White Sox in win mode, not rebuild

[bigruss]

Even if we assume Vizquel isn't going to match his .673 OPS next year...he was basically according to fangraphs a replacement level player this year. He's had 2 years in his recent career where he performed significantly worse than that, 2007 and 2008 in S.F. Both last year with the Rangers and this year with the Sox he gave approximately the same performance with the bats, and his numbers the last couple years were similar to his numbers from his mid 30's.

 

Between his versatility and ability to cover 3 defensive positions and the fact that he's probably going to be around replacement level with the bats, there's little reason not to bring him back, other than the fact that a crazed manager might try to make him a 150 game starter.

Vizquel cost almost $2 million last year, I don't see him being even worth that on the bench and of course Ozzie will over play him. Ozzie still doesn't see what's wrong with playing Vizquel at DH, even though the whole league, including Vizquel, was laughing at it. If Ozzie understands that Vizquel is part time, and they shore up the infield so that it forces Ozzie to not to play him as frequently as he would like.

[ScottyDo]

AGon is not going to happen this winter. The Sox don't have what it takes to get him anyway, unless Beckham or Sale is involved (and Sale can't even be traded yet). Coming off a winning year, I don't see the Padres moving him at all (unless they are truly blown away), until July 2011 when they are out of contention.

I dunno, you could make a similar case for us and Danks, yet most of us feel that trading Danks is a possibility because of his pending free agency, despite the fact that we have a winning record and could be considered contenders.

 

Granted, their offense depends more on A-Gon than our pitching depends on Danks.

 

I wouldn't rule it out is all.

[LittleHurt05]

I dunno, you could make a similar case for us and Danks, yet most of us feel that trading Danks is a possibility because of his pending free agency, despite the fact that we have a winning record and could be considered contenders.

 

Granted, their offense depends more on A-Gon than our pitching depends on Danks.

 

I wouldn't rule it out is all.

 

I agree. They also have to decide if 2010 is repeatable or if it was a fluke. Look at their rotation. Mat Latos is a stud, but Jon Garland? Kevin Correia? Clayton Richard isn't projected to be that much better than this season. I'm not a pro on their minor league system, but they don't seem to have too many up and coming stud hitters. Their bullpen was lights out but can all those guys repeat that? They will probably will be due arbitration raises this year too.

 

You hate to trade him in the offseason, but if you can get a much larger haul, you can't dismiss the idea if your odds of competing arent the greatest.

[southsider2k5]

Vizquel cost almost $2 million last year, I don't see him being even worth that on the bench and of course Ozzie will over play him. Ozzie still doesn't see what's wrong with playing Vizquel at DH, even though the whole league, including Vizquel, was laughing at it. If Ozzie understands that Vizquel is part time, and they shore up the infield so that it forces Ozzie to not to play him as frequently as he would like.

 

$1.375 million if you want to be exact.

[bigruss]

$1.375 million if you want to be exact.

I thought there were incentives, maybe I'm wrong.

[Thad Bosley]

$1.375 million if you want to be exact.

And next year he would definitely be worth that as the option to rest the rookie Morel against certain tough right-handed pitchers, while losing nothing at 3rd base defensively. Add to that his ability to give both Alexei and Gordon the occasional break (and again, providing high-caliber defense in the process), and you have yourself the right man as your primary back-up infielder.

[NorthSideSox72]

And next year he would definitely be worth that as the option to rest the rookie Morel against certain tough right-handed pitchers, while losing nothing at 3rd base defensively. Add to that his ability to give both Alexei and Gordon the occasional break (and again, providing high-caliber defense in the process), and you have yourself the right man as your primary back-up infielder.

Between Vizquel (3B, SS, 2B), Teahen (1B, DH, RF), Castro © and probably De Aza (OF generally, PR), it seems like the Sox already have a bench that works just fine. Not really an area of concern.

 

[Balta1701]

Between Vizquel (3B, SS, 2B), Teahen (1B, DH, RF), Castro © and probably De Aza (OF generally, PR), it seems like the Sox already have a bench that works just fine. Not really an area of concern.

Isn't Castro a free agent as well?

[joeynach]

The Twins organizational philosophy when it comes to starting pitchers is throw strikes, keep the ball down, and throw more strikes. It may produce "B rate starting pitching," but that B rate starting pitching has helped them win 6 division titles in 9 seasons. And, in case you were unaware, they didn't have any Punto's or Harris's in the lineup in the playoffs - their weakest hitter was probably Denard Span.

 

They went to the post season last year with Punto and Harris in the lineup and opened this year with Harris a 3B again, if it weren't for a Feb signing of Hudson, Punto would have been their starting 2B again.

[joeynach]

AGon is not going to happen this winter. The Sox don't have what it takes to get him anyway, unless Beckham or Sale is involved (and Sale can't even be traded yet). Coming off a winning year, I don't see the Padres moving him at all (unless they are truly blown away), until July 2011 when they are out of contention.

