Edwin Jackson Megathread...

[nitetrain8601]

I propose mods clean up the other threads and place all postings relating to these two in here. I saw in one of them, people are sick of the arguments back and forth. I do agree there was 4 or 5 threads that turned into this chatter pretty quickly. So to clean up a bit, just dump everything in here.

 

 

 

PS Daniel Hudson is teh suck

 

[Quin]

 

1 Year/$8M, Boras Client, All-Star

VERSUS

 

6 Years Team Control, Good Potential

 

/thread.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Jackson = better now

Kenny = wants to be better now

Ozzie = wants to be better now

Uncle Jerry = wants to be better now

The majority of fans = also want to be better now

6 years = next year and then we'll think about that when the time comes

$8M vs. $450K = the difference between a veteran with #1 stuff and a guy other GMs didn't have a world of confidence in longterm

 

[greg775]

I'd prefer Hudson but I don't want to look back any more.

Jackson is here and I hope he has a great year.

[Kalapse]

Jackson = better now

Kenny = wants to be better now

Ozzie = wants to be better now

Uncle Jerry = wants to be better now

The majority of fans = also want to be better now

6 years = next year and then we'll think about that when the time comes

$8M vs. $450K = the difference between a veteran with #1 stuff and a guy other GMs didn't have a world of confidence in longterm

This is a confusing negative when you're comparing him to a pitcher who's on his 5th team in 8 years; 3 of which featured only 19 total outings.

[Jordan4life_2007]

This is a confusing negative when you're comparing him to a pitcher who's on his 5th team in 8 years; 3 of which featured only 19 total outings.

 

It's pretty f***ing useless. "Hudson is doing well in the NL with no pressure." But of course let's ignore the fact that Jackson failed miserably in the same environment.

[GreatScott82]

Jackson looked pretty damn good for us when he got here. He had a few iffy games but for the most part he can be dominating when his stuff is on. I cant wait to see what he can do during a full season in a White Sox uniform.

[hogan873]

The money is the only thing I don't like about the deal. I think Jackson is a better pitcher now and may be the better pitcher years from now when you look back. Regardless, I agree with what greg said. I hope he has a kick ass year in 2011.

[Balta1701]

You know, I actually came up with a point on this matter that I don't think anyone has brought up before.

 

A number of people have floated the idea that Edwin Jackson is still tradeable this offseason as a justification for this move, and frankly, I've scoffed at it, on the grounds that we're not going to get anything near the value of a young rotation-ready starting pitcher for him.

 

What occurred to me is that we've actually seen what we get in a deal like it would take to trade Jackson before. We've got a pitcher coming off an indifferent season, with a better season in his rearview mirror, a salary close to $10 million, some playoff experience, 1 year left on his contract, an overall ERA in the low to mid 4's, a FIP in the same range, was originally a fairly highly touted prospect who never fully lived up to that billing.

 

You know who we traded that fit that description exactly? Jon Garland, pre-2008, who we dealt for Orlando Cabrera.

 

At the time, I think that looked like a pretty fair deal overall. The Sox filled a position player need and got an extra draft pick out of it.

 

However, look at what we had to take back. A guy with 1 year left on his contract, $8 million or so in salary, and we had to practically threaten him to get him to not accept arbitration.

 

I think that's a pretty good comparison. Jackson may have slightly more demand than JG because he throws a higher velocity 4 seamer, but their salaries and performance is similar overall, and Jackson has the added negative of having already been dumped unceremoniously by 3 teams in the past year. If we're looking to trade him, I think that's the kind of deal we'd wind up with; we're not getting some young stud back for him, we're getting someone else's expensive piece.

[Dick Allen]

Jackson was real good with the Sox this year and pretty mediocre/bad with AZ. Hudson was awesome with AZ and pretty mediocre/bad with the Sox. I would really wait before judging Daniel a perennial all star and first ballot HOFer. He'll probably be good, but there is no reason to think Jackson won't be good. He certainly outperformed Javy Vazquez when Javy was a White Sox and I seem to recall a lot of posters saying Javy's $11 million a year contract was a fair deal and market rate for what he provided. Lets just see how this plays out. I believe Jackson with have a lower ERA than Hudson in 2011.

 

That said, money is a factor. KW is already crying about potential budget restraints. Yes, the same guy who added Jackson and Manny Ramirez is hinting he may not be able to afford the team he wants. Personally, the trade didn't really bother me at the time and still really doesn't, at least performance-wise. Hudson wasn't performing with the Sox like he did in AZ. I'm amazed no one ripped the pitching coach because certainly if it was a hitter we know where all the "blame" would be placed. It just goes to show that different situations produced different results. Its not fantasy baseball. Chances are the Sox are going to need pitchers. Jackson has a ton of talent, more than Hudson. If they can harness it, he can have a Loaisa 2003 year at any time. If you pro-rate his 11 White Sox starts for a full season, he would have been the Sox best starter in 2010. There's really nothing to complain about. He's worth the money, and if he does leave, the Sox will get what everyone around here craves..........draft picks.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Dick Allen

[jphat007]

It's pretty f***ing useless. "Hudson is doing well in the NL with no pressure." But of course let's ignore the fact that Jackson failed miserably in the same environment.

 

What does it matter what Jackson did in Arizona? So he doesn't play well for teams that are awful and under no pressure.

 

Jackson pitched well here, in pressure, in the AL. Hudson, in a small sample size, did not.

 

But please do not presume to tell all of us that pitching in the NL, under ZERO pressure, is like pitching on a winning team in the AL that is going for the playoffs. It is not. Lots of players do well in September when nothing is on the line.

