2010-2011 NBA Thread

[T R U]

lol Kobe.. its MJ and its not close

[chw42]

Kobe doesn't win anything without Shaq or Gasol. MJ needed Scottie, but I think it's pretty evident that Shaq is a more dominant player than Scottie and that the Gasol from the past three years is nearly as valuable as Pippen. And there's that stat of MJ being 6-0 in the NBA Finals.

[Rowand44]

Kobe doesn't win anything without Shaq or Gasol. MJ needed Scottie, but I think it's pretty evident that Shaq is a more dominant player than Scottie and that the Gasol from the past three years is nearly as valuable as Pippen. And there's that stat of MJ being 6-0 in the NBA Finals.

I was with you up until that part.

[chw42]

I was with you up until that part.

 

I never said he was as valuable, I said he was near. And there are advanced metrics to back this. Gasol's been worth 11+ win shares in the past three seasons with LA. His PER is around 22-23.

 

Pippen has a very similar stretch during the 6 championships, although he spread that out over 8 years.

[lostfan]

Okay, I'm a big Bulls homer, but Scottie is on legendary status and it's distorting his actual contributions... check out his actual career numbers and then look at Gasol's and tell me what you see. Plus, it's not like he proved himself as a leader when he had the opportunity or anything. I know that Gasol is a PF and Pippen was a SF but we're talking about them as the #2 options right?

 

Don't take my word for it.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01.html

[lostfan]

I get tired of Laker fans trying to compare Kobe to MJ. If the argument forms in front of me I'll either laugh, or openly mock the fact that the subject came up before pointing out that Kobe never came close to MJ in any category and then asking them to look it up and come back to me and prove that I was wrong (because they can't). Then they just start making up abstract s*** and I start laughing again.

[Soxbadger]

Kobe may end his career having a few all time statistics better than Jordan, but that is mainly due to the fact Kobe will end up playing more games.

 

I dont really think Kobe dominated his era, he was good, but Im not even sure that hes the best Laker of all time.

[Palehosefan]

Kobe may end his career having a few all time statistics better than Jordan, but that is mainly due to the fact Kobe will end up playing more games.

 

I dont really think Kobe dominated his era, he was good, but Im not even sure that hes the best Laker of all time.

 

Kobe has actually already played in 31 more games than MJ.

[lostfan]

Shaq dominated Kobe's era. Kobe happened to play on Shaq's team for about half the time.

[Balta1701]

Shaq dominated Kobe's era. Kobe happened to play on Shaq's team for about half the time.

Kobe had about 2 years post shaw and pre Lebron where he was clearly the best. He just had a weak team around him.

[Soxbadger]

I just am not sure that I would say Kobe was better than Magic, so that is the end of the argument right there.

[lostfan]

I recently had the audacity to suggest on a sports group that Kobe has already entered his physical decline due to age and isn't as effective as he used to be... man, you would've thought I said "Kobe sucks" based on the reaction. Kobe has a self-contained cult of personality behind him and I think these people were watching a different NBA playoffs than I just was.

[Balta1701]

I just am not sure that I would say Kobe was better than Magic, so that is the end of the argument right there.

He wasnt.

[iamshack]

He wasnt.

Hmm, I dunno about that....think about the teammates Magic had...

[SoxAce]

This little gem is from LakersGround, debating who's the GOAT, MJ or Kobe, enjoy...

 

Lakeshow818 wrote:

kobe is better to me...

 

I watched both of them play for their whole carreer...

 

kobe's only fault is he gets so sick of failure that he tries too hard to do it on his own....MJ would walk away at that point, or start yelling at his teammates to get their stuff together.....to the point where he would probably refuse to play...

 

kobe is not like that...he never quits and plays to the end, even with all his injuries........he tries to inspire his team, even though they may not be on board.

 

I would say top three players are

 

Magic Johnson

Kobe Bryant

Michael Jordan...

 

And yes in that order...I would take magic or kobe any day on my team over MJ....MJ was a selfish media whore...and the media pumped him up so much that Kobe will never compete..

 

people forget, while kobe was rising, he had the rape incident and then lebron came in shortly after....

