2010-2011 NBA Thread

[MexSoxFan#1]

Just turned on the game, so I haven't seen any of it up to this point, but it looks like Rose is still taking those threes...

(Oh, and just to be completely clear, I agree entirely nite about CP3/Rose. And I said this way before CP3's game against the Lakers. nite is right.)

 

 

zzzzzzzzzzz

[chw42]

Actually, this has been a major criticism of PER. It's just a hodge podge of efficiency metrics that Hollinger thinks are important. However, other, more widely accepted efficiency metrics, also pin Paul as the better player.

 

Efficiency isn't the be-all-end-all in basketball that it is in baseball, though. Someone needs to take the shots.

 

PER actually awards players for inefficient shooting. Take Roy Hibbert for instance. He has a TS% of just over 50% on the year (bad. especially for a big man), yet his PER is 16 (above average), mostly because he averaged around 7 rebounds per 36. PER often rewards too much for rebounds and it can erase the detriment of inefficient offense. All PER is is a league average normalization of efficiency, the stat that adds everything good, subtracts everything bad. It wasn't really rocket science to begin with.

 

Hibbert's Win Shares is a low 3.3, with only 0.3 coming from the offensive end. That's a much better picture of his overall performance. PER is a nice number to look at for a quick look, but there's other numbers that go deeper for better analysis.

 

Luol Deng is even a better example of this. His PER this season is actually LOWER than it was last year. Anybody who's watched him play this year can tell you he's a far improved player on both ends of the floor. But once again, it's the rebounds. Deng had 1.7 less rebounds per 36 this year, leading to a 15.5 PER in comparison's to last year's 16.1. And that's with Deng being a better shooter and better defender this season.

Edited April 19, 2011 by chw42

[nitetrain8601]

I love how you talk about Rose being able to take punishment that Paul can't yet you've determined that Paul is going to be better in the long term than Rose, that intrigues me.

 

Anyways, yes I'm a Bulls fan and the reason I love Rose so damn much is because he makes my team about as good as any player can. I've never cared for a player more than my team, hell...Mark Buehrle might be my favorite athlete of all time but if the Sox were able to even get a minor upgrade for him at any point of his career, I'd drive him to the airport myself.

 

Once again, you can throw all the freakin stats at me that you want, I really don't care, when I watch these two players play it's Rose be a good margin at the moment. I know it's cliche but he does what he needs to do to make his team win. He wasn't a shoot first pg his first two years in the NBA but with this team he has to be and that's why he is. I actually believe it'd really help out the Hornets a bit if Paul would shoot more instead of only taking 11 shots a game, when you're your teams best player, you have to put up more shots than that, especially when you're not working with a great supporting cast. And not to be a complete asshole but I wonder how you personally believe this team was able to win 62 games when you think Luol Deng is complete garbage, something has to give there. By the sounds of it, if it were up to you we'd have OJ Mayo and Ben Gordon running this team while Rose and Deng were somewhere else.

 

The Bulls would not have 62 wins or be the number 1 seed overall if we had Chris Paul instead of Derrick Rose. If I thought Paul were better than Rose I'd freakin tell you, it has nothing to do with Rose being on the Bulls, he's just a better player at this point.

 

I realize you were in the heat of the battle and you love the Bulls' PG. At the same time, you're not looking at this objectively and you even stated such in the bold statement. Just remember, the Hornets do not have anyone as good as Boozer, Noah or Deng, much less a team anywhere as good. They have Aaron Gray in their rotation which is awful. Sometimes, you can't take shots because there's three guys on you. Do I think Deng is great? No. He's not having a much better season than previous years. The thing is, in Thibs' scheme, he's showing much more importance, and that's why he gets praised much more. He had a better season in 06-07. And I'll go ahead and say, I still wouldn't pay Luol Deng an average of 14 million his last two years.

 

And yes, Paul can last longer because he doesn't depend heavily on athleticism like Rose's game does. He's one of the most cerebral players in the league. He's excellent defensively and can do many things great. Rose as it stands, is elite because of his athleticism and strength. That tends to go away when you get older. Rose also plays with reckless abandon, taking several shots a game. Paul does not. It goes back to the Dwyane Wade argument. He eventually started getting injured a ton because of the hits he took.

