Jenksismyhero Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 03:40 PM) There are legitimate arguments against Rose winning the MVP but I'm going to be pissed if Thibodeau doesn't win coach of the year. His defensive philosophies are simply incredible and has been the biggest reason for the Bulls improvement this year (obviously Rose becoming a legit superstar played a large part as well). Problem is that the coaching race is closer. How can you leave out a guy like Popovich considering he's working with 3 geriatric patients and still has the best record in the league? Or a guy like Doug Collins who has a bunch of nobodies in the playoffs? Or even Karl who lost his best player and has been going on a nice run? Thibodeau has been great (best first year for a coach ever right?), but I wouldn't be nearly as pissed if someone else wins than if someone else wins the MVP award. I'm with you, I think Thibs should win it, but IMO that's a closer race than MVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 03:44 PM) No, I actually respect the hell out of Zoom, he knows his s*** and he definitely watches games. He's one of the brighter basketball minds on this board imo. Ask him if he watches games... wait for answer... be sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 04:54 PM) Problem is that the coaching race is closer. How can you leave out a guy like Popovich considering he's working with 3 geriatric patients and still has the best record in the league? Or a guy like Doug Collins who has a bunch of nobodies in the playoffs? Or even Karl who lost his best player and has been going on a nice run? Thibodeau has been great (best first year for a coach ever right?), but I wouldn't be nearly as pissed if someone else wins than if someone else wins the MVP award. I'm with you, I think Thibs should win it, but IMO that's a closer race than MVP. I think improving a playoff team into a title contender is substantially more impressive than getting a mediocre team into the playoffs although Collins has done a great job. Popovich is the only other guy who I would even consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 04:56 PM) I think improving a playoff team into a title contender is substantially more impressive than getting a mediocre team into the playoffs although Collins has done a great job. Popovich is the only other guy who I would even consider. I think George Karl has a case as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 02:56 PM) Cough, Zoomslowik, cough. Yea, probably the only guy on this board (DBAH0 is up there too) who has a basketball mind as good or superior to mine is garbage... Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Felix @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 03:07 PM) When you say "rips Derrick Rose," do you mean says that he's a really good player, but isn't the MVP of the league because the Bulls success is more dependent on their defense than Rose? Because I don't really understand what's so wrong about that. I agree that advanced metrics aren't perfect in basketball, but to ignore them because they don't agree with your opinion is just as stupid as old-timey baseball people ignoring Jeter's obviously deficient defense because their eyes say otherwise. Hollinger watches plenty of basketball and doesn't just stare at numbers all day. He uses the numbers to supplement his basketball interest and help give a better all-around view of a player/team. And because I can't help myself, why are all Bulls fans so damn defensive about everything related to their team? I've tend to notice this with anything related to the Bulls, not just the Rose/MVP talk, but someone said Rose wasn't MVP, big deal. Just about everyone else still thinks he is. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, why do you guys seem to always go apes*** when other people don't think the same thing as you? I think Hollinger pissed a bunch of Bulls fans off when he and a bunch of other advanced-stats people said Rose wasn't even a candidate for MVP earlier in the year. Since then, those people have been trash talking to Hollinger on Twitter and on emails to prove that he was wrong. Of course, Hollinger has a ego too and he won't admit that perhaps he was wrong for saying Rose didn't belong in the discussion, so he obviously has to defend himself, which comes in the form of little jabs at Rose's game here and there. It's one of those popular vs. unpopular opinions things. When everyone thinks something is one way, they try to persuade the few who think otherwise to the popular way of thinking. It's natural human instinct and when you have one of the larger fanbases in basketball at the base of it, it sure seems like it's a very frequent thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (SoxAce @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:06 PM) Yea, probably the only guy on this board (DBAH0 is up there too) who has a basketball mind as good or superior to mine is garbage... Yep. I didn't say his mind was garbage. I talk to Joe all the time. I said he doesn't watch the games and bases his NBA knowledge on stats. He's freely admitted this. I'm glad you've anointed yourself as basketball genius, though. That's company I'm happy I don't