyd, especially if coupled with something else, could bring a very nice bat that the team needs. And with Sale looking ready, and Freddy as a backup option, I think the Sox would be smart to use this position of strength to shore up a weakness.

Why wouldn't some NL team on the outside and needing pitching outbid us for Garcia? He's a legit middle of the rotation starter for a lot of those NL teams, and you want him to be a 6th starter.

[NorthSideSox72]

I don't know what offense you are looking at. The Sox put up middle of the pack AL numbers in one of MLB's best offensive parks. And that was with Pauly going Pujols-like. Now he may or may not be back. The 2010 version, at least, probably won't be. The Sox are in desperate need of some bats.

And that was with a joke of a scheme at DH, with AJ producing near the bottom offensively, Vizquel starting much of the year, etc.

 

You don't need a #1 offense if your pitching is very good. Unless you are the Yankees, you have to choose your investments wisely, you can't just throw money out there at every position. This being the case, I agree with the general philosophy of putting the top end money more in pitching than hitting.

 

Konerko was the only guy on the entire offense who put up numbers that are well above their "norms", versus guys like AJ and TCQ having bad ones, Bekcham performing below where we all think he will, Vizquel in the lineup most of the time, and a huge hole at DH. If you want to look at trends for players and what direction they appear to be going, I see a lot more likely ups next year than downs.

 

That all said, losing Konerko would be a big problem, I agree, and I also agree its probable he's not the 2010 PK again in 2011. But if you CAN bring him back, and upgrade 1B/DH or RF with a plus bat... and regardless of whether you have Flowers or AJ at catcher... I think this is likely to be an above average offense next year.

 

Also remember, the defense in 2010 was improved, and I think may improve yet again in 2011 with Morel at 3B instead of Teahen to start the year, and probably someone other than TCQ in RF. You might lose some if PK leaves of course.

 

Its yet again all about money. If the Sox can re-sign Konerko and upgrade either DH or RF, and fill some bullpen gaps, I like this team as a contender next year. If they can't do any of that, well, that could be ugly.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Why wouldn't some NL team on the outside and needing pitching outbid us for Garcia? He's a legit middle of the rotation starter for a lot of those NL teams, and you want him to be a 6th starter.

They might.

 

I should have thrown in this variable - if Peavy doesn't come back healthy, that throws a huge wrench in the whole thing.

 

[Special K]

You know this how? Looking at Hudson's performances and stats and you'll see that he had a VERY uncharacteristically high amount of walks. In the minors, and now with the DBacks, he has always been a low walk guy. With the Sox, he was walking too many batters and putting himself in trouble but never really got hit hard. He was showing swing and miss stuff which is important, couple that with his history of good control and his success with the DBacks had a very good chance of happening with the Sox.

 

And if you're going to through out that NL no-pennant race bulls*** than you have to look at the first half that Jackson had, and tell me why the hell we gave up so much for a terrible pitcher in the NL who wasn't on a good team.

 

Jackson has had about 1 good season of pitching total in 4, he had just as much risk as Hudson of performing well down the stretch. Remember his August/Sept. stats from Detroit last year, they were AWFUL. He has shown no consistency and no tendency to perform well in high pressure situations.

 

Case in point Clayton Richard...

 

Year Age Tm Lg W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB

2009 25 TOT MLB 9 5 .643 4.41 38 26 3 1 0 0 153.0 154 81 75 17 71 0 114 3 98 1.471 9.1 1.0 4.2 6.7 1.61

2010 26 SDP NL 14 9 .609 3.75 33 33 0 1 1 0 201.2 206 89 84 16 78 6 153 2 4 861 98 1.408 9.2 0.7 3.5 6.8 1.96

 

 

Compare his 2009 year where he played a majority w/ the Sox, and then his 2010 year where he played solely w/ the Padres. In 2009 he started about 10 less games, but he was on pace to give up the same amount of hits over the same amount of innings pitched, his WHIP's were relatively similar, and so were the k/9. However, not pitching at the cell translated into a dramatic drop off in homeruns and runs scored. This translated into a an ERA of almost .75 difference.