 

I still think the Bulls would be wonderful with OJ Mayo as I don't think he would've been hampered by Lionel Collins and an inept Grizzlies FO. Remember, the Bulls wanted him at the deadline, but they wanted the Bulls to give up the world for him. Yes, I wanted Mayo over Rose, but I also believe, Mayo would be a much different player if he had gone to a different team. Ever since Hollins took over for Ivaroni, he's been a different player. And I could be wrong, but I also don't have a problem admitting it. I also preferred LaMarcus Aldridge over Tyrus Thomas during their draft. Where's my prize for that?

 

Last, but not least, about the Ben Gordon thing. You want to get on Ben for taking 15 FGA a game his last year here when he averaged 20 PPG and was the only other player than Dwight (and I think Paul IIRC) to average less FGA while scoring at least 20PPG. Remember, Ben is a SG. His whole purpose is to shoot. But then, you stick up for Derrick putting up 25 shots a game "because he has to". You can't have it both ways.

 

After reading through this, I apologize to nite for not getting the shoutout you deserve. (I guess it was the ol' Ben Gordon fascination that perplexed me when I forgot you are very good with talking basketball though you do have your flaws in some players' logic) You can have Rock's spot.

 

Looks like I missed a good game btw cause of work. Glad we got the dubya.

 

Sorry you missed the game. It was a good one. To me, the game was never in question. What's in question is how far the Bulls can go. Noah still doesn't seem right. Boozer refused to take all but one shot in the second half, despite finishing with a good stat line, and Deng didn't play so well. I can easily see the Bulls upset by Orlando if they don't get it together.

[MattZakrowski]

Rose has done just fine defensively. He's definitely improved under Thibs.

 

Just Fine≠Difference Maker. Paul, James, Howard, Wade all excel on both ends.

[Melissa1334]

Paul has been nothing special this year or last year. He has one great game and now people think hes the best point guard. This to me is more about hating on rose than praising paul. I dont know why people are doing this but all that you have to do is watch the way this guy closes games and wills his team to victory and its a closed arguement. But I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Quin]

I'd like to point out Rose has more blocks than James and more offensive rebounds.

 

Rose is good as a defender.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Paul has been nothing special this year or last year. He has one great game and now people think hes the best point guard. This to me is more about hating on rose than praising paul. I dont know why people are doing this but all that you have to do is watch the way this guy closes games and wills his team to victory and its a closed arguement. But I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

Nothing special in comparison to his historic (if you believe in stats) '08/'09 seasons. He missed like 40 games in 2010 and was still pretty sick. I can't really fingerpoint this year. But the dude is spectacular. I just can't believe how sensitive some are. I love Rose. But c'mon now.

[Felix]

But the dude is spectacular. I just can't believe how sensitive some are. I love Rose. But c'mon now.

It's been this way all season and is only getting worse.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

LOL

[kjshoe04]

Nothing special in comparison to his historic (if you believe in stats) '08/'09 seasons. He missed like 40 games in 2010 and was still pretty sick. I can't really fingerpoint this year. But the dude is spectacular. I just can't believe how sensitive some are. I love Rose. But c'mon now.

Rose has been better all season long. I love Paul. But c'mon now.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Rose has been better all season long. I love Paul. But c'mon now.

 

But why act like it's not a debate? Steve goes into convulsions anytime you even insinuate Paul is in the same stratosphere. Even Rowand went suicide bomber crazy the other day.

[JorgeFabregas]

Just Fine≠Difference Maker. Paul, James, Howard, Wade all excel on both ends.

Looks like Rose had a higher defensive win share than Paul this year and equal points allowed per 100 possessions. I don't know enough about basketball metrics to evaluate that, but there it is.

[chw42]

Just Fine≠Difference Maker. Paul, James, Howard, Wade all excel on both ends.

 

Say whatever you want about DRtg (how team-oriented it is, etc), but Rose has one of the top marks for a PG in the game this year at 103. He's tied with CP3, good for second behind Rondo.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/league...nced_stats.html

[Quin]

Looks like Rose had a higher defensive win share than Paul this year and equal points allowed per 100 possessions. I don't know enough about basketball metrics to evaluate that, but there it is.

 

 

As for the Paul/Rose debate, Rose is my #1 with a close Paul, when he's healthy.

 

What's worse is when Rondo gets brought into these debates. It's Rose vs. Paul, with Williams getting the bronze. Then let Westbrook and Nash duke it out for 4th.

[chw42]

<!--quoteo(post=2359119:date=Apr 20, 2011 -> 12:32 AM:name=JorgeFabregas)-->

<!--quotec-->Looks like Rose had a higher defensive win share than Paul this year and equal points allowed per 100 possessions. I don't know enough about basketball metrics to evaluate that, but there it is.