 

kobe never had a chance to get the attention MJ did..But for so many years running, he had the hottest selling athletic jersey in the world...

 

The world loves kobe...the US doesn't for some reason...

 

Maybe he is too smart for American fans.

 

 

Fortunately, other Laker fans took him to task for this bit of idiocy, lol

 

Jesus...

 

lol Kobe.. its MJ and its not close

 

It isn't really.

 

PLAYOFFS

1. Michael Jordan* 28.59

2. George Mikan* 28.51

3. LeBron James 27.08

4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.16

5. Tim Duncan 25.74

6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69

7. Tracy McGrady 24.66

8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.66

9. Charles Barkley* 24.18

10. Dwyane Wade 24.04

 

 

REGULAR SEASON

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

 

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91

2. LeBron James 26.91

3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.59

4. David Robinson* 26.18

5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13

6. Dwyane Wade 25.67

7. Bob Pettit* 25.37

8. Tim Duncan 25.02

9. Neil Johnston* 24.72

10. Charles Barkley* 24.63

11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58

12. Magic Johnson* 24.11

 

MJ led in Playoff Win Shares 7 times (second was Russell at 5 times) The most for any player.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

 

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56

3. Magic Johnson* 32.63

4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46

5. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08

6. Tim Duncan 28.61

7. Bill Russell* 27.76

8. Julius Erving* 26.89

9. Jerry West* 26.75

10. Kobe Bryant 26.12

 

MJ led in Season Win Shares 9 times (Wilt and Kareem as well led in it 9 times) The most for any player.

 

MJ led in Playoff Offensive Win Shares 7 times (Jerry West 6 times, Magic 4 times) The most for any player.

 

MJ led in Offensive Win Shares 8 times (second was Kareem at 6 times) The most for any player.

 

Kareem led in Playoff PER 7 times. (MJ 6 times, though he led in it in 1986 with a 30 PER, so really 7 times and Wilt 6 times)

 

Kareem led in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes 9 times. (MJ 8 times and Wilt 8 times)

 

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2505

2. David Robinson* 0.2502

3. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2480

4. Neil Johnston* 0.2413

5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2284

6. Magic Johnson* 0.2249

7. LeBron James 0.2242

8. Tim Duncan 0.2190

9. Manu Ginobili 0.2167

10. Charles Barkley* 0.2163

 

MJ and Kareem both led in Win Shares per 48 Minutes in the playoffs 5 times, the most for any Player.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leader...8_career_p.html

 

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2553

2. George Mikan* 0.2541

3. LeBron James 0.2287

4. Magic Johnson* 0.2078

5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2059

6. Tim Duncan 0.2037

7. Jerry West* 0.2031

8. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.1998

9. David Robinson* 0.1992

 

MJ has 6 rings, he won the Finals MVP EVERY time...Kobe has 2 Finals MVP's..

 

League MVPs

 

MJ- 5

Kobe-1

 

Scoring Titles

 

MJ- 10

Kobe- 2

 

Times leading league in PER

 

MJ- 7 Times

Kobe- 0 times

 

 

Times being Top 3 in Win shares Per 48

 

MJ- 8 times

Kobe- 0 times

 

 

Win Shares per 48

 

MJ- 0.255

Kobe- 0.161

 

 

Career PER

 

MJ- 27.9 (Ranks #1 ALL TIME)

Kobe 23.6 (Ranks #17 ALL TIME)

 

Career win shares per 48

 

MJ- 0.251 (Ranks #1 ALL TIME)

Kobe- 0.188 (Ranks #26 ALL TIME)

 

Kobe and Jordan will always be compared because they both are about the same height, same build, similar style game and were coached by Phil Jackson. Both are explosive, great athleticism and were big time assassins. The big difference is the overall productivity of the two. Kobe for instance, in NONE of the seasons he won titles has led his own team in win shares on the season. Now that doesn't mean he wasn't the best, but when you are comparing someone to another all time great that always led his (or their) team(s) in overall production and most of the time the league that means a lot.

 

Gasol led the team in Win Shares and PER in the season and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares in 2010.