keep! (Oh wait, he didn't call Lebron! He's stupid!) Edited April 8, 2011 by Steve9347 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:20 PM) I'm glad you've anointed yourself and DBAHO as basketball geniuses though. That's company I'm happy I don't keep! (Oh wait, he didn't call Lebron! He's stupid!) Don't worry. I'll give Slavko, Felix, soxfan99, Rock, J4L, thxfrthmmrs and chw (metrics wise) their dues too. Edited April 8, 2011 by SoxAce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Case in point, Joe (Zoom) said to me earlier today that Rose needs to stop taking so many 3's, based on his percentage. I then gave him s*** for not watching games because Derrick Rose's added "threat" from 3 point range has allowed his game to go through the stratosphere. He of course argued this, like most statheads who hate on D-Rose, because, well, he hasn't watched every game this year like myself and many other Bulls fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:23 PM) Don't worry. I'll give Slavko, Felix, soxfan99, Rock, J4L, thxfrthmmrs and chw (metrics wise) their dues too. I get it, Gerry, you heart the interwebs. Congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 06:24 PM) Case in point, Joe (Zoom) said to me earlier today that Rose needs to stop taking so many 3's, based on his percentage. I then gave him s*** for not watching games because Derrick Rose's added "threat" from 3 point range has allowed his game to go through the stratosphere. He of course argued this, like most statheads who hate on D-Rose, because, well, he hasn't watched every game this year like myself and many other Bulls fans. Those 3's he was taking last night were pretty bad shots. He buried the Celtics with them. I was starting to think after the 2nd or 3rd one late in the game that he was just toying with Boston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:26 PM) Those 3's he was taking last night were pretty bad shots. He buried the Celtics with them. I was starting to think after the 2nd or 3rd one late in the game that he was just toying with Boston. No, ZoomSlowik says he needs to stop shooting them, the morning after that game, because he doesn't watch the games. Yet somehow I'm the bad guy and SoxAce is the self-anointed smartest basketball brain in the history of the world. I'll avoid this thread for the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:24 PM) Case in point, Joe (Zoom) said to me earlier today that Rose needs to stop taking so many 3's, based on his percentage. I then gave him s*** for not watching games because Derrick Rose's added "threat" from 3 point range has allowed his game to go through the stratosphere. He of course argued this, like most statheads who hate on D-Rose, because, well, he hasn't watched every game this year like myself and many other Bulls fans. He shouldn't be shooting so many. There's shooting to make a point and establish the shot and then there's shooting too many and missing 66% of them, which is what Rose is doing. On nights where he attacks the rim first and shoots a modest amount of 3s, he is at his best. His poor shooting nights are the ones where he misses almost all his 3s and doesn't drive to the hoop enough. You don't technically have to watch the game to figure any of this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 06:31 PM) He shouldn't be shooting so many. There's shooting to make a point and establish the shot and then there's shooting too many and missing 66% of them, which is what Rose is doing. On nights where he attacks the rim first and shoots a modest amount of 3s, he is at his best. His poor shooting nights are the ones where he misses almost all his 3s and doesn't drive to the hoop enough. You don't technically have to watch the game to figure any of this out. There's a connection there though. When he's missing 3's for a couple games in a row, the defenders take a step back from him and make it harder for him to get to the hoop, or at least make it so that he doesn't get as clean of a shot if he gets there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:33 PM) There's a connection there though. When he's missing 3's for a couple games in a row, the defenders take a step back from him and make it harder for him to get to the hoop, or at least make it so that he doesn't get as clean of a shot if he gets there. He has to figure out a way to balance his 3 point shooting out a bit more. When he was more balanced early in the season, he was hitting them at almost 40%. I know it becomes more predictable that way, but his shooting has been incredibly inconsistent this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:35 PM) He has to figure out a way to balance his 3 point shooting out a bit more. When he was more balanced early in the season, he was hitting them at almost 40%. I know it becomes more predictable that way, but his shooting has been incredibly inconsistent this season. Yet he's going to be the NBA MVP and has his team on the cusp of the 1 seed in the Eastern Conference. At some point you just have to accept the game you are watching and have faith in the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:29 PM) No, ZoomSlowik says he needs to stop shooting them, the morning after that