 

Jackson has two solid seasons, not including what he did for us last year. He pitches better in the central, i'm not positive why he does, but if it's because he is more comfortable, or because Cooper helped him work a couple things out is fine with me, because we are getting the results.

 

Everyone in the Sox organization thought Hudson was at-best a back of the rotation starter. That's why they were fine w/ letting him go because Jackson has much more upside, and has much filthier stuff.

[bigruss]

Case in point Clayton Richard...

 

Year Age Tm Lg W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB

2009 25 TOT MLB 9 5 .643 4.41 38 26 3 1 0 0 153.0 154 81 75 17 71 0 114 3 98 1.471 9.1 1.0 4.2 6.7 1.61

2010 26 SDP NL 14 9 .609 3.75 33 33 0 1 1 0 201.2 206 89 84 16 78 6 153 2 4 861 98 1.408 9.2 0.7 3.5 6.8 1.96

 

 

Compare his 2009 year where he played a majority w/ the Sox, and then his 2010 year where he played solely w/ the Padres. In 2009 he started about 10 less games, but he was on pace to give up the same amount of hits over the same amount of innings pitched, his WHIP's were relatively similar, and so were the k/9. However, not pitching at the cell translated into a dramatic drop off in homeruns and runs scored. This translated into a an ERA of almost .75 difference.

 

Jackson has two solid seasons, not including what he did for us last year. He pitches better in the central, i'm not positive why he does, but if it's because he is more comfortable, or because Cooper helped him work a couple things out is fine with me, because we are getting the results.

 

Everyone in the Sox organization thought Hudson was at-best a back of the rotation starter. That's why they were fine w/ letting him go because Jackson has much more upside, and has much filthier stuff.

Petco park is completely different from straight up pitching in the NL. It's like CarGo in Colorado vs. away.

 

Jackson has had one good season, and even then he was TERRIBLE in September when his team needed him.

 

And if the Sox thought Hudson was a back end rotation starter than shame on them and they should be called out for it. He may not have been a future ace, but he had swing and miss stuff, and combined with his peripherals in the minors he easily projected to a 2/3 starter, and IMO was a 4/5 starter NOW.

 

Just because you don't value your own player as much as another team doesn't mean you should give them away for the price you value them, if a team likes him more you price him at that.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Case in point Clayton Richard...

 

Year Age Tm Lg W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB

2009 25 TOT MLB 9 5 .643 4.41 38 26 3 1 0 0 153.0 154 81 75 17 71 0 114 3 98 1.471 9.1 1.0 4.2 6.7 1.61

2010 26 SDP NL 14 9 .609 3.75 33 33 0 1 1 0 201.2 206 89 84 16 78 6 153 2 4 861 98 1.408 9.2 0.7 3.5 6.8 1.96

 

 

Compare his 2009 year where he played a majority w/ the Sox, and then his 2010 year where he played solely w/ the Padres. In 2009 he started about 10 less games, but he was on pace to give up the same amount of hits over the same amount of innings pitched, his WHIP's were relatively similar, and so were the k/9. However, not pitching at the cell translated into a dramatic drop off in homeruns and runs scored. This translated into a an ERA of almost .75 difference.

 

Jackson has two solid seasons, not including what he did for us last year. He pitches better in the central, i'm not positive why he does, but if it's because he is more comfortable, or because Cooper helped him work a couple things out is fine with me, because we are getting the results.

 

Everyone in the Sox organization thought Hudson was at-best a back of the rotation starter. That's why they were fine w/ letting him go because Jackson has much more upside, and has much filthier stuff.

 

No doubt. Guys with unlimited upside always get traded four times in four years. You win.

[Special K]

Petco park is completely different from straight up pitching in the NL. It's like CarGo in Colorado vs. away.

 

Jackson has had one good season, and even then he was TERRIBLE in September when his team needed him.

 

And if the Sox thought Hudson was a back end rotation starter than shame on them and they should be called out for it. He may not have been a future ace, but he had swing and miss stuff, and combined with his peripherals in the minors he easily projected to a 2/3 starter, and IMO was a 4/5 starter NOW.

 

Just because you don't value your own player as much as another team doesn't mean you should give them away for the price you value them, if a team likes him more you price him at that.