 

The Gasol vs Kobe comparison is like the Nash vs Amar'e one in 2005. Amar'e outproduced Nash, but Nash was the team's better player.

 

Same thing with Gasol and Kobe.

 

Difference here is this doesn't help Kobe's case when dealing with MJ, simply because whenever MJ won and whenever he was on the Bulls, he led the team in PER and Win Shares in both the season and playoffs. It's hard to compare Kobe to MJ, simply because not only does MJ have better numbers, but he has more accolades and is one of the top 4 most productive players ever. Not to mention he won all his titles as the best player in the NBA with hardly any debate about it. Another thing that means a lot is the franchises they went to. Kobe went to one of the most successful franchises in not only NBA History but sports history. Lakers had already won 11 titles and had been to 24 finals before Kobe ever even came to the franchise. Jordan went to a franchise that had done absolutely jack s***. Had 0 finals appearances and of course no titles and turned that franchise into a dynasty and one of the best in sports history. The Bulls were not a winning organization until MJ came along.

 

Kobe overall has a "chance" to be a top 5 player of all time, but he won't catch someone like MJ. His prime was not good enough.

[Steve9347]

Gerry just owned. Fantastic post.

[Felix]

Gerry just owned. Fantastic post.

I know this is a really stupid post to make, but I can't help myself: how on earth can you support an argument that is based significantly around Win Shares, but then still refuse to even consider the possibility that Paul is better than Rose right now?

 

I'm definitely going to check out of this thread for awhile after this, but I just wanted to point out the hilarity in that.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Felix

[Steve9347]

I know this is a really stupid post to make, but I can't help myself: how on earth can you support an argument that is based significantly around Win Shares, but then still refuse to even consider the possibility that Paul is better than Rose right now?

 

I'm definitely going to check out of this thread for awhile after this, but I just wanted to point out the hilarity in that.

Reading comprehension issues, much?

 

My argument was over trading the 22 year old MVP in Rose for the 26 year old with knee issues.

 

Plus, MVP so there. Go Bulls.

[RockRaines]

Ah yes, bring in the Paul vs Rose topic into an unrelated discussion, nice.

[Rowand44]

Look, Kobe isn't in Jordan's league but Pau was never the best player on that Lakers team, lets get that straight.

[Felix]

Ah yes, bring in the Paul vs Rose topic into an unrelated discussion, nice.

My point had nothing to do with Rose/Paul. My point was backing the use of advanced stats when they're convenient for you, while claiming they mean nothing in every other situation.

[chw42]

Fortunately, other Laker fans took him to task for this bit of idiocy, lol

 

 

Jesus...

 

 

 

It isn't really.

 

PLAYOFFS

1. Michael Jordan* 28.59

2. George Mikan* 28.51

3. LeBron James 27.08

4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.16

5. Tim Duncan 25.74

6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69

7. Tracy McGrady 24.66

8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.66

9. Charles Barkley* 24.18

10. Dwyane Wade 24.04

 

 

REGULAR SEASON

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

 

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91

2. LeBron James 26.91

3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.59

4. David Robinson* 26.18

5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13

6. Dwyane Wade 25.67

7. Bob Pettit* 25.37

8. Tim Duncan 25.02

9. Neil Johnston* 24.72

10. Charles Barkley* 24.63

11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58

12. Magic Johnson* 24.11

 

MJ led in Playoff Win Shares 7 times (second was Russell at 5 times) The most for any player.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

 

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56

3. Magic Johnson* 32.63

4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46

5. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08

6. Tim Duncan 28.61

7. Bill Russell* 27.76

8. Julius Erving* 26.89

9. Jerry West* 26.75

10. Kobe Bryant 26.12

 

MJ led in Season Win Shares 9 times (Wilt and Kareem as well led in it 9 times) The most for any player.

 

MJ led in Playoff Offensive Win Shares 7 times (Jerry West 6 times, Magic 4 times) The most for any player.

 

MJ led in Offensive Win Shares 8 times (second was Kareem at 6 times) The most for any player.