[chetkincaid]

Jackson = better now

Kenny = wants to be better now

Ozzie = wants to be better now

Uncle Jerry = wants to be better now

The majority of fans = also want to be better now

6 years = next year and then we'll think about that when the time comes

$8M vs. $450K = the difference between a veteran with #1 stuff and a guy other GMs didn't have a world of confidence in longterm

 

This post is spot on. Most of us seem to forget that we were right in the middle of a race with the twins for the AL Central crown and a trip to the playoffs when Jackson was acquired. I for one, felt a lot better with a proven veteran like Jackson going in a big game than I would have felt about an unproven youngster that could have poo pooed on the mound in that big game.

 

Plus Coop has probably forgotten more about pitching than any of us could ever know, and HE wanted Jackson. In Coop I trust.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Chet Kincaid

[elrockinMT]

The money is the only thing I don't like about the deal. I think Jackson is a better pitcher now and may be the better pitcher years from now when you look back. Regardless, I agree with what greg said. I hope he has a kick ass year in 2011.

 

 

I agree that Edwin Jackson is here and hopefully working in ST with the other pichers and Don Cooper will keep him on the ball. As far as tyhe money is concerned: there are a lot of bad contracts that have been negotiated by teams that are now causing problems. Salaries were out of control and still are for the most part. But, that's another story

[southsider2k5]

The thing is, there would be just as much complaining if we had held on to Hudson and Hudson pitched like he had the first few starts of the season.

[LittleHurt05]

The thing is, there would be just as much complaining if we had held on to Hudson and Hudson pitched like he had the first few starts of the season.

 

"The minor league system sucks so bad!!!! Hudson is our top prospect and he is worthless."

[BigSqwert]

Plus Coop has probably forgotten more about pitching than any of us could ever know, and HE wanted Jackson. In Coop I trust.

 

I personally feel Coop is highly overrated. He finds a few gems here and there and makes them better but there are just as many guys who he can't do anything with or might even pitch better with other coaching staffs.

[chetkincaid]

The thing is, there would be just as much complaining if we had held on to Hudson and Hudson pitched like he had the first few starts of the season.

 

EXACTLY!!! Especially if he would have pitched in one of those "need to sweep twins" home games that the Sox lost. People would have been calling for KWs head.

[Milkman delivers]

I feel awful for Hudson each time I see somebody say "he was terrible with us," since the guy pitched 3 games. Christ, it was 3 games straight out of the minors.

 

Can somebody post the stats from each of those 3 games?

Edited October 14, 2010 by Milkman delivers

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

This is a confusing negative when you're comparing him to a pitcher who's on his 5th team in 8 years; 3 of which featured only 19 total outings.

The Dodgers rushed him and then gave up on him. The Rays had confidence and Jackson improved tremendously under them, but it made no sense to pay Jackson through the arb system when they had so much top-level pitching coming up the pipeline (an extremely uncommon situation in MLB BTW). The Tigers got him and Jackson continued to get better there as well, but the Tigers were up to their necks in bad contracts and had to cut salary somewhere, so they traded him and Granderson since they couldn't just dump Magglio, Robertson, Bonderman, etc. on anyone. Jackson got better and better until his first half in AZ, and then they went into salary destructo mode and were still able to trade him for a big return after giving up a lot to get him in the first place.

 

I don't think confidence is really the issue here. It's very rare to see the type of young pitching depth the Rays have and had at the time, and then the other two deals were made when ownership mandated a cut in payroll. Saying Jackson was moved because of a lack of confidence is just an assumption, however we know KW was shot down on several Hudson deals because a lot of other evaluators didn't think the ceiling was there. Ceiling was never a question with Jackson.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I personally feel Coop is highly overrated. He finds a few gems here and there and makes them better but there are just as many guys who he can't do anything with or might even pitch better with other coaching staffs.

The guys Coop can't help more often than not seem helpless in the first place. David Aarrrrrrrrrrrrrrdsma still sucks for example.

[sircaffey]

I wish we had a few Aardsmas.

[greg775]

The thing is, there would be just as much complaining if we had held on to Hudson and Hudson pitched like he had the first few starts of the season.

 

Maybe, but I think reasonable people realize or should realize not everybody comes up and dominates right away. It's impossible to hold an argument about Hudson anyway, because way too many people will just dispel any NL pitcher's performance as the fact it's happening in the NL. So it's an argument not worth getting into. Too many people consider the NL a pathetic league and they simply write off performances there as flukes.

[SoxAce]

Hated the deal since day one. Not too many prospects I fall in love with in our org., but loved Hudson. If the sox can re-sign Jackson, it'll be much easier to stomach the deal. Good luck with that KW.

[BigSqwert]

Hated the deal since day one. Not too many prospects I fall in love with in our org., but loved Hudson. If the sox can re-sign Jackson, it'll be much easier to stomach the deal. Good luck with that KW.

Best case right now would be that we extend Jackson another year over the winter, for a reasonable price, and he dominates for 2 years with us.

[striker]

This post is spot on. Most of us seem to forget that we were right in the middle of a race with the twins for the AL Central crown and a trip to the playoffs when Jackson was acquired. I for one, felt a lot better with a proven veteran like Jackson going in a big game than I would have felt about an unproven youngster that could have poo pooed on the mound in that big game.

 

Plus Coop has probably forgotten more about pitching than any of us could ever know, and HE wanted Jackson. In Coop I trust.

Agreed. People also forget that Kenny wasn't just planning to acquire Jackson, that he intended to flip him and that didn't happen. It is what it is. I'm looking forward to him pitching in 2011.