 

 

I wouldn't consider 3-2 out of 6 games started that September terrible. His ERA was high, but by no means did he kill his team.

 

Anyways, if we look back to now, he was very solid for us during his brief stint last year. I think he was 4-2 w/ an ERA in the mid 3s. I will certainl take that production (if possible for him to maintain) all year next year. I'm anxious to see how Hudson does, if he keeps up those numbers, than bravo to him and Kenny looks like a moron. All I know is that Hudson WAS NOT getting it done for us when we needed him to. Keep it in context, we were in the middle of a playoff race and that spot in the rotation was getting blown up. Jackson came in and changed that. In fact, he was probably our best pitcher down the stretch. If our bullpen didn't implode and our team made the playoffs that move would have looked great.

 

Lots of fans would have gotten angry w/ Kenny for not solidifying that spot in the rotation in the middle of a playoff race.

[Leonard Zelig]

No doubt. Guys with unlimited upside always get traded four times in four years. You win.

 

Do you mean like Cliff Lee?

[bigruss]

I wouldn't consider 3-2 out of 6 games started that September terrible. His ERA was high, but by no means did he kill his team.

 

Anyways, if we look back to now, he was very solid for us during his brief stint last year. I think he was 4-2 w/ an ERA in the mid 3s. I will certainl take that production (if possible for him to maintain) all year next year. I'm anxious to see how Hudson does, if he keeps up those numbers, than bravo to him and Kenny looks like a moron. All I know is that Hudson WAS NOT getting it done for us when we needed him to. Keep it in context, we were in the middle of a playoff race and that spot in the rotation was getting blown up. Jackson came in and changed that. In fact, he was probably our best pitcher down the stretch. If our bullpen didn't implode and our team made the playoffs that move would have looked great.

 

Lots of fans would have gotten angry w/ Kenny for not solidifying that spot in the rotation in the middle of a playoff race.

First off, never use wins as a way to judge a pitcher's performance, wins are almost always out of the hands of the pitcher as an offense can score 10 runs to save a pitcher or none to kill a great performance, look at other stats to determine a pitcher's worth.

 

Second, you don't trade a young, talented pitcher who struggled in one key area, walks, but showed in the past that those struggles would go away. Jackson was a decent pickup, but he was not worth Hudson, period. Kenny is shooting himself in the foot with this trade, and you'll see this when we have a Dewayne Wise/Mark Kotsay starting in our lineup somewhere because we ran out of funds, or we can't resign key players (and not just Konerko, who I think will get more money regardless elsewhere, but guys like Putz that we need in the bullpen).

[Balta1701]

Do you mean like Cliff Lee?

A while ago, Nitetrain and I were discussing the Hudson deal and basically I was asked what it would take for me to in the end admit that the Jackson deal worked out well for the Sox. My answer was quite simple; 2 playoff wins out of him.

 

I figured that would mean the Sox made the playoffs with Jackson, Jackson's salary didn't get in the way of building a team, and Jackson pitched well enough that he was in the rotation in the playoffs. To me, that would offset the fact that we lost a minimum salary guy.

 

Cliff Lee...has 2 playoff wins...this year.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Do you mean like Cliff Lee?

 

You got me. Jackson=Cliff Lee

[Special K]

First off, never use wins as a way to judge a pitcher's performance, wins are almost always out of the hands of the pitcher as an offense can score 10 runs to save a pitcher or none to kill a great performance, look at other stats to determine a pitcher's worth.

 

Second, you don't trade a young, talented pitcher who struggled in one key area, walks, but showed in the past that those struggles would go away. Jackson was a decent pickup, but he was not worth Hudson, period. Kenny is shooting himself in the foot with this trade, and you'll see this when we have a Dewayne Wise/Mark Kotsay starting in our lineup somewhere because we ran out of funds, or we can't resign key players (and not just Konerko, who I think will get more money regardless elsewhere, but guys like Putz that we need in the bullpen).

 

Big Russ, you're killing me. The verdict is still out on this deal. Maybe Coop does to Jackson what he did with Floyd, and Jackson has his best year ever next year. While I think it is definitely pricey, we do have Jenks coming off the books, so hopefully those two things kind of even out. Certainly i'd rather have Konerko here, and if the Jackson deal meant no Konerko, then i'm not happy w/ that deal. But we do have some money coming off the books.