game, because he doesn't watch the games. Yet somehow I'm the bad guy and SoxAce is the self-anointed smartest basketball brain in the history of the world. I'll avoid this thread for the weekend. Geez. Now I know what Rowand44 was saying about you only reading what you want to read and missing the point. Take it easy champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 My minds > Yours. Half of you wanted teh suck that is Tyson Chandler. The other half of you were sad to see Kurt(sup Vinny) go. And the others think Luol Deng is having a great year when in all honesty, he's not playing at a higher level, it's just the team is winning and Rose is a unicorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 s*** I got a shout out? Nice. Anyway, hell of a lot of articles dissing Rondo out there today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:24 PM) Case in point, Joe (Zoom) said to me earlier today that Rose needs to stop taking so many 3's, based on his percentage. I then gave him s*** for not watching games because Derrick Rose's added "threat" from 3 point range has allowed his game to go through the stratosphere. He of course argued this, like most statheads who hate on D-Rose, because, well, he hasn't watched every game this year like myself and many other Bulls fans. Yeah, I'm with you. That threat of a three ball has forced teams to stop going under the pick and roll, giving Rose a helluva a lot more room to work with. If he stops shooting them, the defense packs back in against him like they did the previous two years. He has to shoot that shot regularly, even if it slumps at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Hollinger's argument is basically that Rose doesn't deserve MVP because he only shoots 33% from 3's, 44% from the field (down on his prev. seasons) and wouldn't look good defensively playing for any other coach / team (since the Bulls have got a great interior defense), all which impacts that PER that he does. Rose will definitely win MVP though, but I think Thibodeau coming in as coach has made more of a difference than anything to this team. If VDN was still coaching this team, they're probably a 4th or 5th seed at best IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 01:36 AM) I can't say enough about how good Luol Deng has been this season. He gets overshadowed by Rose, but he's been excellent. To Luol Rose's improvement in threes has been a big focus but Deng's actually improved there more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 12:37 AM) The last time Rondo put up good numbers against Rose was probably in the 09 playoffs. He was a monster that series. Rondo is heavily overrated. He is a "true" point guard, but he severely lacks any sort of consistent offensive game. The only thing he can do is drive since he's very fast, but even then, he's not a great finisher. To put the icing on the cake, he also sucks at FTs. In the '09 playoffs when Rose was a rookie and still like 19. Rondo can get to the rim but like you said isn't a good finisher. He missed a couple of wide open layups in addition to that missed jumper. He doesn't just suck at FTs, he is horrific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 06:21 PM) My minds > Yours. Half of you wanted teh suck that is Tyson Chandler. The other half of you were sad to see Kurt(sup Vinny) go. And the others think Luol Deng is having a great year when in all honesty, he's not playing at a higher level, it's just the team is winning and Rose is a unicorn. LOL Don't you still like oj mayo over Rose?? And zoom wanted beasley over Rose And j4l is almost always overreactingly wrong Not that big of a deal. Everyone's gonna have a wrong opinion every now and then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:29 PM) No, ZoomSlowik says he needs to stop shooting them, the morning after that game, because he doesn't watch the games. Yet somehow I'm the bad guy and SoxAce is the self-anointed smartest basketball brain in the history of the world. I'll avoid this thread for the weekend. Way to go on this rant when you know I'm gone for the evening. First off, you make it sound like I've never even seen a basketball when that's just not the case. I've seen a handful of games this year, though I watch a lot more college basketball and Sox games. The NBA just isn't my top viewing choice until the playoffs. Second, the notion that because someone doesn't watch EVERY game makes their opinion invalid is ridiculous, and this isn't the first time you've taken that approach. Third, I never said he should STOP shooting 3's. I said that taking 5 a game when you're still a below average shooter isn't a particularly good choice and he doesn't have to brick three a game on average to keep people honest. Fourth, the original context was how the heck Rose shoots enough to get 1.6 made 3's a game for fantasy purposes, not that it's a HUGE problem for the Bulls or anything along those lines. But sure, keep going on the "watch the games" and "it makes him more dangerous" lines again and again because they clearly add to your case and aren't subjective at all. Edited April 9, 2011 by ZoomSlowik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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