 

Kareem led in Playoff PER 7 times. (MJ 6 times, though he led in it in 1986 with a 30 PER, so really 7 times and Wilt 6 times)

 

Kareem led in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes 9 times. (MJ 8 times and Wilt 8 times)

 

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2505

2. David Robinson* 0.2502

3. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2480

4. Neil Johnston* 0.2413

5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2284

6. Magic Johnson* 0.2249

7. LeBron James 0.2242

8. Tim Duncan 0.2190

9. Manu Ginobili 0.2167

10. Charles Barkley* 0.2163

 

MJ and Kareem both led in Win Shares per 48 Minutes in the playoffs 5 times, the most for any Player.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leader...8_career_p.html

 

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2553

2. George Mikan* 0.2541

3. LeBron James 0.2287

4. Magic Johnson* 0.2078

5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2059

6. Tim Duncan 0.2037

7. Jerry West* 0.2031

8. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.1998

9. David Robinson* 0.1992

 

MJ has 6 rings, he won the Finals MVP EVERY time...Kobe has 2 Finals MVP's..

 

League MVPs

 

MJ- 5

Kobe-1

 

Scoring Titles

 

MJ- 10

Kobe- 2

 

Times leading league in PER

 

MJ- 7 Times

Kobe- 0 times

 

 

Times being Top 3 in Win shares Per 48

 

MJ- 8 times

Kobe- 0 times

 

 

Win Shares per 48

 

MJ- 0.255

Kobe- 0.161

 

 

Career PER

 

MJ- 27.9 (Ranks #1 ALL TIME)

Kobe 23.6 (Ranks #17 ALL TIME)

 

Career win shares per 48

 

MJ- 0.251 (Ranks #1 ALL TIME)

Kobe- 0.188 (Ranks #26 ALL TIME)

 

Kobe and Jordan will always be compared because they both are about the same height, same build, similar style game and were coached by Phil Jackson. Both are explosive, great athleticism and were big time assassins. The big difference is the overall productivity of the two. Kobe for instance, in NONE of the seasons he won titles has led his own team in win shares on the season. Now that doesn't mean he wasn't the best, but when you are comparing someone to another all time great that always led his (or their) team(s) in overall production and most of the time the league that means a lot.

 

Gasol led the team in Win Shares and PER in the season and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares in 2010.

 

The Gasol vs Kobe comparison is like the Nash vs Amar'e one in 2005. Amar'e outproduced Nash, but Nash was the team's better player.

 

Same thing with Gasol and Kobe.

 

Difference here is this doesn't help Kobe's case when dealing with MJ, simply because whenever MJ won and whenever he was on the Bulls, he led the team in PER and Win Shares in both the season and playoffs. It's hard to compare Kobe to MJ, simply because not only does MJ have better numbers, but he has more accolades and is one of the top 4 most productive players ever. Not to mention he won all his titles as the best player in the NBA with hardly any debate about it. Another thing that means a lot is the franchises they went to. Kobe went to one of the most successful franchises in not only NBA History but sports history. Lakers had already won 11 titles and had been to 24 finals before Kobe ever even came to the franchise. Jordan went to a franchise that had done absolutely jack s***. Had 0 finals appearances and of course no titles and turned that franchise into a dynasty and one of the best in sports history. The Bulls were not a winning organization until MJ came along.

 

Kobe overall has a "chance" to be a top 5 player of all time, but he won't catch someone like MJ. His prime was not good enough.

 

This is a Kalapse-quality post.

 

Jordan's advanced metrics are flat out stunning. The guy averaged 20 win shares during the 90s almost every season. LeBron and Kobe have NOTHING on him. Kobe topped out at around 15 and LeBron has yet to sustain near 20 win share numbers. That opportunity is also out the window since he's got two good scorers around him as well.

[iamshack]

Westbrook is just a massive headcase.

[lostfan]

Westbrook is just a massive headcase.

Got the NBA's best scorer on his team but he likes to chuck up a brick every 30 seconds because apparently someone has threatened to murder his entire family if he doesn't.

[iamshack]

Got the NBA's best scorer on his team but he likes to chuck up a brick every 30 seconds because apparently someone has threatened to murder his entire family if he doesn't.

Not only that, but Harden has been great as well, and he doesn't want to give either of them the ball.