 

Plus why would u trade significant internal talent for a 1 year of Agon before he hits FA and signs a massive contract.

[NorthSideSox72]

Isn't Castro a free agent as well?

I thought he was under a team option, no? Maybe I am not remembering. Maybe we get Donny Lucy instead (who would be an improvement defensively, but probably a big drop offensively).

 

 

[Jerksticks]

Plus why would u trade significant internal talent for a 1 year of Agon before he hits FA and signs a massive contract.

 

 

I agree I think. Danks should be used to get a younger bat. How much is Danks really worth? I think it depends on if GMs think he can get even better. Right now I'd say he's at the top of the 2nd tier of pitching, just behind aces. For the teams that miss out on Cliff Lee, Danks is a real nice consolation prize. Every team would love a Danks. We can't screw this trade up if we make it.

[Balta1701]

I thought he was under a team option, no? Maybe I am not remembering. Maybe we get Donny Lucy instead (who would be an improvement defensively, but probably a big drop offensively).

Kap's document says you're correct, $1.2 million team option.

[joeynach]

I agree I think. Danks should be used to get a younger bat. How much is Danks really worth? I think it depends on if GMs think he can get even better. Right now I'd say he's at the top of the 2nd tier of pitching, just behind aces. For the teams that miss out on Cliff Lee, Danks is a real nice consolation prize. Every team would love a Danks. We can't screw this trade up if we make it.

 

How much is really out there that you would want in return for Danks. Sure you could go after someone's top prospects, but most likely if you trade Danks you want a young talented MLB player, like an Andre Either and such. But there are not that many of Either types out there.

[Jordan4life_2007]

How much is really out there that you would want in return for Danks. Sure you could go after someone's top prospects, but most likely if you trade Danks you want a young talented MLB player, like an Andre Either and such. But there are not that many of Either types out there.

 

Not a big Ethier fan. His defense is deplorable.

[Milkman delivers]

Wait what? I'm not seeing what you're trying to point out.

 

Your signature.

[Jordan4life_2007]

So, a guy with a 10 year track record, who has made a lot more good deals than bad... and the Teahen extension and Jackson/Hudson trade have caused you to lose all faith? I mean, I agree those were both bad deals, but I also think you are missing the bigger picture in your evaluation.

 

KW's biggest weakness, really, has been his inability to get the farm stronger. There has been some recent improvement in the drafts, but overall, the past 5 or more years, the Sox system has been terrible. And yet, the Sox are an above average organization in terms of success on the field. So its pretty damn obvious that Kenny must be doing better than the average GM (far better at aspects other than prospect development), since he's having to do this without a good farm system.

 

Seems to me, its not time to jump ship on Kenny, at least not yet. Because the odds are very good that whomever you get to replace him will be worse.

 

Both Swisher trades. The Javy trade in which it looks like the only valuable piece we got back was a utility guy. The Brandon Allen for Tony Pena swap? Even Hawk would admit KW is in a massive slump right now.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Jordan4life

[bigruss]

Your signature.

Haha good catch, I will step off my high horse to fix that.

[NorthSideSox72]

Both Swisher trades. The Javy trade in which it looks like the only valuable piece we got back was a utility guy. The Brandon Allen for Tony Pena swap? Even Hawk would admit KW is in a massive slump right now.

The Swisher trade to acquire him, I agree. The one to get rid of him, well, there wasn't a lot else that could be done. Allen for Pena, not so sure yet, let's see how Allen does. Javy trade we got Flowers, our probable catcher of the future, so I'm not nearly ready to see that as a loss just yet.

 

He's made some bad moves, but a lot more good than bad. The problem with the front office of the Sox under KW, again, is the prospect development end. He's been far weaker there than with the major league moves.

 

[Jerksticks]

The Swisher trade to acquire him, I agree. The one to get rid of him, well, there wasn't a lot else that could be done. Allen for Pena, not so sure yet, let's see how Allen does. Javy trade we got Flowers, our probable catcher of the future, so I'm not nearly ready to see that as a loss just yet.

 

He's made some bad moves, but a lot more good than bad. The problem with the front office of the Sox under KW, again, is the prospect development end. He's been far weaker there than with the major league moves.

 

I agree with your post except the bolded part. I think we are starting to see the fruits of better development. The problem is that we are not afforded the patience that other clubs might have because our pitching is built to WIN NOW. I think out of Morel, Beckham, Viciedo, Sale and Flowers we may have some really good players. I wish we could sit back and watch them develop without the constant pressure of lofty expectations.

 

A side opinion of mine is that Tank needs to be playing in the big leagues for good, I just don't know where.