 

 

As for the Paul/Rose debate, Rose is my #1 with a close Paul, when he's healthy.

 

What's worse is when Rondo gets brought into these debates. It's Rose vs. Paul, with Williams getting the bronze. Then let Westbrook and Nash duke it out for 4th.

 

Rondo's such a horrific shooter that he shouldn't even be in the discussion right now. He was Brandon Jennings bad this year when it came to efficiency.

[DBAHO]

Good battling win for us today.

 

Offensively we're playing at about 40% efficiency right now. No-one other than Dwight is really doing well on that end for us, so there's a lot of upside there for us.

 

We ran a lot more pick and rolls today, got better looks on offense, the likes of Hedo and J-Rich need to start knocking down shots, they are streaky shooters though.

 

Defensively it was a much better effort though. And Dwight knocked down 15-19 FT's, he's been absolutely fantastic the 1st 2 games of this series.

 

I still see us taking this series in 6. Game 3 will be pretty crucial though.

[DBAHO]

Michael Wilbon's an idiot. I remember when he called for SVG to be fired during the playoffs last season (when we made the ECF);

 

Don't waste time with the argument that it's only the Pacers, the seven-games-under-.500 Pacers, because the Pacers have a better roster by miles than fourth-seeded Orlando and play with a passion the Atlanta Hawks couldn't possibly understand. Whichever of those two the Bulls get in the second round won't come close to testing the Bulls the way the Pacers will over this series.

[Balta1701]

Michael Wilbon's an idiot. I remember when he called for SVG to be fired during the playoffs last season (when we made the ECF);

Sad thing is, he might well be right, the Pacers are throwing the kitchen sink at the Bulls right now, and Derrick Rose is just saying "no".

 

It's worth asking whether the rest of the Bulls are playing bad because they're tired/playing bad or because Indiana's playing some solid defense. I lean towards the latter, Indiana's playing a tough, hard-nosed series, but there might well be some battered Bulls in there.

 

It would really help the Bulls to polish this off in 4 and give Noah a full week to rest.

[southsider2k5]

I'd like to point out Rose has more blocks than James and more offensive rebounds.

 

Rose is good as a defender.

 

Blocks are a terrible way to measure defense. Getting beat to the basket and swating someone from behind doesn't make you a good defender.

[Steve9347]

But why act like it's not a debate? Steve goes into convulsions anytime you even insinuate Paul is in the same stratosphere. Even Rowand went suicide bomber crazy the other day.

I go into convulsions anytime you insinuate, or say, that you'd deal Rose for Paul. That's some of the dumbest s*** I've seen posted on this board, and there's lots of dumb s*** posted on this board.

[RockRaines]

It's been this way all season and is only getting worse.

Blah blah blah, I hate Bulls fans.

[bmags]

Blah blah blah, I hate Bulls fans.

 

OMG HOW DO YOU NOT CALL KEVIN LOVE A TOP 15 PLAYER AURGHTHRHG

[maggsmaggs]

Say whatever you want about DRtg (how team-oriented it is, etc), but Rose has one of the top marks for a PG in the game this year at 103. He's tied with CP3, good for second behind Rondo.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/league...nced_stats.html

That's just it though when you say how team-oriented it is. When Boozer is 11th in the league, you can see how flawed the statistic is. Rose has made leaps and bounds defensively though and has shut down the top PGs in the league.

 

As for the Paul vs. Rose debate, it amazes me how quickly people's minds change. Two months ago, it was Deron vs. Rose. Rose is the better player right now and there is no way I would even think about trading him for Chris Paul.

 

I will say Paul is close to Rose, but you guys are advocating for a guy who averaged just under 16 points per game and whose numbers are declining the past three years. That's not a trend you want.

[bmags]

That's just it though when you say how team-oriented it is. When Boozer is 11th in the league, you can see how flawed the statistic is. Rose has made leaps and bounds defensively though and has shut down the top PGs in the league.

 

As for the Paul vs. Rose debate, it amazes me how quickly people's minds change. Two months ago, it was Deron vs. Rose. Rose is the better player right now and there is no way I would even think about trading him for Chris Paul.

 

I will say Paul is close to Rose, but you guys are advocating for a guy who averaged just under 16 points per game and whose numbers are declining the past three years. That's not a trend you want.

 

And someone who has suffered major knee injury.

[Steve9347]

And someone who has suffered major knee injury.

vs. the 22 year old NBA MVP.