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

No doubt. Guys with unlimited upside always get traded four times in four years. You win.

 

Brett Wallace says hello!

[Leonard Zelig]

You got me. Jackson=Cliff Lee

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

[BigSqwert]

Brett Wallace says hello!

Shaddup! You don't really know him.

[bigruss]

Big Russ, you're killing me. The verdict is still out on this deal. Maybe Coop does to Jackson what he did with Floyd, and Jackson has his best year ever next year. While I think it is definitely pricey, we do have Jenks coming off the books, so hopefully those two things kind of even out. Certainly i'd rather have Konerko here, and if the Jackson deal meant no Konerko, then i'm not happy w/ that deal. But we do have some money coming off the books.

As great as Jackson could be next year, he has to outperform 6 years of Hudson (and whatever Holmberg turns into) to make that trade even.

 

Almost all of the money being saved from expiring contracts will be going to arbitration and raises, we have some $85 million tied up with obvious keepers like Danks. Even after that we're down Konerko, Jenks, Putz, Vizquel, Jones and AJ. We'll need a catcher, a 1B, possibly a 3B depending on Morel, a closer, a setup man, and possibly some bench pieces. All that for less than $15 million. Now tell me that Kenny did not shoot himself in his foot with the moves leading to this situation. He now has to trade from an area of strength to recover from his weaknesses, and with the Peavy injury, that strength is already in question.

[LittleHurt05]

Shaddup! You don't really know him.

 

How would you know? Go ahead and ask him, I dare ya.

[Special K]

You got me. Jackson=Cliff Lee

 

What's with you and clever quips? You offer nothing to support your arguments. I never said Jackson had unlimited upside, just that he had more upside. Plenty of guys bounce around teams before they get it together... Thornton, Jenks, Josh Hamilton, even Floyd could be tossed into that category.

 

All I gotta say is that Jackson has been an all star, and if were lucky regain that form. I don't see Hudson getting to that point, and guess what, the Sox scouts agree.

[Jordan4life_2007]

What's with you and clever quips? You offer nothing to support your arguments. I never said Jackson had unlimited upside, just that he had more upside. Plenty of guys bounce around teams before they get it together... Thornton, Jenks, Josh Hamilton, even Floyd could be tossed into that category.

 

All I gotta say is that Jackson has been an all star, and if were lucky regain that form. I don't see Hudson getting to that point, and guess what, the Sox scouts agree.

 

 

Whatever you say cereal boy.

[southsider2k5]

You got me. Jackson=Cliff Lee

 

Actually that is pretty much a trump card. You are talking about a way better pitcher who has been traded all over Gods creation in the last few years. It proves the point that just because a guy gets traded a bunch, doesn't mean something is wrong with him necesarily.

[NorthSideSox72]

 

Whatever you say cereal boy.

Can you please stop it? Seriously, even if you think he's dead wrong, your 10 year old act is getting old.

 

[nitetrain8601]

First off, never use wins as a way to judge a pitcher's performance, wins are almost always out of the hands of the pitcher as an offense can score 10 runs to save a pitcher or none to kill a great performance, look at other stats to determine a pitcher's worth.

 

Second, you don't trade a young, talented pitcher who struggled in one key area, walks, but showed in the past that those struggles would go away. Jackson was a decent pickup, but he was not worth Hudson, period. Kenny is shooting himself in the foot with this trade, and you'll see this when we have a Dewayne Wise/Mark Kotsay starting in our lineup somewhere because we ran out of funds, or we can't resign key players (and not just Konerko, who I think will get more money regardless elsewhere, but guys like Putz that we need in the bullpen).

 

Again, I fail to see where Edwin Jackson is the cause of this. For someone getting paid his salary, he's pretty justafiably paid compared to other pitchers in the league. Also, if we had Hudson over Jackson, the best we could do is maybe afford two Juan Uribe's which still doesn't make this team a contender. Rios, Buehrle and PK are and would be much better cases for the whole "funds" argument. Not Edwin. So I'm not buying that.