[sircaffey]

Both Swisher trades. The Javy trade in which it looks like the only valuable piece we got back was a utility guy. The Brandon Allen for Tony Pena swap? Even Hawk would admit KW is in a massive slump right now.

Agreed. I think Kenny would look a lot worse if he actually had a decent farm system to trade from. I think we'd be laughing at how bad his moves were if he had a system like the Rangers.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I hate the first Swisher trade and I hate Swisher, but these moves don't judge the quality of a GM the way the Teahen and Pierre deals (bad) or the Rios claim, Sale drafting, Thornton trade (good) etc. do.

 

Swisher has actual ability and had a pretty sick statistical year in a hitters hell prior to acquiring him. Therefore, Swisher cost a lot in talent because he was young, signed to what seemed at the time to be a cheap extension, and theoretically because of his past promised a much better future. Kenny actually probably traded an all-around below league average starting CF, a #3 LH starter, and a potential setup man for a guy he thought would help anchor the lineup for a few years. In terms of talent (because you can't just grade off of pure hindsight, I mean that's stupid) Kenny probably thought he was buying low since Sweeney's power hadn't come, DLS had a troubling motion and was far away, and Gio was a good but not great SP prospect. Now, completely outside of Kenny's control, Swisher went and had a dogs*** year where he wormed and fake smiled his way into Ozzie's doghouse, and then in the SAME OFFSEASON - an offseason which apparently NO ONE saw coming - Swisher's supposed sweetheart contract took a nose dive into potential albatross territory. Remember how Orlando Cabrera turned down arb on something like a $9M contract only to sign for crap around ST? Remember how Orlando Hudson turned down something like $10-12M per over multiple years from the DBacks only to take a s***ty one year deal with the Dodgers? Kenny unloaded that deal because nobody wanted that fake-ass prick in the clubhouse, especially at a salary that was looking nearly unmovable (remember that the Braves thought it was a bad deal and didn't want to take that on either).

 

OTOH, Pierre's game was very well known and there was no reason to suspect him having an excellent year or anything like that. I'll admit he did better than I thought he did, but he's still not a lead-off hitter. Teahen had never accomplished jack and was a no-defense nontender candidate. Terrible move. But then Rios had all the ability in the world and had proven it, and Kenny made a wonderful move there. Kenny saw the talent in Thornton. If the rest of baseball knew that Chris Sale could do what he did for us then there isn't a snowball's chance in hell he falls to us, signing demands or not. Those are the kinds of moves that should define Kenny. The Swisher deal however just went bad on him and could have gone bad on any other GM out there. Jumping on Kenny for that would be like jumping all over the Braves for the McLouth deal, which looked solid at the time for both sides but might end up being pretty bad given the contract.

[caulfield12]

It's going to take another 2004-05 offseason (and we can't jettison Lee/Ordonez/Valentin and reallocate those resources) to be competitive.

 

We're hemmed in by Teahen, Linebrink and Juan Pierre (to an extent)...

 

Basically, the Twins have to decide to pull back on spending, not re-sign Pavano (definitely), not replace Pavano with an even better frontline starter (they will undoubtedly rue not putting together a package of Ramos, another minor leaguer and/or Slowey/Blackburn/Baker for Lee), for Morneau/Neshek/Nathan (2 of the 3) not to come back 100%, losing Cuddyer/Guerrier/Rauch, etc.

 

They can replace Orlando Hudson and probably non-tender Hardy and instead throw Hughes and Casilla out there to save $10-15 million.

 

It's going to take a fallback from the Twins (75% chance) more than I believe that we can improve our team dramatically (25% chance) going into 2011.

 

 

 

 

[witesoxfan]

The only thing that was wrong with the Juan Pierre deal was that it was made with the intentions of having Juan Pierre leadoff, when in all reality, he should be hitting 9th. The White Sox gave up 2 borderline arms in Ely and Link.

[chw42]

It's going to take another 2004-05 offseason (and we can't jettison Lee/Ordonez/Valentin and reallocate those resources) to be competitive.

 

We're hemmed in by Teahen, Linebrink and Juan Pierre (to an extent)...

 

Basically, the Twins have to decide to pull back on spending, not re-sign Pavano (definitely), not replace Pavano with an even better frontline starter (they will undoubtedly rue not putting together a package of Ramos, another minor leaguer and/or Slowey/Blackburn/Baker for Lee), for Morneau/Neshek/Nathan (2 of the 3) not to come back 100%, losing Cuddyer/Guerrier/Rauch, etc.

 

They can replace Orlando Hudson and probably non-tender Hardy and instead throw Hughes and Casilla out there to save $10-15 million.

 

It's going to take a fallback from the Twins (75% chance) more than I believe that we can improve our team dramatically (25% chance) going into 2011.

God I do hope that happens.

 

Hardy's one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. Getting rid of him to a non-tender would be really stupid...